Tier hockey

[Blackhawkfan]

It is un-American that Mn is not allowed to have a Tier 1 team. It is incredibly myopic and selfish not to allow kids that want the opportunity to play Tier 1 and test themselves against the best around North America. Does Mn produce some elite hockey players, D1, HS superstars and some guys that get into the NHL? Sure. But, we'd have a HELLUVA lot more if kids were allowed to reach their full potential, which association hockey can't do. Whether it's the coaching, practice training or lack of quality games...association hockey is not the only answer for talented kids. MN hockey is a hotbed, not unlike the greater Toronto area, Vancouver area, Montreal area, plains of Alberta/Sask, the Detroit area, etc. But there are more high-quality NHL players from those areas because we force our kids to stay with this development model, which is OK for the masses...but mixed for the best we have. Some kids will make it regardless...but how much better would Nick Leddy be if he played Tier 1 growing up? He is already starting to get a mass of critics about his passive and underwhelming physical game, and you can bet your bottom dollar, if he'd play more games against better competition (faster and more physical) growing up...don't you think he'd be more on the fast track for top 2 minutes and 5-7$ mill a year, instead of being on the fringes of a roster within the next couple of year? He has all the skating talent in the world, but when I watch him play I see a typical Mn kid. To be on par with those kids in Toronto or Detroit, they need Tier 1 hockey and the physicality, speed and competition that Mn hockey can't even compare to.

You HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!!

We have played outside the MN Hockey model for more than 7 years and it is the best decision we ever made. MN Hockey is only trying to preserve the mistique of the High School Hockey Tournament. If the best players plat Tier 1, they will not play in the High School Hockey tournament.....the tournament then folds. Minnesota Association players have no idea what kind of competition is out there on the Tier 1 (true AAA) stage. The competition at the tier 1 level definitely makes better players.

[Blackhawkfan]

Frankly, I am not a fan of Tier 1 hockey. I think Minnesota has it right with the model they currently use. The reason other areas of the country need Tier 1 AAA hockey is because they don't have the amount and quality of local competition. They are forced to form these Tier 1 teams and travel all over the country playing similar teams because they don't have the amount of adequate competition in their own backyard.

Also, I am not a fan of Tier 1 hockey because of the costs associated with it. The best way to grow hockey, the number of kids playing hockey, and, therefore, an increase in the number of athletes playing hockey is to keep the costs down. Cost is the #1 excuse I hear from friends with kids my son's age as to why they do not play hockey. Too expensive. It ain't cheap jet-setting all over the country playing a national schedule.

The way it is right now I have no doubt the top associations in Minnesota could compete with and beat the Jr. Blues, Young Americans, and Compuwares of the Tier 1 world anyway.

If Minnesota hockey can't resist this temptation and wants to get into competing in USAH Tier 1 national tournaments I believe the best way to do it would be to form District All Star teams to compete on that level. That way the kids could stay home and play community based/high school hockey yet the top talent would still have an opportunity to compete on that level.

Maybe I am just being selfish and don't want to have to send my son off when he is 14 so he can "develop" his hockey skills. I believe I would be abdicating my responsibilities as his parent during some of his most formitive years by doing so.

That is why the Chicago area has 4 teams and Detroit has 4 teams because there are not enough players......hmmmmm

[Shinbone_News]

The grass is greener? Talking about a squirt kid that will never reach his potential is so foolish doesn't deserve comment. To say MN Hockey stunts development is even dumber. You want MN Hockey to get bigger numbers and better athletes, outlaw all sports except hockey. No more basketball stealing hockey players. No more sports except hockey period. Find the 5-6 year olds that naturally skate the best. Make them Tier 1 players. Move them out of their homes and into dorms to train hockey year round. 2 week visits back home. Then we will produce hockey players!

People that think hockey players are MADE are so foolish. Nick Leddy would have been better if grew up in Toronto? Ha, maybe Montreal as he is more suited to the frog style of play?

