Vannelli (STA) talks about early departure

Section 8 guy · Post by **Section 8 guy** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:00 am

While I can't speak to Vanellii's intentions, I think most people that feel staying is the better choice in most cases are coming at it from the perspective of what is right for the kid in total as a person, not just as a hockey player. My $ would say this is likely true at least to some degree with Vanelli as well, but I certainly can't say for sure.

I doubt this is ever the case with the junior team coach.

Just Checking · Post by **Just Checking** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:43 am

Section 8 well said. I gotta believe Vanelli, being a teacher, is more concerned about the kid, then wins and losses. But I have been wrong before.
The argument about go or stay is totally subjective obviously because the path they choose is the path we see. Can't know how it would have been otherwise. Some make it some don't both ways.
I was thinking about guys that stay and go and the likelihood of injury or simply poor play and losing their offer. I am not looking to dig up dirt, and the vast majority of offers do come through thank goodness. But if we are going to try to look at it objectively. We need some examples of guys who didn't make it and why.

Guys who stayed and and had an offer but lost it. Zach Glienke at Maine. Not sure if injury or other reason. I know there was a coaching change there in Maine. Not listed on NAHL roster as committed. May still play D1 mind you. Others?

Guys who left and had an offer. Voltin may still offer from UND but he went from National team to USHL to NA to BCHL. He is not listed as committed on the BCHL website. Others?

GoBigorGoHome · Post by **GoBigorGoHome** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:55 am

Section 8 guy wrote:While I can't speak to Vanellii's intentions, I think most people that feel staying is the better choice in most cases are coming at it from the perspective of what is right for the kid in total as a person, not just as a hockey player. My $ would say this is likely true at least to some degree with Vanelli as well, but I certainly can't say for sure.

I doubt this is ever the case with the junior team coach.

Don't be so quick to reach that conclusion. Most junior teams do not want players who will become homesick a week after leaving home. They spend a great deal of time counseling families on exactly what to expect and making sure the individual is mature enough to handle all aspects of junior life. Believe it or not, junior hockey is a business, and just like you wouldn't hire an unstable employee, junior teams don't want unstable or insecure athletes. Is it better for a mature individual to have his parents helicoptering over him, or for him to learn independence and self-reliance on his own? The answer is a personal one, as is the decision to stay or leave. There is no one size fits all answer.

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:25 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:While I can't speak to Vanellii's intentions, I think most people that feel staying is the better choice in most cases are coming at it from the perspective of what is right for the kid in total as a person, not just as a hockey player. My $ would say this is likely true at least to some degree with Vanelli as well, but I certainly can't say for sure.

I doubt this is ever the case with the junior team coach.

Exactly.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:31 pm

Just Checking wrote: I think what he is saying is what is the rush? I think the two of you agree. But rushing it, leaving early, brings more peril into play. There is more to lose than to gain would be another way of phrasing it. If a kid is a year older, he is a year more prepared for life away from home. He also says that for the completely dominant player it may make sense to leave, e.g. Novak.

The rush is because the NHL draft is televised and all you see are 18 year old kids. How can a 16 year old hockey player watch that and not think "If scouts aren't talking to me now I'm done"?

Puck Whisperer · Post by **Puck Whisperer** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:42 pm

luckyEPDad wrote:
Just Checking wrote: I think what he is saying is what is the rush? I think the two of you agree. But rushing it, leaving early, brings more peril into play. There is more to lose than to gain would be another way of phrasing it. If a kid is a year older, he is a year more prepared for life away from home. He also says that for the completely dominant player it may make sense to leave, e.g. Novak.
The rush is because the NHL draft is televised and all you see are 18 year old kids. How can a 16 year old hockey player watch that and not think "If scouts aren't talking to me now I'm done"?

How about - The rush is because the NHL draft is televised and all you see are 18 year old kids. How can a father/mother of a 16 year old hockey player watch that and not think "If scouts aren't talking to me now
I'm done"?

Just having fun. I think it all comes down to the maturity of the kid - the chance of being in the NHL draft v.s what they will be missing (Sr. year of high school) leaving early. I understand very well the development aspect I am just talking about the emotional side. Trying to achieve the highest goal or something they can't get back. I can't judge either way -

I know multiple kids that stayed home and left early (all successful kids post high school) - these are my buddies kids and a couple I coached early on - the common reply from the early departures was "wish I stayed" but this is just my little corner of the world though.

