Duluth Marshall girls moving to varsity play next season

pepperpot · Post by **pepperpot** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:26 pm

I looked at their roster. They have 2 9th graders. The rest are 7th and 8th. No 10-12. Duluth is a co-op high school team. Marshall used to be one with Proctor and Hermantown. I bet most of those Marshall girls played youth hockey last year for Duluth and traded it in for some games against bad JV teams. That's why Duluth dosen't have a 14 team I'm guessing. I wonder how many 7th and 8th graders the coach of Duluth grabbed making the problem worse. Bad for development. Bad for Duluths youth feeder. Good for the parents ego. I totally agree with observer. Time for Never to add his nickels now. Wait for it

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:45 pm

pepperpot wrote:I looked at their roster. They have 2 9th graders. The rest are 7th and 8th. No 10-12. Duluth is a co-op high school team. Marshall used to be one with Proctor and Hermantown. I bet most of those Marshall girls played youth hockey last year for Duluth and traded it in for some games against bad JV teams. That's why Duluth dosen't have a 14 team I'm guessing. I wonder how many 7th and 8th graders the coach of Duluth grabbed making the problem worse. Bad for development. Bad for Duluths youth feeder. Good for the parents ego. I totally agree with observer. Time for Never to add his nickels now. Wait for it

I completely agree with both of you. But I think you're forgetting that Marshall is a private school. NEWS FLASH! Marshall doesn't care about the overall state of hockey in Duluth, nor should they. Marshall cares about Marshall. That's what Privates are. Duluth's issues with girls hockey have nothing to do with Marshall in my opinion.

pepperpot · Post by **pepperpot** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:22 pm

question frog. Lets pretend Duluth was a really good program with a history of wins and was a reasonable force in AA, like roseau. Do you really think that Marshall would be able to pull those 7th and 8th grade kids over to their JV? Don't you think they would stay with the youth program and line up to play on the high school team? And save 15 grand a year? Of course they would. That's why Duluth has everything to do with Marshall. Programs go south and kids leave. In the eyes of hockey parents, winning isn't everything, its the only thing.

The Bone · Post by **The Bone** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:29 pm

Duluth Northern Stars (9-12-3)
** This team is a cooperative sponsorship between:
Duluth Denfeld High School, Duluth East High School.

MSHSL Posted Roster Make-up:
Gr 12 -5
Gr 11 -10
Gr 10 - 2
Gr 9 - 6
Gr 8 - 5
Gr 7 - 0

I would like to think that any school, Private or Public, would have a vested interest in the health and vibrancy of a sport (offered by the school) in the community which it is located!

Froggy Richards · Post by **Froggy Richards** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:47 pm

pepperpot wrote:question frog. Lets pretend Duluth was a really good program with a history of wins and was a reasonable force in AA, like roseau. Do you really think that Marshall would be able to pull those 7th and 8th grade kids over to their JV? Don't you think they would stay with the youth program and line up to play on the high school team? And save 15 grand a year? Of course they would. That's why Duluth has everything to do with Marshall. Programs go south and kids leave. In the eyes of hockey parents, winning isn't everything, its the only thing.

In your hypothetical, I agree that they might not be able to pull them over to their JV. Those Marshall students might play U14 in Duluth through 9th grade. But once they get to 10th Grade, they would have no choice, they would have to play at Marshall. Would they instead stay in Duluth and skip the Marshall experience altogether, "line up to play on the High School team," like you said? No, they wouldn't. How do I know this? Because the situation you described is exactly what Duluth East has had the last 20 years on the Boy's side. (Really good program, history of wins, a force in AA). Guess what? They still lost kids to Marshall. Parents don't send their kids to Marshall just because they have a good hockey program. If they did, no boys hockey player from East would have ever attended there. They send them there because of the "perceived" better education and to get them away from the riff raff and the rest of us commoner's kids. It's mostly about status. A good hockey team is just a bonus.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:04 pm

observer · Post by **observer** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:40 pm

The mantra on the boys side is, unless you're top two lines and PP play bantam (60 games instead of 25). On a decent girls HS program the mantra should be the same. Top two lines as a 9th grader go for it. Otherwise U14. 7th and 8th grade? Rare to never.

Shuffling 7th, 8th and 9th grade girls isn't healthy or beneficial for the players, organization, team or parents. There's no quick fix. Recruit 6 year olds to a single youth association and it may be different for your 6 year old neighbor. This year, next, the year after? A selfish mistake.

Parents also need to resist the overtures from HS coaches. If they need help they'll push, that's their job. Your job is parent. Ban together and tell the HS coach we'll see you in 10th grade. Let your daughter enjoy her time on single Duluth strong U12 and U14 teams. Smiles all around instead of angst and disappointment. HS can wait.

pepperpot · Post by **pepperpot** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:32 am

My mistake, i was thinking12A. point is the same.

JohnnyBuck · Post by **JohnnyBuck** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:51 am

The original Marshall Co-op with Herm/Proctor was discontinued because of $. Marshall only had one high school player coming back and the administration did not think it was worth $30,000 to continue, so they ended it. once it was discontinued some younger parents said "wait a minute, we can make this work" and recruited 13 kids from outside the school to come and make up a Tier I 14U team. Smart for Marshall as they brought in 13 x $15,000 = $195,000 to the school. Problem was the immaturity and selfishness of a couple of the adults involved. Embarrassed the school and it ended.

