Best program ever?

hubbaa
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:52 am

best program...

Post by hubbaa » Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:19 pm

<br><br><br>Joe,<br><br>sounds as though they may be trying to do the same as the Mpls league which isn't much better than a bantam league, very sad the state of city hockey which used to be the best in metro area... <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Re: best program...

Post by petey1321 » Thu Aug 01, 2002 5:14 pm

There have been some pretty good lists already, so I'll just give you my top 5. I'm looking at strength over the life of the program, which includes both past and current success:<br><br>1. Roseau<br>2. Hill-Murray<br>3. Jefferson<br>4. Edina<br>5. Int'l Falls<br><br>Don't ask me why "the Falls" is so low, because they have had zero success for the past decade at least, and unless they sack up and join Class AA--which they won't, in my opinion--their prestige will fall even farther. As for Hill-Murray higher than Jefferson, I have a somewhat moral objection to putting private schools above public schools, as it often seems--at least these days--that private schools have their pick of the best players around. However, Hill-Murray built that program as a Catholic school first, even fielding an incredible hockey team when they couldn't compete in the MSHSL tournament at all. It wasn't like they just said, "Hey, let's take the best kids from the east metro" 30 years ago and have been doing it ever since. They built it around family and tradition, and I can respect that. I have Jefferson ahead of Edina because other than the 97 title team, Edina has been a non-entity for a long time, and their youth teams have not given much room for optimism for the future.<br><br>Anyway, I actually started this post to talk about the state of inner-city hockey, not make my list and explain it. But, here we are. As for Minneapolis and St. Paul public schools, it's not just hockey where they have fallen off the map. They are basically terrible at every sport besides basketball (and even then, only Henry and North have done much). Any kid who seems promising at some sport (like those wrestlers from Washburn who went to Kennedy last year, for example, or Kyle Gallus, a Jefferson senior next year who moved from Southwest for hockey as a bantam) is out of the Twin Cities public schools as fast as it's possible. Why exactly that is, I don't know, because Southwest, South, and St. Paul Central(and possibly more) are very strong academically, which SHOULD make for kids who will actually stay around. But, I guess the word got out several years back that you don't want to go to an inner-city public school, and that was all she wrote. It's pretty sad to see, but looking around the nation, it seems like it was inevitable. <br><br>One more note on that topic, I just can't understand why the St. Paul conference allows Cretin to dominate it like it does every year in baseball and football. Generally, Cretin's teams in those sports have zero competition until playoffs, and even then, it's a pretty good chance that you'll see them in the state tourney. Now, their past record in the tourney is a good one, but honestly, how is it that teams like Minnetonka and Eden Prairie and whoever else is good that year have to fight their way through tough (or at least close) games in the conference and throughout the playoffs, but Cretin gets a free pass. I just don't get it. I don't want to be seen as a whiner--because lord knows I can't stand people who whine on here--but objectively speaking, how is it fair to the kids who play tougher schedules (or, for that matter, the kids that get beaten 76-0 on a regular basis) to have Cretin just humiliate its opponents all year? If the St. Paul schools at least are serious about getting kids to stick around and play there, they might want to think about putting them against competition they can at least play adequately with. <p></p><i></i>

OleGreenway
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 6:49 am

Johnson

Post by OleGreenway » Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:20 am

FYI, Cretin will be playing all the teams in the Classic Lake this fall in football although they will not be eligible for the title. Johnson should be included in a top five list. They had some success in the 90's and definetely were the only metro team to give the North competition in the early decades of the tournament. Johnson will never be competitive again. The student population has changed such that their is no interest in playing hockey and/or the families cannot afford to play hockey. Any good players will opt for the Juniors or Hill-Murray. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

best program

Post by joe lulic » Fri Aug 02, 2002 8:19 am

Petey, I feel your pain. I have two kids at Cretin. It isnt a good situation for any body. Cretin wants out.The city schools want them out. I would like to go to a football game this fall instead of a massacre. Baseball isnt that bad but hockey is. The problem is where do they go? The suburban conferences dont want Cretin. They dont have their own football field, they use Centrals, so if they leave the city, does that continue? With hockey they play a real nice non conference schedule so it isnt a big deal. The other sports,( girls volleyball, basketball, softball,track etc) are very competitive in the city. So do you leave the conference in one sport and stay for the others? How does that work? It sounds like they are trying to play more non conference games in football but that is hard to schedule, especially in mid season. It isnt an easy situation. Rememeber, Cretin is in the middle of St Paul. It is an inner city school. It is about 6 blocks from Highland and maybe a couple of miles from Central. They would love to play a different schedule but it isnt that easy. <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Re: best program

