Will Edina's youth domination continue into High School?

57special · Post by **57special** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:51 am

nobama wrote:is he still drinking out of a juice box.

Entering first year Bantam. Might still be drinking out of juice box... No intel as of yet.

bafata88 · Post by **bafata88** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:34 pm

Yes, I read Blades of Glory, many years ago. I understand the culture of Minnesota high school hockey. I've been around the block a few times. Just because Saterdalen or Ikola coached a certain way does not make it right [in fact, I've heard from Edina alum, that Ikola would not move guys up and down between varsity and jv for at least 10 games or so]. Giles won a state tournament with a team that stayed together pretty much all year with very little movement. The next year he's got a better team and he is moving guys between jv and varsity likes its Grand Central station; and they did not win state; a team that totally underachieved in large part because he ruined any chance for team chemistry.

I will not call out specific players who have been absolute curious choices because it would be unfair to them; but people there are still scratching their heads about certain player choices Giles makes.

It is my opinion that Edina would have had a better chance to beat BSM at state if Edina had a few more seniors on the team this past season. This is not meant in anyway to take away from the success of a very young team; but there is something to be said about senior strength and leadership.

And a Giles coached team has won only one state championship; and there are alot of people who believe he should have won a few more considering all of the high end talent and incredible depth at his disposal year after year.

And I'm not quite sure that I am ranting; I have ranted in my life and these posts don't feel like rants. Just opinions based upon observations and talking with people who know alot more than me. Are Minnesota high school hockey and Curt Giles so sacred that they cannot be criticized? I don't think I've ever called him names.

Edgy · Post by **Edgy** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:08 pm

...didn't Prior Lake win the state in PW A's this year?

green4 · Post by **green4** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:02 pm

bafata88 wrote:Yes, I read Blades of Glory, many years ago. I understand the culture of Minnesota high school hockey. I've been around the block a few times. Just because Saterdalen or Ikola coached a certain way does not make it right [in fact, I've heard from Edina alum, that Ikola would not move guys up and down between varsity and jv for at least 10 games or so]. Giles won a state tournament with a team that stayed together pretty much all year with very little movement. The next year he's got a better team and he is moving guys between jv and varsity likes its Grand Central station; and they did not win state; a team that totally underachieved in large part because he ruined any chance for team chemistry.

I will not call out specific players who have been absolute curious choices because it would be unfair to them; but people there are still scratching their heads about certain player choices Giles makes.

It is my opinion that Edina would have had a better chance to beat BSM at state if Edina had a few more seniors on the team this past season. This is not meant in anyway to take away from the success of a very young team; but there is something to be said about senior strength and leadership.

And a Giles coached team has won only one state championship; and there are alot of people who believe he should have won a few more considering all of the high end talent and incredible depth at his disposal year after year.

And I'm not quite sure that I am ranting; I have ranted in my life and these posts don't feel like rants. Just opinions based upon observations and talking with people who know alot more than me. Are Minnesota high school hockey and Curt Giles so sacred that they cannot be criticized? I don't think I've ever called him names.

They had one senior skater and he got set up about 5 times that game against Bsm and coudn't score. they didn't need more seniors. they had a good team lost a tough game. Giles did a good job get over it.

Bluewhitefan · Post by **Bluewhitefan** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:07 pm

green4 wrote:
bafata88 wrote:Yes, I read Blades of Glory, many years ago. I understand the culture of Minnesota high school hockey. I've been around the block a few times. Just because Saterdalen or Ikola coached a certain way does not make it right [in fact, I've heard from Edina alum, that Ikola would not move guys up and down between varsity and jv for at least 10 games or so]. Giles won a state tournament with a team that stayed together pretty much all year with very little movement. The next year he's got a better team and he is moving guys between jv and varsity likes its Grand Central station; and they did not win state; a team that totally underachieved in large part because he ruined any chance for team chemistry.

I will not call out specific players who have been absolute curious choices because it would be unfair to them; but people there are still scratching their heads about certain player choices Giles makes.

It is my opinion that Edina would have had a better chance to beat BSM at state if Edina had a few more seniors on the team this past season. This is not meant in anyway to take away from the success of a very young team; but there is something to be said about senior strength and leadership.

And a Giles coached team has won only one state championship; and there are alot of people who believe he should have won a few more considering all of the high end talent and incredible depth at his disposal year after year.