Stick Save · Post by **Stick Save** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:43 pm

The whole premise around the non-stop preaching on this topic is in my opinion flawed. HS coaches and the MN hockey royalty all talk about how it's best to stay in the nurturing environment of the home until they graduate.

There is one problem with that however. It only applies to a percentage of boys that I know. The reality is that there are also many boys that come 16 and 17 don't necessarily need the daily kiss from mom, or the 'Attaboy' from dad. They are ready in their minds to move on and start a life away from their family environment. Many parents know the difficulties of this age where the child is ready to move on and doesn't want to be under their parents anymore. Unfortunately there are no great options at this age in our current culture, aside from costly boarding schools, etc.

But fortunately, skilled hockey players can have an opportunity to gain the head-start in their life they are wanting through junior hockey. To think the allure of moving away to play juniors is ONLY about the hockey for many of these boys is nonsense. Many are ready to gain more independence from home - and billet families can be a great next step (vs. home to college dorm.)

Somehow we are led to believe that something magical takes place when every child turns 18 years old - that they transform overnight from momma's boy into an adult. It's ridiculous, every kid is different and some are ready to start their life, believe it or not, before they reach their 18th birthday. And if the boy seems ready emotionally for it, it can be a tremendous opportunity and create lifelong memories.

Gotothenetman · Post by **Gotothenetman** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm

Is he talking about a early departure from section 3AA this year?

Puck Whisperer · Post by **Puck Whisperer** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:26 pm

Stick Save wrote:The whole premise around the non-stop preaching on this topic is in my opinion flawed. HS coaches and the MN hockey royalty all talk about how it's best to stay in the nurturing environment of the home until they graduate.

There is one problem with that however. It only applies to a percentage of boys that I know. The reality is that there are also many boys that come 16 and 17 don't necessarily need the daily kiss from mom, or the 'Attaboy' from dad. They are ready in their minds to move on and start a life away from their family environment. Many parents know the difficulties of this age where the child is ready to move on and doesn't want to be under their parents anymore. Unfortunately there are no great options at this age in our current culture, aside from costly boarding schools, etc.

But fortunately, skilled hockey players can have an opportunity to gain the head-start in their life they are wanting through junior hockey. To think the allure of moving away to play juniors is ONLY about the hockey for many of these boys is nonsense. Many are ready to gain more independence from home - and billet families can be a great next step (vs. home to college dorm.)

Somehow we are led to believe that something magical takes place when every child turns 18 years old - that they transform overnight from momma's boy into an adult. It's ridiculous, every kid is different and some are ready to start their life, believe it or not, before they reach their 18th birthday. And if the boy seems ready emotionally for it, it can be a tremendous opportunity and create lifelong memories.

Totally agree - I have one in college, a sophomore and one in middle school. I understand the different mentality of age levels. As I said - it is based on the maturity of the kid. Just relayed my experience with the talented players that I know personally who left early and are still doing very well - wished they would have finished High School with their buddies. Simple as that. Call it hindsight from a couple 19 year olds in the sea of hockey.

Your right they don't need that daily hug or kiss....But you can agree these kids 16/17/18 have life all figured out right?

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:46 pm

Stick Save wrote:The whole premise around the non-stop preaching on this topic is in my opinion flawed. HS coaches and the MN hockey royalty all talk about how it's best to stay in the nurturing environment of the home until they graduate.

There is one problem with that however. It only applies to a percentage of boys that I know. The reality is that there are also many boys that come 16 and 17 don't necessarily need the daily kiss from mom, or the 'Attaboy' from dad. They are ready in their minds to move on and start a life away from their family environment. Many parents know the difficulties of this age where the child is ready to move on and doesn't want to be under their parents anymore. Unfortunately there are no great options at this age in our current culture, aside from costly boarding schools, etc.

But fortunately, skilled hockey players can have an opportunity to gain the head-start in their life they are wanting through junior hockey. To think the allure of moving away to play juniors is ONLY about the hockey for many of these boys is nonsense. Many are ready to gain more independence from home - and billet families can be a great next step (vs. home to college dorm.)

Somehow we are led to believe that something magical takes place when every child turns 18 years old - that they transform overnight from momma's boy into an adult. It's ridiculous, every kid is different and some are ready to start their life, believe it or not, before they reach their 18th birthday. And if the boy seems ready emotionally for it, it can be a tremendous opportunity and create lifelong memories.

Every kid ever born

has thought, "I can't wait to get outta here".

Part of being a teenager, little to do with hockey itself.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:18 am

Love the loyalty of those 40 man rosters.

