I've been watching most of the games this year and it's time to voice my strong thoughts on how such a rich program at the youth level can be totally embarrassed at the high school level the past years. State tournamnent three times in 65 years. The last state tournament was a result of a goalie--Dingmann carrying the squad.
Common trait: Wayzata teams get worse as season goes on. Last year, Wayzata tied Edina in November and the lost to them 8-0 in February, same story with Tonka last year. This year, beat Hill 2-0 now lost to them 7-1 three weeks later.
How does this happen? O'Leary feels that it is necessary to rotate 11-12 forwards into a lineup. I'm not exaggerating by saying that over 15 line combinations at the forward position have been used since the Turkey Trot victory. The kids play with someone different each shift, yesterday I played close attention and actually counted 12 different forward line combinations. There were more but I got confused.
Note to O'leary: 1) Everyone except you know who the top six forwards are on Wayzata. You have two D1 commits at forward. Make a decision on your top two lines now so they can work with each other and play them! Last year even in February you were moving defenseman to forward and you didn't know who your lines were going into regions. 2) The remaining six kids that have been playing forward (3rd and 4th line), establish a third line from the six and maybe tinker a little, but don't have all 12 forwards being treated as equal in playing time. When did playing four lines and seven defensemen become common? Is this 5 year old mites?
Note to O'Leary, Zimmer and Freytag may have stayed for their senior years if they were getting more ice time and not being rotated with 11 other guys.
3) Same for Defense--seven different defensemen are still getting equal ice time. I chuckled as I was told by a parent a week ago that you moved your top All conference returning defense to forward so that you could create more offense. The last two games you have given up six an seven goals and scored one. Is this working? Also, I noticed that this solution to your scoring problem defensemen playing forward is playing with the third set of forwards and played maybe 2 shifts during the first period yesterday. I couldn't follow the rest because he played defense a few shifts in the second and then forward again in the third. This kid will turn out to be Sybil if he already isn't. O'leary, give your best players ice time (note--Zimmer and Freytag would have stayed), figure out your top two lines and top four defensemen and play them. I really think the issue is that you want to make everyone happy so that they line your pockets by signing up for your summer camps and training. How many kids each summer do you tell, you are doing great, you will play varsity, hence turning Wayzata into a socialist everyone plays equal and the King gets rich association.
To this point: Giles and other successful coaches commit to their top two lines early and live with it. It's called doing your homework before the season begins. He has the Copeland Line and the Dornbach line. When they lost to Wayzata did he scramble all of the lines. NO!
Wayzata beats Edina in November, the kid who scored two goals in that game found himself playing 4th line against Duluth, two games later. He wasn't told why he was demoted to 4th line. It just happened. All these kids have no idea who they are going to play with each game.
I could proivde numerous other reasons for the underperformance of the Trojans this year and last year. But I'm tired. I feel for the kids. I really do.
In summary, determine who your top two lines are and play them together and give them ice time. The third line will see ice time too but if you play your horses you won't lose 6-0 and 7-1. You are Wayzata and you have talent, but you need to allow them to display their talent. Play your top four defensemen and guess what your all conference defensemen isn't a forward. One of your two talented defensemen should be on the ice at all times during crunch time in a big game. They shouldn't be sitting on the bench with the third group of forwards.
Oh, if you want to know who your top two lines, sad to so say it's almost January and you still don't know. Let me provide a clue:
Duma, Senden, Greeniger. Patterson, Nelson, Ness.
Third Line--Batra, Stevens, Schmidt, Riley (not Sorenson)
Defense: Sorenson, Anderson-----with (Lindstrand, Carlson and Kazksoskis) go with five defensemen with Sorenson and Anderson logging massive minutes.
A lot more so say like Wayzata's offense is to get over the blue line and shoot from anywhere but I will stop for now. It's not that hard O'Leary, you have been blessed with being able to coach a lot of talented players.
PS You also have a good goalie, but you have played head games with him too and what has happened there. GB
Wayzata?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Re: Wayzata?
I wouldn't necessarily use Giles as the Gold standard here. He did, in fact, scramble the lines inexplicably last year when Malmquist went down. Instead of just a) double shifting the 2nd line center (Masterman), or b)plugging in the 4th line center, which wasn't an option because he hadn't played in weeks, he chose to shuffle all three lines beyond recognition and they looked completely lost without their leader vs. DE. Granted, Malmquist was a big loss, but depth should have been able to win out.GoldenBear wrote: To this point: Giles and other successful coaches commit to their top two lines early and live with it. It's called doing your homework before the season begins. He has the Copeland Line and the Dornbach line. When they lost to Wayzata did he scramble all of the lines. NO!