And I'm not quite sure that I am ranting; I have ranted in my life and these posts don't feel like rants. Just opinions based upon observations and talking with people who know alot more than me. Are Minnesota high school hockey and Curt Giles so sacred that they cannot be criticized? I don't think I've ever called him names.
They had one senior skater and he got set up about 5 times that game against Bsm and coudn't score. they didn't need more seniors. they had a good team lost a tough game. Giles did a good job get over it.

Proof of absolutely NOTHING. Maybe he took the WRONG senior - felt forced because he'd been named captain. There may very well have been kids at JGA that would have helped, but we'll never know, becuse Giles doesn't care are about loyalty except to his NHL brotherhood.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:12 pm

Bluewhitefan wrote:Proof of absolutely NOTHING. Maybe he took the WRONG senior - felt forced because he'd been named captain. There may very well have been kids at JGA that would have helped, but we'll never know, becuse Giles doesn't care are about loyalty except to his NHL brotherhood.

I love it when the L word gets thrown out. As a group, y'know, teenage hockey stars and their parents have proven to be an incredibly loyal bunch.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:58 pm

They can be criticized all you want, but you also have to be fair in your criticism. Right? Edina would be in the top 10 of talent/depth each season. Correct? Let me ask you this. How many championships has Minnetonka won in the past 4-5 years? Look at the talent that program has had. I would put them arguably number one in the last 4 years. They had one team that had 4 division one defenseman, whether seniors or juniors at the time. They have had and still currently have many other division one players.

Another one would be Duluth East. The last two years they have been as deep as any team in the state. Correct? They are 0-2 in winning the championship that year. If they dont win next year, then they would have missed out on an incredible opportunity in a 3 year span.

So Giles winning one isnt all so bad compared to Tonka and Duluth East with the depth they have had recently. Giles has as many championships as Lechner in since coaching at Edina.

So, Bafata...everything I have heard is that Giles is nothing but class. Get over it buddy! Oh yeah, and to be devil's advocate. They could have lost worse with the seniors, or maybe even not have made it.

bafata88 · Post by **bafata88** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:21 pm

Then I suppose Tigers, you are talking with a small segment of the world that knows Giles or about the way he treats some of his players.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:29 pm

Bafata, you are young. Trust me, I know more about Edina than you may know. Giles is a great man. The reason people dont like him his cause he makes tough decisions. Are they fair? No, not always. However, life isnt always fair. Right? Playing high school sports is about life lessons as well. Sometimes hard decisions have to be made. I think he has done well with the decisions he has made. You are far to close to the situation to make unbiased opinions. Obviously you are bitter that your buddies/seniors got cut. Looking at how many kids made their advanced rosters and moved on to final 54 I would say he might have made some good choices on who he kept.

Malmquist, J. Walker, and C. Munson - going to NY for Advanced 16's
C. Hurley - going to NY for Advanced 17's
Reno, T. Nanne, Fidler, and Brauer all made final 54's.
L. Nanne was in their top 5 for scoring.
A. Walsh tied for most goals in the Advanced 18 festival with 4.
Andy Jordahl was their third leading scorer.
Matt Nelson had 12 points which was 6th on their team, and not bad for a defenseman.

So, thats 12 players. The only ones I am really missing are Hatch, Leer, and Spicola. Are those the players that should have been cut?

How many championships has D. East and Tonka won in the last 5 years. They are a combined 0-10 in those years. Giles has won 1. I think the depth of these three schools is very comparable. Minnetonka might have arguably the best players within these 5 years.

Please share with all of us. Dont just say Giles should have kept seniors. Who should have been kept? In place of who? What would those seniors have brought to the team?

Slap Shot · Post by **Slap Shot** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:36 am

I sadly partly agree. If another coach had Urick's talent the past few years Tonka might have won one by now.

That said, great talent can be beat. Just ask Hakstol.

Post by **karl(east)** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:31 pm

Tigers33 wrote:How many championships has D. East and Tonka won in the last 5 years. They are a combined 0-10 in those years. Giles has won 1. I think the depth of these three schools is very comparable. Minnetonka might have arguably the best players within these 5 years.

While I think Edina has probably put out the most talent of any program in the state over the past five years, that doesn't necessarily mean they should be favored for a state title every year. And if we're judging the past 5 Edina teams off their odds at a state title given the talent they have, I probably would put the squad that actually won at 4th of the 5--remember, they were nowhere near favored that year. This year's team would come in 5th, in part because of their youth, though this simply wasn't a great senior class by Edina standards, whether they'd kept a few more seniors or not.

