A or AA that is the Question

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

should schools that graduate over 600 kids be allowed to opt down ??

Poll ended at Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:59 am

yes
3
18%
no
14
82%
 
Total votes: 17

old goalie85
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A or AA that is the Question

Post by old goalie85 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:59 am

Forest Lake will be single A at both pee-wee and bantam next year. After having six squirt teams last year. (what a joke) !!!!

Docs_88
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Post by Docs_88 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:04 am

All they are doing is hoping for some short term success while significantly hurting the HS program. If I was the HS coach I would run away fast!

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:57 am

I can't blame Forest Lake. Roseville (HS enrollment: 2,166) and Mounds View / Irondale (combined HS enrollment: over 3,400) started this by playing single A last year and distorting the D2 standings, making Regions, getting 3rd in state, etc.

Docs_88
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Post by Docs_88 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:23 pm

Didn't Roseville field a AA Bantam team last year even though they only had 3 Bantam teams total? Think they even won a tourney. Same with St. Paul? In D2 every association fielded a AA Bantam team except MVI. This will only serve to continue to drive out the kids that want to compete at the top level possible. FL is telling these kids as a group they aren't good enough to compete with their peers.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:39 pm

Their PeeWee AA team was 9-27-11 last year. 4 of those wins were against A teams.

Bantam AA was 12-33-7. 6 of those wins were against A teams.

Looks like 5 Squirt teams, but 3 of them were C teams.

Enrollment doesn't mean anything in Hockey anymore.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:00 pm

Docs_88 wrote:Didn't Roseville field a AA Bantam team last year even though they only had 3 Bantam teams total? Think they even won a tourney. Same with St. Paul? In D2 every association fielded a AA Bantam team except MVI. This will only serve to continue to drive out the kids that want to compete at the top level possible. FL is telling these kids as a group they aren't good enough to compete with their peers.
You are correct re: Roseville. I was looking only at their PeeWee team. Apologies.

MWS coach
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Post by MWS coach » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:30 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:Their PeeWee AA team was 9-27-11 last year. 4 of those wins were against A teams.

Bantam AA was 12-33-7. 6 of those wins were against A teams.

Looks like 5 Squirt teams, but 3 of them were C teams.

Enrollment doesn't mean anything in Hockey anymore.
Enrollment might not mean anything at youth, but fast fwd a few years for these players and it does when they get to HS. Play A at youth but be forced to move up to AA at HS based o. Enrollment ...not a scenario that builds for success at HS level. Play A at bantams as a 9th grader, then try and play AA varsity as a 10th grader is a huge step. Sure top players may be able to make the jump, if they stick around. Good thing there isn't any private school options on the east side of town! :D

Docs_88
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Post by Docs_88 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:37 am

[Their PeeWee AA team was 9-27-11 last year. 4 of those wins were against A teams.

Bantam AA was 12-33-7. 6 of those wins were against A teams.

Looks like 5 Squirt teams, but 3 of them were C teams.

Enrollment doesn't mean anything in Hockey anymore.]

Can't argue the records of those teams but MWS hit my point on the head. Unless you are going to eliminate the varsity program and just play JV/Junior gold these kids are going to have to play the other associations top players eventually. Sure they may get a few more puck touches and gain some confidence playing the 2nd tier of kids but then what? The pace of play and skill level is WAY different between A and AA or A-B.[/quote]

flpucknut
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Post by flpucknut » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:47 am

Really depends on your motivations and goals as a program

I'm speaking from first hand experience here, as my son was on the AA PeeWee team last year. Indeed 9-27-11 isn't a good year record wise. But I guarantee you those boys improved at a much more rapid rate than if we had played an A schedule all year.

I get the motivation, I do and can listen and understand both sides to an argument. While you certainly learn from losing, I think you can also gain a lot from winning and having some success. I wonder if the kids were polled to see their opinions.

"Would you rather play a lower level and have some more wins, or play at the top level and compete against the best, even if it meant not very many wins?" I'd be very very interested to hear what the boys would say given the choice.....

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:54 pm

flpucknut wrote:Really depends on your motivations and goals as a program

I'm speaking from first hand experience here, as my son was on the AA PeeWee team last year. Indeed 9-27-11 isn't a good year record wise. But I guarantee you those boys improved at a much more rapid rate than if we had played an A schedule all year.