How did Reed Larson Neal Broten, Phil Housley, Mike Ramsey, etc play well over 1,000 NHL games growing up playing hockey 5-6 months of the year for associations that didn't even win State?

Want more MN kids in the NHL, outlaw Europeans from the NHL. Especially Russians!

Zach Parise turned out fine, despite a crazy dad. Just think how good he would be if he didn't play Squirt and PW in Bloomington? What about his brother?

Well said, Bob.

The argument always rests on a notion that has been disproven about 80 ways from Sunday: That more games against better competition makes for a better player. Shall we revisit the numbers? Average time actually touching the puck in an Olympic game: Less than 60 seconds per player per game. Actual time on the ice: 12 minutes.

This is why anyone who actually coaches or plays the game says practice to game ratios should be between 2:1 and 3:1.

Tier 1 teams are good because they are regional all-star teams. Minnesota teams are good because kids are forced, every two years, to play with kids that are a full year older/bigger/faster. But in both cases, it's ~practice~, not games, where improvement and development happen. I feel privileged to drive about 10 minutes to practice 5 times a week, rather than the 1.5 hours my sister has to drive each way for Tier 1 practices twice a week in Chicago.

You want more proof in the pudding? Look at Central Scouting's current watch list and compare how many Minnesota players there are on that list versus other states (including high school AND tier 1). http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=641797


Minnesota HS: 18 players
Minnesotans in juniors and NTDP: 9 players
Connecticut HS: 6
Mass HS: 6
New Hampshire HS: 1
NoDak HS: 1
Tier 1 AAA East: 3 (2 are goalies)
Tier 1 AAA West: 0


Talk to anyone in USA Hockey and ask them how to fix Minnesota Hockey. (As I did at my Level 4 clinic last week.) They'll laugh out loud and say, "Are you crazy? Do you have any idea how good Minnesota has it?" Just the simple idea of a not-for-profit arena doesn't even exist elsewhere in the country.

[goaliewithfoggedglasses]

Somebody needs to go check on Bo, I can't believe he's not all over this thread!

[Shinbone_News]

Oh, and another empirical comparison that speaks to this issue: Watch the Elite League teams play Shattuck-St. Mary's this year. Heck, watch any HS team play SSMA this year. Do the Sabres usually win? Yes, but not always. Are they blow-out games? Rarely. They are often tied or beaten by Elite League teams, and even a lowly single A team (Breck) tied them last year.

And let's not kid ourselves. Not only is SSM a Tier 1 AAA school, they are widely considered the best at nearly every level they play, including the top.

Minnesota kids do fine against Tier 1 AAA hockey.

[MrBoDangles]

Somebody needs to go check on Bo, I can't believe he's not all over this thread!

I'm just about ready to pounce....

Thanks for checking on me.

[YouthHockeyHub]

Love the passion in this thread. Shin, you nailed it pretty good.

I hear both sides to this debate all the time.

Each side seems to make valid points.

My take away is simple. Do what's best for your kid. The MNH model is great for ninety some percent of the kids here in Minny. The bottom line is the world is flat now...people do crazy things for the advancement of their kid's hockey.

Over the past 3 years I have met four families that have moved from other states to MN. Primarily to try their hat in MN.

They just gush at how much they love it. They laugh about parents who complain about the cost ($1500) or a game in Farmington or Forest Lake (25 minute drives).

[MrBoDangles]

We'll play a Sesame Street game.

"Minnesota Hockey's" top seven scorers in the NHL. (In no particular order)

Kyle Oksposo- Played tier 1 at SSM.

Blake Wheeler- left HS early for USHL. (tier 1 Jrs)

Dustin Byfuglien- left Roseau to play for the tier 1 Chicago Mission.

Derek Stepan- tier 1 at SSM. also youth tier 1?

David Backes- supplemented his jr and sr year with USHL(TIER 1 JRS) games.

Zach Parise- tier 1 at SSM

"TJ OSHIE"- he led all Minnesota HS scorers his sr(?) year. The kicker is that he played tier 1 in Washington state through his youth.