Like any coach, I think Giles has his strengths and weaknesses. He is brilliant at line-matching, and he also seems to have a very clear idea of what he's trying to do, sometimes years in advance. I would agree that he can take a while to settle on lines (trying to juggle in/try out too many good players, perhaps?). He also seems content to ask one line to carry the scoring load, which at times seems a bit odd given the depth he has, and the fact that his state title came in a year where he had 3-4 balanced lines. (I think doing that made sense this past year, though--again, because of the lack of high-scoring upperclassmen.)

Sure, just about any other coach in the state would love to be able to work with the talent Giles has, but all that talent certainly does not make his job easy, and also means he's under as much scrutiny as anyone else out there.

bafata88 · Post by **bafata88** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:59 pm

I can take a shot at this. Edina's best chance to win state this year would've included the following guys who should have been there [some were not because of their own questionable choices and others because they were cut]

B. Walker, L. Nanne, Hurley
Hardacker, Brauer, Malmquist
Dietzler, Blanak, Munson
Leer, Jordahl, Fidler [or Walsh or T. Nanne]

Reno, J. Walker
Nelson, Pederson
Bakke, Baker

Dalbec, Benjamin

This squad would've given them 9 seniors and a really super strong pool of jv guys to pull from. Much stronger, experienced with tons more depth.

xy · Post by xy » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:34 pm

I have no dog in this fight and only an outsider's perspective, but I do think it's only fair to Curt Giles to point out that if Zach Budish doesn't also play football, or doesn't have bad luck on one play, there's a decent chance Edina wins a state title in 2009 and his record would look a little different.

green4 · Post by **green4** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:21 pm

bafata88 wrote:I can take a shot at this. Edina's best chance to win state this year would've included the following guys who should have been there [some were not because of their own questionable choices and others because they were cut]

B. Walker, L. Nanne, Hurley
Hardacker, Brauer, Malmquist
Dietzler, Blanak, Munson
Leer, Jordahl, Fidler [or Walsh or T. Nanne]

Reno, J. Walker
Nelson, Pederson
Bakke, Baker

Dalbec, Benjamin

This squad would've given them 9 seniors and a really super strong pool of jv guys to pull from. Much stronger, experienced with tons more depth.

walker left so you can't do anything about that. Blanek was used as a enforcer and they realized his skills were not varsity level just size. Hardacker did not like giles and refused to play for him, quit hockey all together this year. Dietzler was good enough but had off the ice issues and had attitude problems that made him a bad choice to be on a team where he would be forced to be a leader, i do agree with Dalbac cause he was the best goalie in edina but when the assistant coach's kid is on the team i don't see how you can cut him thats a bad spot to be in but i agree dalbac should have been there

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:34 am

Bafata - Your response to that? It looks like there might be something to what green4 is saying.

Walker left, so you cant include him anyways. Many coaches cut seniors with off ice issues and attitude problems, not just Giles.

bafata88 · Post by **bafata88** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:36 pm

Tigers33 wrote:Bafata - Your response to that? It looks like there might be something to what green4 is saying.

Walker left, so you cant include him anyways. Many coaches cut seniors with off ice issues and attitude problems, not just Giles.

Let's see: taking someone with off ice issues?; would not have been the first time; and with other seniors on the team, Dietzler would not have had to carry that leadership load (ie. Sampson/Cote from 2010/11). If Blanak was good enough to play varsity as a soph on a team that ultimately won the state tourney, I find it hard to believe that he was not good enough to play this year; Blanak on a checking line or going against 3rd or 4th line guys would have been fascinating. I suspect that B. Walker and Hardacker would have been playing for Giles this past season if Giles' roster decisions were not so erratic and inexplicable. Perhaps B. Walker, like most everyone, could not have foreseen the success they had this season with such a young team. And I heard that Giles is the one that gave up on Hardacker, not the other way around.

And then on defense, I will go to my grave believing that Pederson, Bakke and Baker would've given them a bit more stability these past two years.

And I am happy to announce to you who hate me for criticizing Curt Giles, I am based in reality enough to know that what is done is done. And he will likely be the coach there for as long as he wants.

But he won a state championship with a weaker senior class than he has had; and he kept a bunch of those seniors and he did not move guys up and down; that team developed some chemistry. It will be interesting to see what he does next year when everyone of note should be back; or will he be cutting some of those juniors who have not turned into stars to make room for the next youth movement. I am a firm believer that he should keep guys like Walsh, Anderson and Hatch next year because they will be seniors and have some experience.

So, back to the original issue of this thread; I do not believe Edina will have a chance for a dynasty unless the coaches go back to what worked for them, more roster stability and more seniors on the roster.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Mon May 07, 2012 8:14 am

Bafata - You are to close to the situation, and it is to personal to make an un-biased opinion in your case. I have nothing to do with Edina, and actually dont even like Edina.