Section 8 guy · Post by **Section 8 guy** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:39 pm

A couple of questions we will never know the answer to.....

1). I wonder how many guys left early and made it.......but wouldn't have made it anyways if they had stayed?

I can't say for sure.....but My $ says this is pretty uncommon. If you were good enough to get there as a younger player......how likely is it you wouldn't have been better at every level as an older, more experienced player at every level following the same path but slower?

2). I wonder how many guys left early and didn't make it......but would have made it if they had played as an older, more experienced player at every level?

Some, no question.

3). I wonder how many guys left and didn't make it.......but are glad they left early?

I can't say I know for sure.......but Probably not very many.

3). I wonder how many guys left and didn't make it......but regret they left early?

It's pretty well documented.........quite a few.

You can probably figure out my opinion on the topic from the commentary above. That doesn't mean I don't think anyone should go early....but I do think far more kids go than should. Way more. If it's clear that you are going to be a very high end player at the next level.....by all means go. If that's not clear......you may want to hold off or you may be reducing your chances of making it.

And if your response is going to be "every situation is different" or " there is no right or wrong answer"...... I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that you are likely reducing your odds of success unless it's a no brainer that you will clearly be a high end player at the next level.

alcloseshaver · Post by **alcloseshaver** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:54 pm

Brings me back to the ER kid that left with ten games left in his senior year the day after HDM. Lot's of opinions were posted on this site. He has not played in Fargo's first 5 league games, is he hurt, healthy scratch? Would this opportunity have still been there?

GoBigorGoHome · Post by **GoBigorGoHome** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:18 am

Section 8 guy wrote:And if your response is going to be "every situation is different" or " there is no right or wrong answer"...... I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that you are likely reducing your odds of success unless it's a no brainer that you will clearly be a high end player at the next level.

The WHL offers better coaching, better training, better nutrition and better competition in comparison to MSHSL. Not sure how these can be viewed as barriers to success. Yes, those things expedite not only the development process, but the weeding out process as well. If Little Johnny Superstar can't overcome his hankering for Big Macs and floating out near the blueline, he will be found out much sooner. This doesn't mean his, or anyone else's, odds would have been better had he chosen to stay in high school, it only means he wasn't mature enough to make the jump and the decision was a bad one for him and him alone. Others are more than mature enough, will adapt to the change, and will be successful.

Shortshift · Post by **Shortshift** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:35 pm

This could be a great list for "The Exiled One" to start... Maybe go back 5-10 years... Who left? Who didn't? Where they are now? Those are just a few... I do believe in staying... And I do understand there are a few exceptions for a certain few kids... I just think we would be surprised on how many didn't end up where they thought they would...

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:41 pm

Go, Stay, it really doesn't matter, if you can play they will find you. If you can't they'll find that out too.

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:50 pm

keepyourheadup wrote:Go, Stay, it really doesn't matter, if you can play they will find you. If you can't they'll find that out too.

I'm more and more coming to the opinion that this old sage is outdated.

It was fine in the days of lesser US/worldwide numbers playing hockey, but in these days of every state in the US seeming to produce top talent, let alone elsewhere, I'm not sure it applies anymore.

I see more and more kids marketing themselves and/or being marketed, to increase exposure, etc., i.e.

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:53 pm

Shortshift wrote:This could be a great list for "The Exiled One" to start... Maybe go back 5-10 years... Who left? Who didn't? Where they are now? Those are just a few... I do believe in staying... And I do understand there are a few exceptions for a certain few kids... I just think we would be surprised on how many didn't end up where they thought they would...

Speaking for myself, I don't think it would be surprising at all.

I've always had the opinion that fading into obscurity, in such (leaving early) cases, is more the norm than not.

But it's just an opinion based on the experiences I've seen/heard about, etc., which hardly constitutes 100% accuracy in the total picture.

Section 8 guy · Post by **Section 8 guy** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:45 pm

Shortshift wrote:This could be a great list for "The Exiled One" to start... Maybe go back 5-10 years... Who left? Who didn't? Where they are now? Those are just a few... I do believe in staying... And I do understand there are a few exceptions for a certain few kids... I just think we would be surprised on how many didn't end up where they thought they would...

Look at the examples of guys that were great college players that left college early never to be heard from again........nothing about the early departures high school list would surprise me.