Nevermind, none of these players are different from the others.......

I'll recoil and listen again.

[Shinbone_News]

We'll play a Sesame Street game.

"Minnesota Hockey's" top seven scorers in the NHL. (In no particular order)

Kyle Oksposo- Played tier 1 at SSM.

Blake Wheeler- left HS early for USHL. (tier 1 Jrs)

Dustin Byfuglien- left Roseau to play for the tier 1 Chicago Mission.

Derek Stepan- tier 1 at SSM. also youth tier 1?

David Backes- supplemented his jr and sr year with USHL(TIER 1 JRS) games.

Zach Parise- tier 1 at SSM

"TJ OSHIE"- he led all Minnesota HS scorers his sr(?) year. The kicker is that he played tier 1 in Washington state through his youth.

Nevermind, none of these players are different from the others.......

I'll recoil and listen again.

I guess a focus group of seven is better than a focus group of one. Bo, you should have a formula worked out by now: How many hours at Tier 1 development = how many NHL goals. (Nevermind about defensemen, they're like goalies without the pads and don't count.)

[Snap Happy]

We'll play a Sesame Street game.

"Minnesota Hockey's" top seven scorers in the NHL. (In no particular order)

Kyle Oksposo- Played tier 1 at SSM.

Blake Wheeler- left HS early for USHL. (tier 1 Jrs)

Dustin Byfuglien- left Roseau to play for the tier 1 Chicago Mission.

Derek Stepan- tier 1 at SSM. also youth tier 1?

David Backes- supplemented his jr and sr year with USHL(TIER 1 JRS) games.

Zach Parise- tier 1 at SSM

"TJ OSHIE"- he led all Minnesota HS scorers his sr(?) year. The kicker is that he played tier 1 in Washington state through his youth.

Nevermind, none of these players are different from the others.......

I'll recoil and listen again.

... do you really think that playing at SSM or leaving early to play juniors increased their overall ceiling? Or are these guys gifted with the athletic ability that would have brought them to this place anyway? And are there any other NHL player comparisons we can make -- what about Leddy? He's not a pure goal scorer and wasn't in HS either. Does that leave him out of the elite MN players in the NHL? -(He's not the only one).. And how many of these players you note above were products of MN Youth Hockey -- which is where this thread is posted...

[MrBoDangles]

I simply know that there is a terrible lack of games in Minnesota. Others thought the same thing and created the Elite League to p try to help the problem.

Game experience is crucial in developing a world class Hockey player. When Minnesota kids play a third to a half less games than Tier 1 or Canadian kids the "it" factor is lost. A kid scoring 50 goals in 50 games as a young kid or a kid scoring 100 goals in 100 games is going to develop faster? And which one will develop more of a scorers touch?

Those top 7 "Minnesota" scorers ALL went OUTSIDE the strict Minnesota model. The proof is in the pudding(R)

And how few do?

[Quasar]

Hi BO !!!

Four new Tier 1 Minnesota Midget teams next year !!

A whole bunch of 98's and 99's that have played year around for at least 5 years

No place for them to go after Bantams

Changing demographics ... Changing priorities

All you gotta do is kick back and wait ...

[2112]

The grass is greener? Talking about a squirt kid that will never reach his potential is so foolish doesn't deserve comment. To say MN Hockey stunts development is even dumber. You want MN Hockey to get bigger numbers and better athletes, outlaw all sports except hockey. No more basketball stealing hockey players. No more sports except hockey period. Find the 5-6 year olds that naturally skate the best. Make them Tier 1 players. Move them out of their homes and into dorms to train hockey year round. 2 week visits back home. Then we will produce hockey players!

People that think hockey players are MADE are so foolish. Nick Leddy would have been better if grew up in Toronto? Ha, maybe Montreal as he is more suited to the frog style of play?

How did Reed Larson Neal Broten, Phil Housley, Mike Ramsey, etc play well over 1,000 NHL games growing up playing hockey 5-6 months of the year for associations that didn't even win State?