I just go by what I see, hear, and know that this stuff happens all over the place. Unless you are in the locker room, nobody has any idea what is happening behind closed doors. For all someone knows there could be attitude issues, effort issues, grade issues, etc...with kids that nobody knows. To be devil's advocate to myself, of course this could all not be the case.

This is what I know - Edina nearly beat the eventual state champions. So, I think Giles put together a pretty good team. Would they have been better with the seniors? MAYBE. Nobody knows that. Lots of coaches have certain rules that if you arent in the top 6 forwards or top 4 defenseman as a senior than you will get cut. The reason for that is so a senior doesnt bring the team down cause their role is not to their liking. This happens everywhere!

Giles is like Lucia in my mind. Its sad to say that but he is. He has to constantly look at the future, and the present at the same time. If he doesnt take certain kids at certain times do those kids transfer to private schools. Maybe he thought he didnt have a team to his liking with older kids, and chose to go young to develop for next season. You keep mentioning about 6 kids that should have been there. Ok, to be fair to everyone Bafata, which 6 shouldnt have been there.

Give me 3 defenseman that should not have been playing!
And 3 forwards that should not have been playing!

FYI...I am going to assume you are young. Correct? A player doesnt go to major junior cause they dont like the coach. A player goes there cause someone (probably their advisor) suggested that is the best route to the NHL. Thats a pretty big decision to make just because you dont like the coach.

bafata88 · Post by **bafata88** » Wed May 23, 2012 8:41 pm

Tigers, you say you know more about Edina hockey than I do but then you also say you have nothing to do with Edina. Not sure how that works. Maybe I have alot to do with Edina hockey or maybe I know people who do and share with me their insights. You assume I am young. Maybe I'm young and maybe I'm old. Not sure what my age has to do with anything.

I try not to disparage any high school hockey player, so I will not go out of my way to point out players who I think are or were not as good as others. Typically those kinds of assessments are readily evident to anyone who pays close attention and who can look at the situation fairly.

I will repeat again what I've said, I believe that Edina's teams these last two years would've been stronger if Giles had not given up on the Class of 2012. But he did what he did and we are left to debate it.

Maybe I am close to the situation or maybe I am not. Regardless, I know enough to have a relatively informed opinion. As everyone knows, Edina annually gets a deep pool of good to excellent hockey players from families who are very supportive and passionate. And there are still a number of old time Edina hockey people who question Giles' coaching, in particular some of his player choices.

And to return to this thread, because of what I see as some weaknesses in Giles as a coach [and the seemingly more prevalent practice of player defections to private schools or juniors], Edina's youth "domination" will not translate into high school domination. And unfortunately, if you are from Edina and are a fan of Edina hockey, anything short of a state title is not domination. That seems to be their standard.

green4 · Post by **green4** » Thu May 24, 2012 3:05 pm

Bafata i have a couple problems with your argument first going back to your 2nd to last post about Hardacker if giles quit on him why didn't he continue to play hockey? JGA is not bad they won state. and Blanek, he was on the team as a soph yes but he did not win state he got demoted to JV with a couple games left in the regular season because he was only good at hitting and was getting penalties but his skating and scoring ability was not up to varsity level. And your argument about walker should be taken out cause he left for whatever reasons, i heard cause grades were a factor and he might not be able to play with poor grades but who knows he left he does not matter, he can't be a factor in this discussion but my main issue with this is that you say they were not good enough or could have done better but they lost to the state champs in the 1st round in a game where i think and others might agree they were better than BSM but they lost a tough one to a good team that after that game dominated LS and Hill so if edina pulls off that win they have a good chance of winningit all, yes but they didn't but they still had a great year when it was a rebuilding year to many. so take the positive from it they played well and Giles did a good job with the younger players

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Thu May 24, 2012 6:39 pm

I find this discussion fascinating, If you are a long time follower of Edina hockey you've likely heard about the list of players from Edina who went on to play D1 but never even made the varsity. People quickly forget that the legend , Ikola, was also faced with this dilemma many times. Much the same for Saterdalen during Jefferson's glory years. Edina does such a marvelous job of developing players that this situation is almost unavoidable.

In the 70's when Edina split they instantly had two top 10 teams year in and year out. What happens without the split? The same thing is happening right now, with Bernie in their backyard and an outstanding youth program with HUGE numbers, this problem isn't likely to go away anytime soon. Think if all the Edina kids at privates were still there....now how hard is it to be Giles? Nice problem to have but plenty of good players and angry parents on the sidelines.

