goalies: stand-up to hyrbrid/butterfly

Nostalgic Nerd · Post by **Nostalgic Nerd** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:42 pm

Was there a year or set of years this transition took place?

hockeyfan893 · Post by **hockeyfan893** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:50 pm

The modern butterfly style of goaltending was popularized by Patrick Roy in the mid 1980's along with the then-Montreal and current-Toronto goalie coach, Francois Allaire.

The nature of the butterfly style has emerged due to advancements in protective equipment that make blocking and trapping the puck with the body much safer and more effective than it used to be.

I believe Ed Belfour was the last great-standup style goaltender.

Nostalgic Nerd · Post by **Nostalgic Nerd** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:56 pm

Guess I meant the question geared towards high school hockey.

Roy01 · Post by **Roy01** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:54 pm

hockeyfan893 wrote:The modern butterfly style of goaltending was popularized by Patrick Roy in the mid 1980's along with the then-Montreal and current-Toronto goalie coach, Francois Allaire.

The nature of the butterfly style has emerged due to advancements in protective equipment that make blocking and trapping the puck with the body much safer and more effective than it used to be.

I believe Ed Belfour was the last great-standup style goaltender.

Another factor in this was that if a goaltender plays on the top of his/her crease it limits the net size from 6x4 to 5x3 (trajectory lines off the puck and angles). If a goaltender plays down in a butterfly, many can make a five foot spread across the base of the net. With pads a couple years ago being 12 or (sometimes on occasion with customization) 13 inches (now 11), it would eliminate the bottom foot leaving a goaltender to only need to move his/her arms within a space of two feet above the pad to eliminate the available net to shoot at. A goaltender's body will take up the mid portions of the net. With this being said, and with a goalie playing on the top of their crease, the net is further reduced from 15 square feet (5x3 as mentioned above) to around 6 square feet off the body and on the area around the arms on a direct (center) angle. The net only decreases as play moves to the side. I forget the coach that developed this style of play, but the logic behind it is great if performed correctly.

hockeyfan893 · Post by **hockeyfan893** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:04 am

The major downside is that the butterfly motion is an astoundingly unnatural movement for the hips - labrums, tendons, joints, flexers. With a proliferation of the butterfly style, we've seen an increase in the amount of hip injuries experienced by goaltenders.

GoldenBear · Post by **GoldenBear** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:18 am

Correct on the stress of the body which is why goalies should take 2-3 months off in the summer to refresh. Goalies aren't like skaters in that they can take time off---don't need to put stress on joints and have pucks flung at them 12 months a year. All a goalie needs is two weeks in the fall to get the legs back and to be ready; assuming that they keep in off- ice shape in the offseason doing many other "athletic" activities...baseball, stretching, tennis, weight lifting etc. Unfortunately, for the amount of time the skaters play in the summer (AAA), the teams need goalies and thus the goalies are suckered into thinking they need to play in the summers too and all of sudden when they are Sophs/Juniors in high school their body breaks down on them.

My two cents. GB

The Enlightened One · Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:36 pm

Really now, is this a serious post?????

If one assumes that this is a troll post then I am glad that I passed on it. On the other hand if it is for real then I think I will start by responding that I see no reason for skaters to go year around since all they have to do is skate down the ice and fling a puck at a net. Pretty much any primate can hit a rock with a stick so really there is no need for training or practice ............. All skaters need to do is to play table tennis and badminton and go for a short walk or two before the season starts. They will be at their prime and ready to excel at their position.

If GB is not a troll and really thinks that a person who wants to play the most mentally, technically and athletically challenging position in sport can spend his summer stretching and playing tennis and go into the season with two weeks of skating to get his legs back and be ready to go at his prime then I have to admit that a lot of my questions about hockey in MN have been answered.

The biggest thing that is proliferating in MN right now is bad goal tending not injured goal tenders. Why do you think that with all of the goalies playing on all of the teams in high school in MN that somebody had to work his butt off to come up with a very short list of goal tenders who have gone on to bigger and better things after high school? GoldenBear's post pretty much sums up the attitudes of a very large group of people in hockey in MN right up until they are going into over time in a game that they need to win. Then, suddenly, they look at that kid between the pipes and hope he can pull it out for them using all the he learned while he was playing tennis over the summer.

If you look at the bulk of the injuries that you see or hear about relating to goalies you see a common theme. He was either ran or landed on and hurt.

puckstopper33 · Post by **puckstopper33** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:40 pm

The Enlightened One wrote:Really now, is this a serious post?????

If one assumes that this is a troll post then I am glad that I passed on it. On the other hand if it is for real then I think I will start by responding that I see no reason for skaters to go year around since all they have to do is skate down the ice and fling a puck at a net. Pretty much any primate can hit a rock with a stick so really there is no need for training or practice ............. All skaters need to do is to play table tennis and badminton and go for a short walk or two before the season starts. They will be at their prime and ready to excel at their position.