Want more MN kids in the NHL, outlaw Europeans from the NHL. Especially Russians!

Zach Parise turned out fine, despite a crazy dad. Just think how good he would be if he didn't play Squirt and PW in Bloomington? What about his brother?

Well said, Bob.

The argument always rests on a notion that has been disproven about 80 ways from Sunday: That more games against better competition makes for a better player. Shall we revisit the numbers? Average time actually touching the puck in an Olympic game: Less than 60 seconds per player per game. Actual time on the ice: 12 minutes.

This is why anyone who actually coaches or plays the game says practice to game ratios should be between 2:1 and 3:1.

Tier 1 teams are good because they are regional all-star teams. Minnesota teams are good because kids are forced, every two years, to play with kids that are a full year older/bigger/faster. But in both cases, it's ~practice~, not games, where improvement and development happen. I feel privileged to drive about 10 minutes to practice 5 times a week, rather than the 1.5 hours my sister has to drive each way for Tier 1 practices twice a week in Chicago.

You want more proof in the pudding? Look at Central Scouting's current watch list and compare how many Minnesota players there are on that list versus other states (including high school AND tier 1). http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=641797


Minnesota HS: 18 players
Minnesotans in juniors and NTDP: 9 players
Connecticut HS: 6
Mass HS: 6
New Hampshire HS: 1
NoDak HS: 1
Tier 1 AAA East: 3 (2 are goalies)
Tier 1 AAA West: 0


Talk to anyone in USA Hockey and ask them how to fix Minnesota Hockey. (As I did at my Level 4 clinic last week.) They'll laugh out loud and say, "Are you crazy? Do you have any idea how good Minnesota has it?" Just the simple idea of a not-for-profit arena doesn't even exist elsewhere in the country.

Shine you forget to state that all these players are ranked at B or C level, Minnesota has a hard time producing A level skaters in recent years . This should be the concern of Minnesota hockey, why is it that top level minnesota players feel they have to leave the Minnesota model ?
You want to compare SSM to other High School programs, why is it SSM had 3 or 4 players go in last years draft before any Minnesota High School player was selected?

[Snap Happy]

I simply know that there is a terrible lack of games in Minnesota. Others thought the same thing and created the Elite League to p try to help the problem.

Game experience is crucial in developing a world class Hockey player. When Minnesota kids play a third to a half less games than Tier 1 or Canadian kids the "it" factor is lost. A kid scoring 50 goals in 50 games as a young kid or a kid scoring 100 goals in 100 games is going to develop faster? And which one will develop more of a scorers touch?

Those top 7 "Minnesota" scorers ALL went OUTSIDE the strict Minnesota model. The proof is in the pudding(R)

And how few do?

I think of the seven you mentioned - all would have developed just fine wherever they went because of the "talent" factor.

[Shinbone_News]

I bet there are hundreds of Massachusetts families thinking to themselves, "Thank god community hockey is dead, and for-profit Tier 1 AAA took its place. Look how many more top scorers we have in the NHL than Minnesota does!"

<Tries to think of one Massachusetts all-star from the past decade. Uh.. Jeremy Roenick???>

[Shinbone_News]

Shine you forget to state that all these players are ranked at B or C level, Minnesota has a hard time producing A level skaters in recent years . This should be the concern of Minnesota hockey, why is it that top level minnesota players feel they have to leave the Minnesota model ?
You want to compare SSM to other High School programs, why is it SSM had 3 or 4 players go in last years draft before any Minnesota High School player was selected?

There are no skaters ranked A at the high school or tier 1 level anywhere in the US in that preliminary scouting report. None.

SSM has high visibility nationally, not to mention the promising kids of high-profile NHL alumni. For a school that charges $40K per year tuition, they darn well better be landing a few drafts out of the deal!