Wow GB, a couple extra cups of coffee? Thought after a strong start that Wayzata might have changed course for the better this year. Anyway, can't begin to know all the level of detail you are describing, but for sure agree there is an ongoing issue of why top-tier youth hockey pool with regular D1 commits and always good goalies in the pipeline is not enough to produce more consistently top 5 high school teams.
I have said this for several years....there is an embarassment of riches over there...
GB and I have talked in depth on this board regarding this. Nail was hit on the head. Nowhere else to look but at coaching. Not being able to get it done with those numbers, the talent they have, and then all top end guys taking off points fingers in one direction only.
Time for a change in the "wayzata way"
GB and I have talked in depth on this board regarding this. Nail was hit on the head. Nowhere else to look but at coaching. Not being able to get it done with those numbers, the talent they have, and then all top end guys taking off points fingers in one direction only.
Time for a change in the "wayzata way"
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Lazy Scout
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I couldn't agree more. The most undisciplined team I've seen. They take way too many penalties at the worst possible times. Their defense pinch way too much leaving them vulnerable to 2 on 1's. They look like they don't care and their goalie is hung out to dry often. It all comes down to coaching. O'Leary has gotta go.
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classahockeyrocks
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Like I said before. Most under performing team in the state.
Coach thinks he knows everything and it's his way or the highway.
Or should I say it is the "Wayzata Way" or the highway?
He plays head games with the players and treats them very poorly.
Wayzata should have hired Lance Pitlick instead of this guy when they had the chance.
They should get rid of O'Leary and hire Pitlick and Parrish from Orono.
Coach thinks he knows everything and it's his way or the highway.
Or should I say it is the "Wayzata Way" or the highway?
He plays head games with the players and treats them very poorly.
Wayzata should have hired Lance Pitlick instead of this guy when they had the chance.
They should get rid of O'Leary and hire Pitlick and Parrish from Orono.
Spot on. Never understood why coaches play head games with HS kids. So stupid. Pitlick would have been great. Nice to see Parrish having success with Orono thus far and very happy to see how well Rem is playing in Muskegon. Kid has fantastic skills.classahockeyrocks wrote:Like I said before. Most under performing team in the state.
Coach thinks he knows everything and it's his way or the highway.
Or should I say it is the "Wayzata Way" or the highway?
He plays head games with the players and treats them very poorly.
Wayzata should have hired Lance Pitlick instead of this guy when they had the chance.
They should get rid of O'Leary and hire Pitlick and Parrish from Orono.
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MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
Article on Pitlick and his hockey business.classahockeyrocks wrote:Wayzata should have hired Lance Pitlick instead of this guy when they had the chance.
Former NHL Player and His Family Make Hockey a Priority
http://plymouthmag.com/former-nhl-pl...ockey-priority
link is blank....MNHockeyFan wrote:Article on Pitlick and his hockey business.classahockeyrocks wrote:Wayzata should have hired Lance Pitlick instead of this guy when they had the chance.
Former NHL Player and His Family Make Hockey a Priority
http://plymouthmag.com/former-nhl-pl...ockey-priority
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MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
Sorry, try this:Sats81 wrote:link is blank....
http://plymouthmag.com/former-nhl-playe ... y-priority
awesome! thxMNHockeyFan wrote:Sorry, try this:Sats81 wrote:link is blank....
http://plymouthmag.com/former-nhl-playe ... y-priority
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TooManyEagles
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As a Wayzata grad, this thread amuses me, because I was a student for much of the Carl Davis vitriol on here. Nobody will be happy until the team wins a State title. Wayzata has been knocked out in sections by numerous state championship teams. Having the third best team in the state and losing to the best in the 6AA final or State Semifinal doesn't make a coach a failure to me.
Besides, the Wayzata hockey system already has produced some state titles. They just keep them at Breck and Benilde.
Besides, the Wayzata hockey system already has produced some state titles. They just keep them at Breck and Benilde.
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classahockeyrocks
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TooManyEagles
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They have made it 3 times in history... Not really what you would call successful for a program like thatTooManyEagles wrote:Huh, I'll have to check, but I remember pretty vividly watching 6 Wayzata state tournament games in person at the X.classahockeyrocks wrote:It is about time they make it to state with all that talent!
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TooManyEagles
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For a less snarky and more substantive reply, there are some structural disadvantages Wayzata is going through right now that are hurting the program. Some of these are permanent, some are temporary.
First is open enrollment. Wayzata is at capacity all the way through K-12, and has closed open enrollment. This means if you do not live within the school district's borders, you cannot attend Wayzata. This will change as the building expansion is completed. Wayzata has a relatively large area around it to draw from that is not part of the district, and it has done so in the past before the schools hit capacity.