Post by petey1321 » Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:53 pm

Good points, Joe. It's good to get an inside perspective. I would think that the best thing for all parties involved would be a Duluth East style no-conference-play schedule, at least for football. There is always the problem that then the kids won't get a shot at a conference title (of course, if they have no conference), but I'd wager that the St. Paul City Conference title doesn't mean a whole lot to the boys at Cretin, especially compared to a section or state title anyway. That would be my only suggestion. As for them not having a field, I don't know. That obviously complicates things. Maybe one of those college fields (I'm thinking specifically St. Thomas, though I don't know the seating or anything) or just have Central allow Cretin to stay around. I sure would allow them to use my field if it meant not getting whipped 46-3. But, as you said, getting them out of that conference is a win-win for all parties involved, at least in football and maybe baseball and/or hockey. <p></p><i></i>

hubbaa
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:52 am

best program...

Post by hubbaa » Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:29 pm

Petey and Joe,<br><br>It does sound like Cretin (football) is giving up on the conference thing, simply because no conference wants them. It appears they are trying and probably will have a Duluth East (hockey) setup being an independant in a couple years. I don't know what they are planning for a home field, I would have to go along with Petey and suggest U of St Thomas.<br><br>It seems we are seeing this problem ( a school that dominates in a particular sport) a little bit more lately in more sports than in the past. I could name schools in football, basketball, soccer, tennis and probably a couple more if I thought a bit (although my head would begin to ache). With open enrollment it is easy to pick a school that excells in a particular sport that interests the student/parent and bring home a couple trophies in the process. More and more leagues don't want to compete against these programs simply because it is embarressing. Being independant is one solution, another is they could opt out of the high school league altogether like SSM, but this would only work for the private schools. I don't think the public's would have any chance getting money for this and the private's could get money a bit easier.<br><br>I'm afraid open enrollment has attributed to this problem to some extent, I'm not sure if there is a good solution.<br><br>Another note: What I find most interesting is SSP has the highest percent of students that transfer into the district each year, it appears none of them know how to play hockey.... The international studies (Russian program) is very well regarded. But I thought hockey was popular in Russia, they should be teaching those kids how to skate... <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Re: best program...

Post by petey1321 » Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:38 pm

I have hacked into Petey1321's computer because my name no longer exists, "The Best Damn Poster Period". <br><br>For those who care, Cretin is entering the Classic Lake after this season, for football. I won't tarnish Petey's name any longer, peace. <p></p><i></i>

baderisapunk
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:41 am

Best program

Post by baderisapunk » Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:44 pm

Worst damn speller ever- it is about time you got banned! <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Re: Best program

Post by petey1321 » Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:44 pm

The only reason somebody should get banned is for personal threats or something of that nature. Simply having an opinion with which you disagree is no reason for banning anyone. And, for what it's worth, he can't remember his password, he wasn't banned. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

programs

Post by joe lulic » Mon Aug 05, 2002 10:17 am

I think the emphasis is starting to turn towards competitiveness and away from geography and tradition when conferences are formed and reformed. Obviously,Cretin and the Lake conference have no traditional nor geographic ties. The Suburban conferences have been redone to relfect the current levels of enrollment and competiveness. I dont know if that is good or not. These things can be cyclical. We have always liked the geographic rivalries, the border battles or neighborhood battles. But if they arent battles anymore, than it is just hanging on to something that doesnt exist. Time will tell. One example of short sightedness on this issue was when the UofM dropped Wisconsin as the last game of the season in football for Iowa cause that was the hot rivalry of the day. Well, it was a stupid thing to do. Hayden Fry is over with and Alvarez is still going. Cretin vs Wayzata .. let the new traditions start I guess. <p></p><i></i>

statebb1522
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:10 pm

st paul city conference

Post by statebb1522 » Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:10 pm

With all this talk about Cretin in the City Conference and what not, I would just like to say that CDH athletes don't like playing in the horrible conference just as much as other schools don't like competing against us. It's not as easy as one might think to just go and switch conferences; CDH has to be accepted in another conference. The Raider football team is definitely taking a step in the right direction. Hopefully the rest of the CDH athletic program will follow in the footsteps of Coach Kallok and Co. and become independent. <p></p><i></i>