[2112]

Shine you forget to state that all these players are ranked at B or C level, Minnesota has a hard time producing A level skaters in recent years . This should be the concern of Minnesota hockey, why is it that top level minnesota players feel they have to leave the Minnesota model ?
You want to compare SSM to other High School programs, why is it SSM had 3 or 4 players go in last years draft before any Minnesota High School player was selected?

There are no skaters ranked A at the high school or tier 1 level anywhere in the US in that preliminary scouting report. None.

SSM has high visibility nationally, not to mention the promising kids of high-profile NHL alumni. For a school that charges $40K per year tuition, they darn well better be landing a few drafts out of the deal!

I don`t know what report you are looking at but i saw 5 ranked as A skaters, McCoshen and Fasching were among the 5 listed. Your arguments lack substance and shows the backward thinking of the dinosaurs you represent.

[JSR]

Shine you forget to state that all these players are ranked at B or C level, Minnesota has a hard time producing A level skaters in recent years . This should be the concern of Minnesota hockey, why is it that top level minnesota players feel they have to leave the Minnesota model ?
You want to compare SSM to other High School programs, why is it SSM had 3 or 4 players go in last years draft before any Minnesota High School player was selected?

There are no skaters ranked A at the high school or tier 1 level anywhere in the US in that preliminary scouting report. None.

SSM has high visibility nationally, not to mention the promising kids of high-profile NHL alumni. For a school that charges $40K per year tuition, they darn well better be landing a few drafts out of the deal!

I don`t know what report you are looking at but i saw 5 ranked as A skaters, McCoshen and Fasching were among the 5 listed. Your arguments lack substance and shows the backward thinking of the dinosaurs you represent.

Ian McCoshen from Superior, WI??... not a MN kid despite his attendance at Schattuck, he is WI.....

[Snap Happy]

Shine you forget to state that all these players are ranked at B or C level, Minnesota has a hard time producing A level skaters in recent years . This should be the concern of Minnesota hockey, why is it that top level minnesota players feel they have to leave the Minnesota model ?
You want to compare SSM to other High School programs, why is it SSM had 3 or 4 players go in last years draft before any Minnesota High School player was selected?

There are no skaters ranked A at the high school or tier 1 level anywhere in the US in that preliminary scouting report. None.

SSM has high visibility nationally, not to mention the promising kids of high-profile NHL alumni. For a school that charges $40K per year tuition, they darn well better be landing a few drafts out of the deal!

I don`t know what report you are looking at but i saw 5 ranked as A skaters, McCoshen and Fasching were among the 5 listed. Your arguments lack substance and shows the backward thinking of the dinosaurs you represent.

I think his point was more to the fact that who cares if there's no MN HS kids in Class A - because there are no Tier 1 kids in Class A either.

[MrBoDangles]

I bet there are hundreds of Massachusetts families thinking to themselves, "Thank god community hockey is dead, and for-profit Tier 1 AAA took its place. Look how many more top scorers we have in the NHL than Minnesota does!"

<Tries to think of one Massachusetts all-star from the past decade. Uh.. Jeremy Roenick???>

Minnesota develops great skaters and players (because we practice just as much) that can hold their own in the NHL. Minnesota though, will never develop high end scorers becuse of a lack of games. SSM and other jr/Tier I youth teams fine tuned the scoring touch of those few Minnesotans by playing 60 -80 games instead of MSHSL's 25(?) games.

What do you think holds back kids that go through the MN(youth through high school) system from becoming top 20 yearly scorers in the NHL........? We should have had quite a few over the years when comparing our participation numbers.

Would be great to hear your insight on this.

You can always fall (way) back on Broten.

[SCBlueLiner]

I love how there are people who want to price the sport of hockey out of reach for all but the select few families who can afford it.

People think it's bad now with association fees, summer hockey fees, skill camp fees, skating camp fees, etc. Just wait until the full ticket price of Tier 1 AAA Bantam or Midget hockey comes knocking. $10k, $15k a year for starters. Then keep in mind there is Tier 1 AAA at the Squirt and PeeWee level for those who are truly serious ($$$) about their kid's hockey career.

