Attendance at the State Tournament

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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about22pandas
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Post by about22pandas » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:25 pm

Rocketwrister wrote:04-05...that would of been Bartholdi (spelling???) , who (i believe) has 2 daughters...no boys. huh, either way...

fact of the matter is girls hockey is 2nd stage to boys; and to be honest that won't change.
Just going off what I was told, again, I've never even been to Cloquet so I couldn't tell you who the coaches were 10 years ago. Could it have been his daughter's youth games?


You are right, it is 2nd and always will be. I'd like to see the gap though go from night and day to something a little more respectable like dusk and day.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:32 pm

MN_Bowhunter wrote:The MN_Bowhunter thinks it sounds silly when he talks about himself in the 3rd person. The MN_Bowhunter thinks it sounds way more awesomer when The Wolfman does it.
The Wolfman is the master, no doubt! 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99z-H_NEccU

U14ABystander
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Post by U14ABystander » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:00 pm

[quote="pepperpot"]"Ridiculous"? I'm sick of the city-its whining about the lack of more metro teams in the tournament. Wah,wah, wah. The tournament is about geographic inclusiveness. NO different than any other sport having divisions. Is it "fair" the Seahawks and 49ers couldn't both be in the superbowl? Programs talent level cycles. someone who is good this year may not be in a few years. The reason the tournament is good for HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS is that you get representation from all over the state. Now go back and finish your gerbers strained carrots, whiner. :roll:[/quote]

My point: It would be a more exciting, more popular tournament if the best teams could play in it. That's all. Most of the teams in this years state tournament would have been handily defeated by the 5th best team in Section 6. It's not a "Cities" thing. It's a "I want to see the best teams play in the state tournament" thing. It would seem you are the only one that has a "cities" thing.

AV dad
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Post by AV dad » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:57 pm

U14ABystander: I am curious how you would work out the logistics of a tournament that brings together the best 8 teams in the state each year.

The current format allows a path to the state championship for every team in the state; in theory, even a team with no regular-season wins could run the table and be state champs. I don't see how your proposal would allow for this, as it would require someone to cast votes to decide who those best eight teams are. Would we seed all teams in the state 1-64, and send an eighth seed like Rosemount to play their first round sectional in Duluth?

Even if you worked this system out, I don't think most people want to see a tourney comprised entirely of large west-metro schools. I think the geographic diversity provided by the current format allows new teams like Luverne to break through.

blondegirlsdad
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Post by blondegirlsdad » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:40 pm

I love the "nobody would want to see" argument.

Here's a bulletin: Outside of the participating schools, hardly anyone wants to see it now. We were in the tournament and couldn't even get the band to go to the game. When the boys went a couple years ago, EVERYONE went. It's just the way things are. Girls Hockey just doesn't have the traditional fan base that Boys' does. (Come to think of it, Boys' doesn't even have what they used to have, but that's a separate deal.)

But maybe, just maybe, if you could get the best 8 teams playing, maybe actual hockey fans might enjoy it more. Maybe not, no guarantees, but the idea that if I don't get a team from up north, I'm not going argument is ridiculous. There were about as many people at the D6 Sectional games as there were for State.

How many people from schools who aren't involved go now? Unless they dressed up as green seats, you could probably count 'em on your fingers and toes. The only legitimate argument against a re-seeded playdown is the logistical nightmare it would present. But you never know unless you're willing to try something new. And the current format is not working so successfully that you shouldn't consider anything or everything to maybe make it better.

AV dad
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Post by AV dad » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:58 pm

You can't wave your hand at the logistics problem and say, other than that, it would be simple to implement. I really am curious to see how that would work.

I am not saying that because we have always done it this way in the past, we must always do it this way in the future; I am saying that you will be replacing the concentrated griping of District 6 fans with more dispersed griping of those teams who were either dropped from the tourney because no voters watched them play or who are travelling 250 miles on a school night for their first-round sectional game.

If I am mistaken on the logistics, let me know.

wolfman
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Post by wolfman » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:06 pm

I feel bad for the section 6 kids. Its just not fair that all of them dont get the oppertunity to play in the state tourney. :wink:

U10Father
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Post by U10Father » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:10 pm

I didn't hear the guy say it would be easy, he just said it was worth taking a look at.

And I don't care which section they come from, I just happen to agree that it would be more fun to watch the 8 best teams.

blondegirlsdad
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Post by blondegirlsdad » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:18 pm

Well, actually, I agreed that it would be very difficult to do logistically. But let's not let that get in the way of the same old argument.

SECoach
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Post by SECoach » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:20 pm

U10Father wrote:I didn't hear the guy say it would be easy, he just said it was worth taking a look at.