If GB is not a troll and really thinks that a person who wants to play the most mentally, technically and athletically challenging position in sport can spend his summer stretching and playing tennis and go into the season with two weeks of skating to get his legs back and be ready to go at his prime then I have to admit that a lot of my questions about hockey in MN have been answered.

The biggest thing that is proliferating in MN right now is bad goal tending not injured goal tenders. Why do you think that with all of the goalies playing on all of the teams in high school in MN that somebody had to work his butt off to come up with a very short list of goal tenders who have gone on to bigger and better things after high school? GoldenBear's post pretty much sums up the attitudes of a very large group of people in hockey in MN right up until they are going into over time in a game that they need to win. Then, suddenly, they look at that kid between the pipes and hope he can pull it out for them using all the he learned while he was playing tennis over the summer.

If you look at the bulk of the injuries that you see or hear about relating to goalies you see a common theme. He was either ran or landed on and hurt.

You are my hero...

GoldenBear · Post by **GoldenBear** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:10 am

You made me laugh. Thanks. I didn't say that goalies shoud be sitting home eating chips and getting fat. No, goalies need to work harder than skaters but it doesn't need to be having knuckheads firing shots at them 12 months out of the year; or contorting their bodies in unnatural positions-- the butterfly technique is very stressful on the joints and body. Take a break, regroup physically and mentally from the demands of what I consider the best position in ANY sport. I hope your next response makes me laugh even harder. That being said, I do see where you are coming from based on your interpretation of my reply on the subject.

GB

hockeyfan21 · Post by **hockeyfan21** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:29 am

The Enlightened One

If you look at the bulk of the injuries that you see or hear about relating to goalies you see a common theme. He was either ran or landed on and hurt.

No offense, but incorrect.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

http://www.startribune.com/error/?id=11 ... rts%2Fwild

I'm in my 20's and have already had both hips cleaned up, will need both replaced before 40 and have no history of hip problems in my entire family. Same surgeon that worked on Backstrom and Thomas. Said he went from doing 20-30 labrum surgeries in the late 90's (usually on octogenarians), to 400-600 each year. Mostly on goalies. As young as 14.

Only have so much tread on the tires, how fast do you want to wear them down? Obviously you don't sit on your butt for 9 months between seasons, but performing 2-300 butterflies/practice for twelve months will eat up your hips quick.

The Enlightened One · Post by **The Enlightened One** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:42 pm

hockeyfan21 wrote:The Enlightened One
If you look at the bulk of the injuries that you see or hear about relating to goalies you see a common theme. He was either ran or landed on and hurt.
No offense, but incorrect.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

http://www.startribune.com/error/?id=11 ... rts%2Fwild

I'm in my 20's and have already had both hips cleaned up, will need both replaced before 40 and have no history of hip problems in my entire family. Same surgeon that worked on Backstrom and Thomas. Said he went from doing 20-30 labrum surgeries in the late 90's (usually on octogenarians), to 400-600 each year. Mostly on goalies. As young as 14.

Only have so much tread on the tires, how fast do you want to wear them down? Obviously you don't sit on your butt for 9 months between seasons, but performing 2-300 butterflies/practice for twelve months will eat up your hips quick.

I get that too and see where the continuous wear and tear would be like a carpal tunnel syndrome sort of in jury to the hips. I think that you (the goalie) have to work on your game year around but you also have to listen to your body when it is injured. I wonder if doing things like still playing hockey but rather than working year around doing a couple of hundred saves at a time if the bulk of the off season practice time should be devoted to the stand up part of the game. The work around the pipes, passing and moving the puck, those angles and stuff like that. Even though a goalie is a hard core butterfly goalie there is still lots of stuff that can and should be worked on "on the feet" rather than butter flied down.

Just a thought.

The Enlightened One · Post by **The Enlightened One** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:46 pm

GoldenBear wrote:You made me laugh. Thanks. I didn't say that goalies shoud be sitting home eating chips and getting fat. No, goalies need to work harder than skaters but it doesn't need to be having knuckheads firing shots at them 12 months out of the year; or contorting their bodies in unnatural positions-- the butterfly technique is very stressful on the joints and body. Take a break, regroup physically and mentally from the demands of what I consider the best position in ANY sport. I hope your next response makes me laugh even harder. That being said, I do see where you are coming from based on your interpretation of my reply on the subject.

GB

Glad to hear that I could provide a laugh. I laugh sometimes at stuff here and cuss others. I was not quite sure about how you were coming at the whole off season deal and since I have had this conversation about off season goal tending with others I figured "here we go again", another guy who says that being a goalie is not that hard and that a kid is better off fishing than playing hockey to keep getting better.

I think that we agree more than we disagree.