Hockey families in other parts of the country ask the question "what path is the right one to take if my kid wants to play college hockey?" The response usually starts out like this: "Well, unless you live in Minnesota, your kid is going to need to play U-18 AAA as a 17 year old then he'll need to catch on with a junior team. USHL is the best option, but even in the NAHL or the EJHL a kid can get noticed. Oh, and you don't wan to be playing Midgets as an 18 yr old because these junior programs are looking at the younger kids. Either way, your kid is going to need to leave home and live with a host family when they turn 15 if you want them to have the proper development."

Sounds like a great future. I think MN Hockey should embrace this model of sending your kids off to live with strangers and paying through the nose to do so. That would surely help to grow the game. Every association should put on their recruiting material what the future holds in this sport if you want your kid to go anywhere if they have any talent. They could market how many kids their association developed to the point of leaving and playing somewhere else when they became teenagers. The hallmark of a great association. That would surely result in a record number of parents signing there kids up to play hockey.

[JSR]

There are no skaters ranked A at the high school or tier 1 level anywhere in the US in that preliminary scouting report. None.

SSM has high visibility nationally, not to mention the promising kids of high-profile NHL alumni. For a school that charges $40K per year tuition, they darn well better be landing a few drafts out of the deal!

I don`t know what report you are looking at but i saw 5 ranked as A skaters, McCoshen and Fasching were among the 5 listed. Your arguments lack substance and shows the backward thinking of the dinosaurs you represent.

I think his point was more to the fact that who cares if there's no MN HS kids in Class A - because there are no Tier 1 kids in Class A either.

Gotchya, I misunderstood which point he was arguing

[2112]

There are no skaters ranked A at the high school or tier 1 level anywhere in the US in that preliminary scouting report. None.

SSM has high visibility nationally, not to mention the promising kids of high-profile NHL alumni. For a school that charges $40K per year tuition, they darn well better be landing a few drafts out of the deal!

I don`t know what report you are looking at but i saw 5 ranked as A skaters, McCoshen and Fasching were among the 5 listed. Your arguments lack substance and shows the backward thinking of the dinosaurs you represent.

I think his point was more to the fact that who cares if there's no MN HS kids in Class A - because there are no Tier 1 kids in Class A either.

The USHL is classified as a Tier 1 hockey league, what other tier 1 league are you referring to ?

[Snap Happy]

I bet there are hundreds of Massachusetts families thinking to themselves, "Thank god community hockey is dead, and for-profit Tier 1 AAA took its place. Look how many more top scorers we have in the NHL than Minnesota does!"

<Tries to think of one Massachusetts all-star from the past decade. Uh.. Jeremy Roenick???>

Minnesota develops great skaters and players (because we practice just as much) that can hold their own in the NHL. Minnesota though, will never develop high end scorers becuse of a lack of games. SSM and other jr/Tier I youth teams fine tuned the scoring touch of those few Minnesotans by playing 60 -80 games instead of MSHSL's 25(?) games.

What do you think holds back kids that go through the MN(youth through high school) system from becoming top 20 yearly scorers in the NHL........? We should have had quite a few over the years when comparing our participation numbers.

Would be great to hear your insight on this.

You can always fall (way) back on Broten.

You conveniently leave out the hundreds of players that go no further than Tier 1 every year (despite paying ALL that $$ and playing ALL the games you say they need to play to be great). Bottom line is regardless of the amount of games you play, you either have the talent or you don't.

[Snap Happy]

I don`t know what report you are looking at but i saw 5 ranked as A skaters, McCoshen and Fasching were among the 5 listed. Your arguments lack substance and shows the backward thinking of the dinosaurs you represent.

I think his point was more to the fact that who cares if there's no MN HS kids in Class A - because there are no Tier 1 kids in Class A either.

The USHL is classified as a Tier 1 hockey league, what other tier 1 league are you referring to ?

USHL is Tier 1 Junior hockey... a little different than Tier 1 Midgets.