And I don't care which section they come from, I just happen to agree that it would be more fun to watch the 8 best teams.
Sometimes, in fact I'd say often, the best teams don't play for the championship. This happens in all sport, at all levels, amateur and professional. That's the way it is and in my opinion, it would diminish the competition if it were otherwise.

luckyEPDad
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Post by luckyEPDad » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:50 pm

U14ABystander wrote: My point: It would be a more exciting, more popular tournament if the best teams could play in it. That's all. Most of the teams in this years state tournament would have been handily defeated by the 5th best team in Section 6. It's not a "Cities" thing. It's a "I want to see the best teams play in the state tournament" thing. It would seem you are the only one that has a "cities" thing.
If you want people to take you seriously don't make unfounded claims. I assume you refer to Maple Grove as the 5th best team in section 6. Maple Grove would be competitive, but they would not "have handily defeated" most of the teams in the state tournament.

From what I witnessed, if you really want to boost attendance at the state tournament limit it to small, new or private schools. This year's big draw in 2A was Andover, last year it was Forrest Lake. That they braved the horrible road conditions shows how dedicated the Roseau faithful are. Hill Murray and Benilde had fairly good draws (for a girl's hockey game). Under no circumstances allow Eden Prairie and Lakeville North to play each other. The last two 3rd place game were so poorly attended a black hole formed and sucked all life and energy out of the arena.

AV dad
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Post by AV dad » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:05 pm

Section 6 is likely to be loaded for years to come...how about a state tournament that combines the Top 5 from Section 6 with the other seven sections from around the state? It would be a 12 team tourney, with the top 4 Section 6 schools getting a first-round bye. Maple Grove, you must play a first-round game.

I am not bound by tradition!!

D6 Girls Fan
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Post by D6 Girls Fan » Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:23 pm

The irony, of course, is that Section 6 isn't even going to be anywhere near as strong next year. Benilde will be way down, Tonka and Hopkins lose top-tier talent, and even if Wayzata and Maple Grove are improved, they won't be as good as talent in other sections. But I do agree with trying to find some way to get the best eight teams playing at the end of the year if humanly possible. Next year, it will completely unfair to either Edina or Eden Prairie, both of whom will be improved and who both can't play in State. The talent will always move around (except at Hill Murray who will always find a way to get the top east-side kids) - it's been in Section 6 the last few years. But it won't always be.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:32 pm

I do think the state-wide representation needs to be preserved. One idea that would do this while improving the quality of the tournament would be to leave Sections 1, 7 and 8 pretty much as is, but then seed the metro area teams and form five relatively equal metro sections each year.
It would prevent a disproportionate number of the best metro teams being lumped into a single section (just by virtue of geography) and would not impose the kind of onerous travel requirements that a state-wide seeding system would.

No system is perfect or would be universally liked, but this kind of "hybrid" approach just might work.

pepperpot
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Post by pepperpot » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:57 pm

U10Father wrote: And I don't care which section they come from, I just happen to agree that it would be more fun to watch the 8 best teams.
More fun? That's rich. The constant whining from the never-satisfieds is so old. NO ATHLETIC LEAGUE DOES WHAT YOU WHINERS ARE PROPOSING! Not the NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA, etc. etc. etc. Why the girls state tournament then? Because your little girls team lost to another metro team, that's why. You feel as though you've been robbed when a lowly team like Thief or Warroad makes an appearance instead of another D6 team. :roll: Get over it. It's High school girls hockey. Put it into perspective. It's aligned geographically, just like other leagues. You get the best from each area, coming together to participate in what is still the best chance most of these girls will have to be on a stage like that, ever. So, once again accept it for what it is, grab a box of tissues and cry your self to sleep. It aint changing to accommodate a bunch of helicopter parents reliving their failed high school athletic ambitions. Oh and since I'm at it, you will NEVER fill a place like the Excel, or even get close to it. If it wasn't for a bunch of malcontents in my town they'd be playing at Ridder, which is a much better location for that type of crowd (seeing as it's all about fun for the viewers).

U10Father
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Post by U10Father » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:59 pm

pepperpot wrote: More fun? That's rich. The constant whining from the never-satisfieds is so old. NO ATHLETIC LEAGUE DOES WHAT YOU WHINERS ARE PROPOSING! Not the NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA, etc. etc. etc. Why the girls state tournament then? Because your little girls team lost to another metro team, that's why.
Sorry, I just didn't think it was that much fun watching most of that State Tournament first round. If you enjoy the 7-0 games, more power to you.