Sparlimb · Post by **Sparlimb** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:35 pm

luckyEPDad wrote:
Just Checking wrote: I think what he is saying is what is the rush? I think the two of you agree. But rushing it, leaving early, brings more peril into play. There is more to lose than to gain would be another way of phrasing it. If a kid is a year older, he is a year more prepared for life away from home. He also says that for the completely dominant player it may make sense to leave, e.g. Novak.
The rush is because the NHL draft is televised and all you see are 18 year old kids. How can a 16 year old hockey player watch that and not think "If scouts aren't talking to me now I'm done"?

That's why you go to Hill-Murray. Get televised, noticed by scouts and stay home all at the same time.

Cootslayer · Post by **Cootslayer** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:17 pm

Am I the only one that sees the irony in this poorly written article?

Greg and his brother spend their spare time running around to Disrict 8 bantam games telling kids that their local HS is no good for the players long term development. Have to go to STA to be successful.

When Jr teams tell his athletes it is time to move on, then it is not an ok thing. LOL

puckbreath · Post by **puckbreath** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:43 pm

Cootslayer wrote:Am I the only one that sees the irony in this poorly written article?

Greg and his brother spend their spare time running around to Disrict 8 bantam games telling kids that their local HS is no good for the players long term development. Have to go to STA to be successful.

When Jr teams tell his athletes it is time to move on, then it is not an ok thing. LOL

Yeah, I got a kick outta that too.

bauerman · Post by **bauerman** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:51 am

i have coached in district 8 for 15 years 8 years of bantams , the comment the the Vannelli brothers run around district 8 bantam games is absolutely laughable. I have seen Tom at 1 bantam game during that time and that was when his son was playing ,I have seen Greg at one in 8 years, These type of bs comments is what fuels the private/public bs

Defensive Zone · Post by **Defensive Zone** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:55 am

Stick Save wrote:The whole premise around the non-stop preaching on this topic is in my opinion flawed. HS coaches and the MN hockey royalty all talk about how it's best to stay in the nurturing environment of the home until they graduate.

There is one problem with that however. It only applies to a percentage of boys that I know. The reality is that there are also many boys that come 16 and 17 don't necessarily need the daily kiss from mom, or the 'Attaboy' from dad. They are ready in their minds to move on and start a life away from their family environment. Many parents know the difficulties of this age where the child is ready to move on and doesn't want to be under their parents anymore. Unfortunately there are no great options at this age in our current culture, aside from costly boarding schools, etc.

But fortunately, skilled hockey players can have an opportunity to gain the head-start in their life they are wanting through junior hockey. To think the allure of moving away to play juniors is ONLY about the hockey for many of these boys is nonsense. Many are ready to gain more independence from home - and billet families can be a great next step (vs. home to college dorm.)

Somehow we are led to believe that something magical takes place when every child turns 18 years old - that they transform overnight from momma's boy into an adult. It's ridiculous, every kid is different and some are ready to start their life, believe it or not, before they reach their 18th birthday. And if the boy seems ready emotionally for it, it can be a tremendous opportunity and create lifelong memories.

I have to disagree with you. Boys in high school need as much TLC as if they were in elementary or middle school, but of course shown in different ways. I am a school teacher and I can honestly say that every student that walks in my class room likes some sort of acknowledgement. It is human nature. Parent support/guidance during their child's high school years is the most important years. Stats show teens are at a very high risk for drugs, alcohol, pregnancy, violence, etc., while in high school. Parent TLC is big at this time.

Just Checking · Post by **Just Checking** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:42 pm

Cootslayer wrote:Am I the only one that sees the irony in this poorly written article?

Greg and his brother spend their spare time running around to Disrict 8 bantam games telling kids that their local HS is no good for the players long term development. Have to go to STA to be successful.

When Jr teams tell his athletes it is time to move on, then it is not an ok thing. LOL

I do not see the irony. explain it to me. Try to do it without the use of lies.
You have no knowledge of these coaches, or you would know that neither of the Vannellis go to games to recruit. I would guess they may show up at a Sibley game this year as have 15-20 students on the AA and A teams. But they do not go to games to recruit, if they have a player in the school or one who has said he is coming and would like to play they might show up, once. Heck they don't even pick up the phone to recruit. If they did they would have had a goalie come in last year or this year. Good goalies are bouncing all around in the southern metro and not a one to STA. They have had two transfers in 5 years Stang from Cretin 3 years ago, and Billy Jerry transferred last year from WI, played JV. Compare that to the number of transfers at other schools. I believe this is direct proof they do not recruit, to go along with Bauermans personal experience.

What do you got TruthSlayer? Anything other than lies?

Do you see the irony in the way I changed your name?

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