Sparlimb
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:11 am

Re: st paul city conference

Post by Sparlimb » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:33 am

One thing that is too bad is that H-M and Cretin got seperated back in the late 80's. They are natural rivals, both being Catholic, and even the private school haters probably don't mind seeing them beat up on each other. While H-M would probably not do well in most sports against Cretin, it wasn't always so. Back when they went their seperate ways H-M was doing just fine against Cretin and anyone else in the other sports. But for two schools that are fairly close to each other, it's a shame we have a much higher tradition of playing Duluth East in hockey every year then Cretin. I don't think there has been a game since the late 80's. I should ask up at the school why this is... <p></p><i></i>

Reggie Dunlap
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:02 pm

Re: st paul city conference

Post by Reggie Dunlap » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:44 am

I agree w/ petey, I don't know if St. Thomas would go for it, but Macalaster has a good field, is a little closer to Cretin and I'm sure they wouldn't mind seeing some real football played there once in a while. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START 8) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... lasses.gif ALT="8)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Sparlimb - were you reffering to HM & Cretin not meeing in football or hockey. I know they met in hockey two years ago and maybe last year. I don't think I would want to see HM & Cretin play in football anymore. The decline of the football program is, to me, one of the saddest sights I have seen in high school athletics. I'm not old enough to see the 'city' schools in thier hayday. But I do know for a fact about 12 years ago they were a top 5 big school (what is now AAAAA)football team. Now they have troubles competing against AA teams. For football they could take Cretin's spot in the St. Paul conference and based on they last 5 years or so, they would be average at best. very sad. <p></p><i></i>

Sparlimb
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:11 am

HM, CDH and related topics (rambling)

Post by Sparlimb » Wed Aug 07, 2002 7:30 am

Hill played them in 2001, and CDH won 4-2. I think I blanked that entire season from my memory banks as it was a lost cause. They played them in 1994-1995 and before that was 1989-1990. My point being that H-M plays Duluth East usually twice a year and maybe a third time if they meet at state. It's odd. But in defense, CDH hasn't had a very strong program, although it has made huge strides these last couple of years. So I think part of the reasons are that Hill was looking to play more dominant teams that they could compete against. So that's where the annual games against Edina, Jefferson, Moorhead and Duluth East come from. I do miss seeing the Twin Cities Surburban hockey games, as playing teams like Maple Grove, Anoka, and Elk River was much better then watching the likes of Mahtomedi, Tartan and Sibley. At least they are keeping the tradition of playing WBL at least once in the non-conference season. Do any of you Duluth East fans mind playing the independent schedule? I see the positives of both sides, but I hate to lose those traditional rivals. Although a very good argument can be made for why H-M belongs in the same conference in sports as No. St. Paul and Tartan (proximity and school size). Anyway, I'm ready for the season to start. But since I have a few months left to wait, I'll have to pacify myself with football and the Gopher Hockey Highlight Video coming out soon. I did just watch the championship vs. Maine again with my son, and it was a good time. Maine really played a good game. I also watched the High School championship game again about a month ago, and while Hill played as well as they could, I can't argue that Holy Angels was a step faster and on the verge of pulling away many times. Although the third period may have been the most wide open 3rd period of a championship game in a long long time. Anyway, sorry for rambling... <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

best ever

Post by joe lulic » Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:48 pm

I agree that CDH vs HM sounds like a great rivalry but they really have been different for quite a while. CDH is way out ahead in football, baseball and basket ball. HM has been way ahead in hockey, although the gap has been closed in recent years. I would be surprised if CDH hasnt talked to the colleges about use of their fields. I am not surprised tht no college would want their field chewed up on Friday night, especialy if the college played on Sat afternoon. Anyway, if the Lake has agreed to schedule games, I assume they are willing to play at Central (Griffin Field). How in the hell did we get started on this.. isnt this the best hockey program ever topic? Insanity!<br><br> <br> <p></p><i></i>

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