I get the motivation, I do and can listen and understand both sides to an argument. While you certainly learn from losing, I think you can also gain a lot from winning and having some success. I wonder if the kids were polled to see their opinions.

"Would you rather play a lower level and have some more wins, or play at the top level and compete against the best, even if it meant not very many wins?" I'd be very very interested to hear what the boys would say given the choice.....
From my experience the kids who understand the game and are serious about Hockey will pick the latter at a very high rate. The kids who aren't will probably lean towards the former but some will also pick the latter.

JSR
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Post by JSR » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:30 pm

Winning is a learned skill... as is losing... something to think about :idea:

MWS coach
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Post by MWS coach » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:39 pm

JSR wrote:Winning is a learned skill... as is losing... something to think about :idea:
So is playing the game at a fast pace and leaning to make quick decisions with minimal time and space.

A kid that plays BA as a 9th grader, then moves on to HS as a 10th grader is going to be challenged to keep pace. Not talking about the Elite superstar but the third liner that may be needed due to depth. I agree with what you are saying, but playing down to instill a winning attitude, but having to move up to AA at HS is a huge jump.

Not picking on Coon Rapids, just an example, typically play A at youth level with some success. Take a look at recent HS results. Winning at A in youth has not translated into success at AA HS.

Scout716
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Post by Scout716 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:33 am

Question: can't A play AA teams anyway? does it really only matter at Playoff, regional and State play? kids / parents have to have some success with wins before they lose interest in the sport. Case in point maybe Forest Lake HS football. During this stretch of, not being as successful as they would like to be, they have lost players, kids switched sports or just prepared for their "other" main sport and did not play football. What ever keeps the kids involved and playing I'm all for. I don't know for sure but my guess is the AA teams were looking for A teams to set most their scrimmages up against anyway.

MWS coach
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Post by MWS coach » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:47 pm

Scout716 wrote:Question: can't A play AA teams anyway? does it really only matter at Playoff, regional and State play? kids / parents have to have some success with wins before they lose interest in the sport. Case in point maybe Forest Lake HS football. During this stretch of, not being as successful as they would like to be, they have lost players, kids switched sports or just prepared for their "other" main sport and did not play football. What ever keeps the kids involved and playing I'm all for. I don't know for sure but my guess is the AA teams were looking for A teams to set most their scrimmages up against anyway.
A and AA can play each other. Typically A and AA do not play each other during district play. Most tournaments are either A or AA ( a little cross and certainly can, but not typical in most tournaments). From what I have seen, most AA teams seek other AA teams to scrimmage as they typically result in better games.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:51 pm

AA is A
A is B-1


:idea: just for old times sake

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:47 pm

Three kids returning from BAA. [1forward,1D,1goalie] I think 8 to ten return from single A. maybe as many as 4/5/6 pee-wee AA that can hplay at that level. It only takes 5/6 kids from each grade soph,jr,sr. to put together a good varsity.The thing that killed me was the parents clapping at the board meeting when Bdirector announced his decision to go A. Some of these same clowns have squirts and mites. I grew up in FL and we played B. Every year it came down to us and Cenn. for D10 champ. [they only had B as well.] when we got to high school we got crushed by North Suburban teams that played A. Anoka/Coons/Fridley was strong/Columbia Heights/Elk/Blaine Ramsey and kellog pulled two teams of of roseville. You get the deal. Instead of clapping those rockets scientists should have been crying.

dlow
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Post by dlow » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:04 pm

old goalie85 wrote:Three kids returning from BAA. [1forward,1D,1goalie] I think 8 to ten return from single A. maybe as many as 4/5/6 pee-wee AA that can hplay at that level. It only takes 5/6 kids from each grade soph,jr,sr. to put together a good varsity.The thing that killed me was the parents clapping at the board meeting when Bdirector announced his decision to go A. Some of these same clowns have squirts and mites. I grew up in FL and we played B. Every year it came down to us and Cenn. for D10 champ. [they only had B as well.] when we got to high school we got crushed by North Suburban teams that played A. Anoka/Coons/Fridley was strong/Columbia Heights/Elk/Blaine Ramsey and kellog pulled two teams of of roseville. You get the deal. Instead of clapping those rockets scientists should have been crying.
They should play at the level they will be competitive at. Unfortunately, with 5 levels, associations adjusting one way or the other yearly, new coaches and evaluaters, etc., this is a moving target that can be missed fairly easily. The fall-back is play down to be safe. Whats hard is when its realized a different level should have been picked mid-november then its already too late. The effect of "playing down" can be overrated as a detriment because there are pluses for development there as well but from what you lay out about who is coming back and who is moving up they certainly would seem to have what it takes to have a good AA team, and you didn't mention B1 players, which the successful first year ones from last year could transition without too much difficulty to AA.

nobody
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Post by nobody » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:38 pm

Its real easy to say play the top level...