And unless I'm missing something, or the news doesn't get reported to us here as well as it does up Nort'... Doesn't the NCAA seed their tournament irrespective of geography?

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:32 pm

U10Father wrote:Doesn't the NCAA seed their tournament irrespective of geography?
Unfortunately no they don't, at least on the women's side. In the quarterfinals one of their objectives is to minimize the cost of travel (which the NCAA pays for) so they do what they can to limit the number of games requiring air travel to just one.

U10Father
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Post by U10Father » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:38 am

Sorry, meant men's basketball. Pepper's point was that no sport ever seeds based on ability, which is obviously not the case.

Bulldog3489
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Post by Bulldog3489 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:13 am

U10Father wrote:
pepperpot wrote: More fun? That's rich. The constant whining from the never-satisfieds is so old. NO ATHLETIC LEAGUE DOES WHAT YOU WHINERS ARE PROPOSING! Not the NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA, etc. etc. etc. Why the girls state tournament then? Because your little girls team lost to another metro team, that's why.
Sorry, I just didn't think it was that much fun watching most of that State Tournament first round. If you enjoy the 7-0 games, more power to you.

And unless I'm missing something, or the news doesn't get reported to us here as well as it does up Nort'... Doesn't the NCAA seed their tournament irrespective of geography?
Not really following you. Who would you have replaced in the state tournament for what teams?

The Lake Conference champions had a losing record in the state tournament, getting manhandled in their last game. Would you take out Eden Prairie in favor of a weaker Lake Conference team, or just take out all Lake Conference teams?

In the first round of the tourney, Benilde blew out Roseau, but Roseau gave up 7 goals on just 26 shots. On the other hand, Roseau took the section 6 runner up to overtime with dead even shots in late December. If they replaced Roseau for Minnetonka would you have enjoyed the tournament more?

hockeywild7
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Post by hockeywild7 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:26 pm

Sections and state are exciting because everyone has a chance and you never know what's going to happen. Sometimes the "best" or "better" teams don't make it. You can't legislate that. What some of you are really proposing is eliminating the section tournament and just putting the top 8 ranked teams in the state tournament. In my opinion the section tournament is the most exciting.

Nimrod
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Post by Nimrod » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:25 pm

This issue has been bantered about for years. One side is frustrated because they see several teams making it to State that appear far inferior to their team or other teams in their section. For example, two years ago BSM played 7 or 8 games against teams that made it to state and out scored them something like 30 to 5 during the regular season. Might have been 45 to 6, can't remember. Even the final LPH rankings had them 2nd in state and they didn't even get to state. And then you have those that want geographical representation because it allows some teams to play each other that otherwise wouldn't happen (I get this and like it too; even though Roseau vs. BSM this year was a total mismatch, it was fun to play someone new).

However, if people are honest, they really want geographical representation because their team is not in the loaded section. And if you revisit this issue in 5 years and suddenly the out state sections are the dominant teams, they will be singing a different tune. Personally, i would like a system where every team starts section playoffs with a chance to make it to State but at some point we get at least 5 of the top 8 teams into the tourney; even if that means 4 of them are in a northern section, western suburban section or eastern suburban section. Of course if a Forest Lake or Roseau team beats one of these top 5-8 teams in a playoff system to get to State, they have earned it and should go. Division I coaches have expressed frustration with the current HS system as well, including a radio interview with Brad Frost that I heard myself. He said something like the current system leaves the State tourney under represented and watered down. I posted a more direct quote a few weeks back.

I am not smart enough to create the system that allows everyone to have a chance while preventing geography from substantially favoring some while substantially harming others. And given the fact that the State HS folks can't even prevent teams from playing ineligible players, I seriously doubt they will ever figure out how to fix this issue. So, i guess it is what is for the foreseeable future. And back to the topic, its unfortunate as in my humble opinion the only fans that will go to watch a top 1 or 2 team play a 20th or 25th ranked team at state are the players' parents and maybe their bands if they bother to make an appearance. In that scenario you will get a much larger attendance if you played the game at one of the team's home rinks.

greybeard58
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Post by greybeard58 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:39 am

As a start why not bring back the back door regions as they were called in the early part of the hockey tournament.
First you change from 8 sections to 6, then after all section finals are settled then have the runner up teams from the 6 section finals go into 2 pools and play for the remaining 2 spots. As and example 2 groups 123, 456 with the better record getting a bye.
This would be for both boys and girls.

Nordic
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Post by Nordic » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:22 pm

GB 58, what a great idea, Kind of a second chance or wild card, it would bring two more teams that are good enough to make it, might keep the 13-1 single A games from happening. Would make for a stronger bracket.
But, such a good idea it won't be considered, or maybe...

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