This new team is a bit different in that it is a true high school team. Not the same promises as the 14U tier I experiment. IMO what will happen is they will get 6-8 Duluth kids, a few Superior kids, couple from the North shore, maybe 1-2 from Cloquet, 1-2 Moose Lake, etc. Marshall will be very competitive in a few years, drawing more local kids. Problem is it will KILL the local schools that are already struggling to field a team. It the long run Marshall will help a few and hurt many.

RailingWizardofOZ · Post by **RailingWizardofOZ** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:16 pm

observer wrote:
many of the metro as well as outstate girls varsity hockey teams have 7th and 8th graders on them.
Only if they have a youth and HS numbers problem. It's a bad sign. I've seen crushed U14A programs when the girls skate JV instead. An awful decision with 20 questionable games no playoffs and few tourneys that benefits no one. Play youth!

I'm suggesting until numbers are big enough at youth leave the co-op HS team together so all the girls will have a better experience, and more success, at 10, 12 and 14, JV (10th and 11th graders that likely were never on an A team) and HS. Build from the bottom up with all girl hockey players in Duluth working together. One organization and brand.

A split at the top will not go well as experienced in Duluth previously. You will suck up 12s and 14s which is bad for player development and often ends up not being a great experience for the teams. You want the best players at 12A getting 45 games against same age competition. And you need two additional 12B teams, 2 full teams at 14, to hope to fuel a single HS (grades 10-12) hockey organization with varsity and JV teams. I can't imagine this is a majority decision. It's a bad one.

This is great bar stool talk, or preaching to the choir at the political rally. Some of the comments are true, but this isn’t a one size fits all. If a program had the numbers to support all these teams youre suggesting, then we wouldn’t even have a need for this discussion. Yes, those are great ideas but just saying it doesn’t make it true and doesn’t make it happen.

To play a little devil’s advocate, or debate the other side, if youth programs would be more proactive to take care of these problems on a consistent basis, we wouldn’t be having this same discussion about HS programs “stealing” players from the youth and taking away their opportunity to field teams. If most JV teams are players that have never played A hockey, then how is that the problem of the HS? Wouldn’t that be the responsibility of the youth programs they came from? If the development at the youth is so much stronger, then why are there so many poor JV programs? Would one more year at the youth level playing U14 develop all those lower level players into stronger players to avoid all the “questionable games” at the JV levels? Is having a greater game: practice ratio at U14 going to develop the players better than the practice: game ration at HS? I am guessing that HS coaches would love if youth programs could accomplish your outline and theory at all the levels in the youth level.

Unfortunately most comments posted regarding youth vs HS always seem to come from a bad personal experience where peoples heels are now dug in and unwilling to listen to another point of view (as well as success stories on the other side). I’m not saying that leaving youth early to go to HS is a good or bad idea, as each has its own story. I am saying that we cannot just keep throwing out the model of U14 like there is a strong demand with numbers and it is the HS that is robbing this opportunity. Maybe that saying of “If you build it, they will come” can be said for all levels.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:03 pm

JohnnyBuck wrote:The original Marshall Co-op with Herm/Proctor was discontinued because of $. Marshall only had one high school player coming back and the administration did not think it was worth $30,000 to continue, so they ended it. once it was discontinued some younger parents said "wait a minute, we can make this work" and recruited 13 kids from outside the school to come and make up a Tier I 14U team. Smart for Marshall as they brought in 13 x $15,000 = $195,000 to the school. Problem was the immaturity and selfishness of a couple of the adults involved. Embarrassed the school and it ended.

This new team is a bit different in that it is a true high school team. Not the same promises as the 14U tier I experiment. IMO what will happen is they will get 6-8 Duluth kids, a few Superior kids, couple from the North shore, maybe 1-2 from Cloquet, 1-2 Moose Lake, etc. Marshall will be very competitive in a few years, drawing more local kids. Problem is it will KILL the local schools that are already struggling to field a team. It the long run Marshall will help a few and hurt many.

Johnny what about the team that played this year at jv? Are those 20 or so girls brand new transfers or were they already Marshall students? And the 12-16 you think are incoming from schools other than DM - well the numbers would force a jv AND varsity team then?

And I couldn't name names or tell you exactly how many, but the Christmas tourney roster I read definitely had names we recognized from 12uA state tourney the last few years.

JohnnyBuck · Post by **JohnnyBuck** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:02 pm

Not sure where all the kids came from? I know some were already at the school and I believe a few came from the Duluth Icebreakers. Maybe others that had/have kids on the Icebreakers could tell us where they came from.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:23 pm

JohnnyBuck · Post by **JohnnyBuck** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:34 am

Nice troll NTMH. Glad to see no one is going there. Plus who are you kidding? You know more about what is going on at Marshall then anyone on this thread. Why don't you enlighten us?

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:02 pm

panpan111 · Post by **panpan111** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:15 pm

NTMH...
Curiosity is getting the better of me. Don't you have kids at Marshall? A kid that was part of the program initial Tier 1 campaign?

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:47 pm

pm panpan

JohnnyBuck · Post by **JohnnyBuck** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:20 pm

Why pm NTMH? We are all curious to get your insight on the Duluth and Marshall teams. You obviously are in the know.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:43 pm

Don't feel left out Johnny, sent you one too.