The truth is most of the time the coaching is the weak spot keeping a team from playing AA. Unfortunately it often the coaching 2 years ago that stunts the mental side of the game, or fails to develop sufficient numbers of players to compete.

How many times have you seen a player that was given every effort, and become a top player suddenly realize that they are stuck on a team with no hope because nobody else was developed.......

Numbers mean almost nothing--long term development plan, execution, and retention is the key to AA hockey. If you have 5 sq teams and no AA PW hockey don't blame the kids.

Docs_88
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Post by Docs_88 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:08 pm

Agree with Nobody, these kids have had a string of parent coaches all the way up. All of these coaches are well meaning and each has their strong points but every year its a different coach and there is absolutely no consistency. I understand that they would have new coaches between levels but FL has never been able to find coaches that will stick around and be a constant influence. It's July and the CSC doesn't even know what their budget is for hiring a Bantam coach. How are they supposed to find someone?!!!

Two of the three returning players OG mentioned are leaving or have left already. Same old story, top players leave small associations for better teams/associations.



](*,)

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:49 am

ttt

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:55 pm

Yes One of O.G. sons. Can't beat them join them. STA football has looked great so far. Hockey is an unknown. Not driving to sibley for practice/games. Younger brother first year bantam since it makes no difference in development may have returning AA son play wherever youn ger boy plays C/D/F whatever right ?? Maybe even get a trophy. :roll:

The Exiled One
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Post by The Exiled One » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:41 pm

MVI is going AA at bantam this year. Still A at peewee. Five teams at each level, from what I've heard.

Unfortunately, it looks like a stud from the peewee a team last year (TC, look him up if you're that interested) will be taking off for the Gentry Galaxy. It's a shame really. Between him, GB, and the goalie EK, the bantam AA team would have been pretty solid. Not sure if it's because of the bantam head coach or other reasons.

Hopefully Irondale can bring him back into the fold when the stars begin to align. IHS could put together their first relevant team since the early 80's!

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:26 am

The Exiled One wrote:MVI is going AA at bantam this year. Still A at peewee. Five teams at each level, from what I've heard.

Unfortunately, it looks like a stud from the peewee a team last year (TC, look him up if you're that interested) will be taking off for the Gentry Galaxy. It's a shame really. Between him, GB, and the goalie EK, the bantam AA team would have been pretty solid. Not sure if it's because of the bantam head coach or other reasons.

Hopefully Irondale can bring him back into the fold when the stars begin to align. IHS could put together their first relevant team since the early 80's!
I doubt it's because of the coach, and more about what is offered at Gentry. He's also played with the Gentry boys on the Gradient team this spring/summer.

Is he the only MV/I Bantam that's going to play at Gentry this winter? There were two other kids at Gentry that played on the MV/I PeeWee A team last winter, both are big-time scorers.

The Exiled One
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Post by The Exiled One » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:47 am

jg2112 wrote:Is he the only MV/I Bantam that's going to play at Gentry this winter? There were two other kids at Gentry that played on the MV/I PeeWee A team last winter, both are big-time scorers.
Not sure. Obviously, it doesn't bother me much if kids "go to school" at Gentry but play for MVI. Unfortunately, that's not going to be the case for TC. I'm sure Gentry is working on getting those other two to play for the the Galaxy as well.

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:24 pm

The Exiled One wrote:MVI is going AA at bantam this year. Still A at peewee. Five teams at each level, from what I've heard.

Unfortunately, it looks like a stud from the peewee a team last year (TC, look him up if you're that interested) will be taking off for the Gentry Galaxy. It's a shame really. Between him, GB, and the goalie EK, the bantam AA team would have been pretty solid. Not sure if it's because of the bantam head coach or other reasons.

Hopefully Irondale can bring him back into the fold when the stars begin to align. IHS could put together their first relevant team since the early 80's!
88' and 89' teams were pretty darn good! :D

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