Second is the fact that you have a wealthy district with numerous private school opportunities nearby. Breck is an especially large recipient of kids from Plymouth and Wayzata, and they even do busing out into the Wayzata district. Benilde is a more common choice for parents in the southern part of the district, or people specifically interested in a Catholic education. I have no idea how Holy Family has impacted Wayzata, though I suspect it would be more minimal because driving all the way around the lake to Victoria is a big pain for most. There are also smaller private schools within the Wayzata district, but it's unlikely that Providence Academy is having much of an impact on Wayzata sports. I understand that other schools have issues with private schools too, but the problem of having very wealthy hockey parents and multiple consistently excellent private school programs close by is more unique to Wayzata.
Third is related to the above, which is that Wayzata is not a storied hockey power like Edina, which can help keep players from leaving for privates or junior hockey. It is quite frankly a football school first. Even basketball is usually a bigger sport than hockey at the school. This may be a mark against the Wayzata school and community at large, but I fail to see how O'Leary is responsible for the culture dating back generations. This also goes to the "They haven't been to the tournament enough in the past, they must be a bad program" argument. We didn't rack up titles in the 70's, when the size of the school was much smaller, which now hurts our hockey tradition.
Finally is the fact that the western suburbs are a traditional powerhouse for high school hockey, and only one team can make it out of Wayzata's section each year. I don't think it was Davis's or O'Leary's fault that 3 of the last 7 Mr. Hockey winners came from our section. It's unreasonable to expect teams to make it to state every year or every other year when there are 4 legitimate programs vying for the section title each year. I don't see how Minnetonka's D1 juggernaut in 2010 was Wayzata's fault either. Or Benilde/Tonka's teams in 2012. Losing to Benilde in Semis and not making it 2 years ago as the #1 seed is the biggest mark against O'Leary. Wayzata has consistently been in the top tier of an incredibly difficult section, and is never outclassed in sections. The new sections may help by replacing EP, HF, and Tonka with Edina and Cretin. We'll see.
First is open enrollment. Wayzata is at capacity all the way through K-12, and has closed open enrollment. This means if you do not live within the school district's borders, you cannot attend Wayzata. This will change as the building expansion is completed. Wayzata has a relatively large area around it to draw from that is not part of the district, and it has done so in the past before the schools hit capacity.
Second is the fact that you have a wealthy district with numerous private school opportunities nearby. Breck is an especially large recipient of kids from Plymouth and Wayzata, and they even do busing out into the Wayzata district. Benilde is a more common choice for parents in the southern part of the district, or people specifically interested in a Catholic education. I have no idea how Holy Family has impacted Wayzata, though I suspect it would be more minimal because driving all the way around the lake to Victoria is a big pain for most. There are also smaller private schools within the Wayzata district, but it's unlikely that Providence Academy is having much of an impact on Wayzata sports. I understand that other schools have issues with private schools too, but the problem of having very wealthy hockey parents and multiple consistently excellent private school programs close by is more unique to Wayzata.
Third is related to the above, which is that Wayzata is not a storied hockey power like Edina, which can help keep players from leaving for privates or junior hockey. It is quite frankly a football school first. Even basketball is usually a bigger sport than hockey at the school. This may be a mark against the Wayzata school and community at large, but I fail to see how O'Leary is responsible for the culture dating back generations. This also goes to the "They haven't been to the tournament enough in the past, they must be a bad program" argument. We didn't rack up titles in the 70's, when the size of the school was much smaller, which now hurts our hockey tradition.
Finally is the fact that the western suburbs are a traditional powerhouse for high school hockey, and only one team can make it out of Wayzata's section each year. I don't think it was Davis's or O'Leary's fault that 3 of the last 7 Mr. Hockey winners came from our section. It's unreasonable to expect teams to make it to state every year or every other year when there are 4 legitimate programs vying for the section title each year. I don't see how Minnetonka's D1 juggernaut in 2010 was Wayzata's fault either. Or Benilde/Tonka's teams in 2012. Losing to Benilde in Semis and not making it 2 years ago as the #1 seed is the biggest mark against O'Leary. Wayzata has consistently been in the top tier of an incredibly difficult section, and is never outclassed in sections. The new sections may help by replacing EP, HF, and Tonka with Edina and Cretin. We'll see.
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inthetwine
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Wouldn't say "Wayzata" as a whole... because the Bantams seem to be maximizing the talent pretty well over the past several seasons ... Just doesn't look like its equating at next level.minnscout wrote:Bottom line, Wayzata does poor job developing their talent and the smart ones leave for much better programs.
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East Side Pioneer Guy
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Nuts&Bolts
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inthetwine
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MrBoDangles
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I'm sure you'd find that many kids intended to attend private school all along. Not all kids in the youth program attend Wayzata schools. It's not always about coaching, although that's appears to be the easy answer.minnscout wrote:Bottom line, Wayzata does poor job developing their talent and the smart ones leave for much better programs.