PS. If someone out there has the list I'd love to see it again, its truly remarkable.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Thu May 24, 2012 11:51 pm

Scott Jenewein played some AHL hockey after an All-American career at Mankato State. I don't believe he ever played for Edina, East or West.

Steve Jecha was cut (I believe from JV) as a Junior and went on to be drafted out of Minnetonka HS just over a year later.

Mike Wurst did not play for a merged Edina, but twin Dan did. Mike was drafted (I think) and played for Ohio State. (Dan played at Providence and later transferred to Wisconsin if memory serves.)

A bunch of guys like Mark Keating weren't on the Edina HS team but went on to be very productive players in the MIAC.

Ben Henrich was named national Junior player of the year (a USA Hockey award) in the mid-90s and I'm not sure how much he played in goal for Edina. (He may have gone to private school.)

Bob Herber played at Notre Dame when they brought back NCAA hockey and did well at the D-1 level.

I'm sure there are others.

In 1986, Edina was #1 for a great deal of the year and was upset when Damian Rhodes stopped what seemed to be 50 pucks in a Section semi. Worth mentioning that the kids that got cut won the state Jr. B championship that year, often playing against kids 19-20 years old. After that, another team of Edina players won something called the Juvenile A state tournament. (Kids older than Midgets but not on HS teams.) A banner hangs in Braemar. Point is a lot of guys weren't even close to making the HS team yet they were okay players.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:33 am

O-townClown wrote:(In "30 For 30" promo voice)

What would you say if I told you...

one of the strong players' father mentioned in these posts above actually grew up in Edina and played HS Varsity for St. Thomas Academy?

Is that school ever mentioned as a landing spot for these Edina kids, or is it just Benilde-St. Margaret's? Seems like Holy Angels is out of the mix these days. Holy Family in the future, perhaps?[/i]

And if he does end up there it will likely be the result of evil recruiting, not a student going to the school his family was planning for him to attend all along, right?

Interesting thread. From someone who knows zero about this situation, I think it's also good to point out that this is high school sports, with high school kids playing. Many times there are lots of emotions going on and it's really easy to lose one game here and there. Taking a look at the record of this team who has made it to state the last 6 years in a row (and doesn't look like that will stop anytime soon) it'd be really tough to not call what they've done success.

1 title, 1 runner up, 1 4th place finish, 2 consolation titles and their one 0-2 record at state coming this year. 10-7 record at state, making it 6 years in a row. Not many programs would complain about that.

BodyShots · Post by **BodyShots** » Tue May 29, 2012 3:40 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote: 1 title, 1 runner up, 1 4th place finish, 2 consolation titles and their one 0-2 record at state coming this year. 10-7 record at state, making it 6 years in a row. Not many programs would complain about that.

No other program would compain about it, but the real question is....

Is Edina satisfied with those results?

Slap Shot · Post by **Slap Shot** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:28 pm

O-townClown wrote:In 1986, Edina was #1 for a great deal of the year and was upset when Damian Rhodes stopped what seemed to be 50 pucks in a Section semi. Worth mentioning that the kids that got cut won the state Jr. B championship that year, often playing against kids 19-20 years old. After that, another team of Edina players won something called the Juvenile A state tournament. (Kids older than Midgets but not on HS teams.) A banner hangs in Braemar. Point is a lot of guys weren't even close to making the HS team yet they were okay players.

Tonka lost to the same Rhodes team (barely .500 even after sections) in that Section final 2-1 and iirc Edina beat the Tonka Juve A team in that year's state final.

Doc Holliday · Post by **Doc Holliday** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:46 am

O-townClown wrote:Ben Henrich was named national Junior player of the year (a USA Hockey award) in the mid-90s and I'm not sure how much he played in goal for Edina. (He may have gone to private school.)

He started the last half of his freshman season, which was 1989-90. Was the starting goalie in the '90 Sec. VI final, but lost to Tonka (gave up bad goal from between the blue line & red line which was the eventual GWG). Started for most of the 1990-91 season, but Jenny Hanley replaced him for the last few games & the playoffs.

Rumor has it his father threatened to leave Edina if he wasn't the playoff goalie, but Ikola was in his last year, so he didn't really care about the threat, even if he would have given in to it in the first place, but like I said, "rumor." Hanley played in the '91 Sec. VI final, which they lost to Richfield, 4-2. Gave up a rather soft goal to Brad Wilner in the 3rd which broke a 2-2 tie.

Not that I remember or anything.