Refs

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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QuackerTracker
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:01 am

Post by QuackerTracker » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:19 am

renegade 68 wrote:
CommunityBased wrote:To those who feel the refs are so terrible there is a simple solution...become a ref yourself. You clearly have the ability to make perfect calls every time. My guess is you will find out A. it's a really hard job and B. fans and coaches are out of their minds...(and see through biased eyes).

Why don't we have as many good refs as we all want? Because the job sucks. People screaming at you and who often have no idea what they are talking about. I wouldn't do it. I won't let my kids do it. My daughter asked me about becoming a ref...I said no way...I have seen to many refs including kids in training berated by some way to intense adults(?).

In all seriousness if we want good refs we need to make the job desirable not miserable....and that means dramatically increasing pay to make the abuse worthwhile or get parents/coaches under control. I don't see either happening any time soon.

In a state where we have 10's of thousands of former hockey players why don't we have more ref-fing?

What would constitute a decent wage? I have been writing checks to officials for scrimmages, etc for the last 6 years and IMO, they are compensated more than fairly. What other part time job would you be able to make $40 - $50 dollars an hour?
As the parent of 2 kids that are involved in different sports over the course of the year I feel the single biggest problem with youth officials is that too many of them view themselves as more important than the kids they are there to ref. Just this weekend @ regions we were on the short end of 4 consecutive penalties (I had no issue with any of them). Shortly thereafter, there was a scrum in front opponents net, and we see one our players get hit from behind, smack her head against the goal, dislodge said net and layed out on ice for 2-3 minutes, 3 refs present and no call whatsoever. Crowd is going nuts, and what is the refs reaction? He points to the crowd and asks, "do any of you want to go home for the weekend?"
Referees are paid fairly for their service, and need to be held accountable for their performance at all levels.
Can you please tell me where I can go ref for $40-50 an hour?

My math goes like this:

The ref of a Bant AA game gets about $65
He left his house an hour before the game (if the weather is good)
Burns 3-5 gallons of gas fighting traffic (well say -$10 for easy math)
Game last an hour and a half if there is no OT
An hour later the ref gets home
15-30 minutes completing paper work at home if there are any game misconducts, CFBs or head contact.

So $55 after expenses divided by 3.5 hours is $18.33 an hour, only slightly more than my last part time job at Target which I was making $15 an hour at when I left. Then add in cost of equipment, registration fees and abuse on the vehicle to the cost. Don't forget how everyone thinks hockey is more important than school so we use PTO to make sure that kids can play in tournaments all year long. Time spent away from family, missed birthdays and holiday weekends.

Now I love officiating but before you say something about officials earning $40-50 an hour you should probably educate yourself a little better on the facts. If officials where making that kind of money there would be a line out the door to for officials.

57special
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:23 pm

Post by 57special » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:43 am

Squirt C game.
Slow clear rolls down into opponents zone. Goalie comes way out and pounces on puck about halfway between net and blue line, then decides to cover it up when he sees a mix of his and other team's players bearing down on him, though I'd say they are still a good 20 feet away at this point.

Ref calls delay of game. Is this a judgement call, or is there a specific criteria that demands the call be made? I thought that if the goalie tried to clear the puck he would have put himself at risk of a giveaway, leaving a wide open net. We are talking about very young, inexperienced goalies at this point, who can barely handle their sticks in most cases.

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:01 am

57special wrote:Squirt C game.
Slow clear rolls down into opponents zone. Goalie comes way out and pounces on puck about halfway between net and blue line, then decides to cover it up when he sees a mix of his and other team's players bearing down on him, though I'd say they are still a good 20 feet away at this point.

Ref calls delay of game. Is this a judgement call, or is there a specific criteria that demands the call be made? I thought that if the goalie tried to clear the puck he would have put himself at risk of a giveaway, leaving a wide open net. We are talking about very young, inexperienced goalies at this point, who can barely handle their sticks in most cases.
Squirt C. No call. Blow whistle. Drop puck. Continue game.

QuackerTracker
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:01 am

Post by QuackerTracker » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:57 am

57special wrote:Squirt C game.
Slow clear rolls down into opponents zone. Goalie comes way out and pounces on puck about halfway between net and blue line, then decides to cover it up when he sees a mix of his and other team's players bearing down on him, though I'd say they are still a good 20 feet away at this point.

Ref calls delay of game. Is this a judgement call, or is there a specific criteria that demands the call be made? I thought that if the goalie tried to clear the puck he would have put himself at risk of a giveaway, leaving a wide open net. We are talking about very young, inexperienced goalies at this point, who can barely handle their sticks in most cases.
This is a black and white call made correctly and the level of play should not change the way this call is made:

c) A minor penalty for delay of game shall be assessed to a
goalkeeper who falls on or gathers the puck into his body and
causes a stoppage of play when:
(1) The puck is behind the goal line and his body is entirely
outside of the goal crease.
Playing Rules
2013-17 Official Rules of Ice Hockey 67
Falling on Puck
Rulebook-Casebook 1317_Rulebook 7/2/13 4:23 PM Page 67(2) He fails to play the puck with his stick when provided
the opportunity to do so prior to being pressured by an
attacking player.
(3) The puck is outside the boundaries of the ”goalkeeper’s
privileged” area.

(4) He holds or places the puck against any part of the goal
frame or boards or intentionally drops the puck on the
back of the netting.


Goalkeeper’s Privileged Area
The area outlined by connecting the end zone face-off spots with
an imaginary line and imaginary lines perpendicular to the end
boards (see rink diagram).

MWS coach
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 am

Post by MWS coach » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:57 am

SCBlueLiner wrote:
57special wrote:Squirt C game.
Slow clear rolls down into opponents zone. Goalie comes way out and pounces on puck about halfway between net and blue line, then decides to cover it up when he sees a mix of his and other team's players bearing down on him, though I'd say they are still a good 20 feet away at this point.

Ref calls delay of game. Is this a judgement call, or is there a specific criteria that demands the call be made? I thought that if the goalie tried to clear the puck he would have put himself at risk of a giveaway, leaving a wide open net. We are talking about very young, inexperienced goalies at this point, who can barely handle their sticks in most cases.
Squirt C. No call. Blow whistle. Drop puck. Continue game.
I believe the rule has something to do with opposing players being inside the "box". I agree, should be no call, if anything, give the 9 year old a break and just expalain the rule to him. Geez!

scoreandscoreoften
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:28 pm

Post by scoreandscoreoften » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:46 am

QuackerTracker wrote:
renegade 68 wrote:
CommunityBased wrote:To those who feel the refs are so terrible there is a simple solution...become a ref yourself. You clearly have the ability to make perfect calls every time. My guess is you will find out A. it's a really hard job and B. fans and coaches are out of their minds...(and see through biased eyes).

Why don't we have as many good refs as we all want? Because the job sucks. People screaming at you and who often have no idea what they are talking about. I wouldn't do it. I won't let my kids do it. My daughter asked me about becoming a ref...I said no way...I have seen to many refs including kids in training berated by some way to intense adults(?).

In all seriousness if we want good refs we need to make the job desirable not miserable....and that means dramatically increasing pay to make the abuse worthwhile or get parents/coaches under control. I don't see either happening any time soon.

In a state where we have 10's of thousands of former hockey players why don't we have more ref-fing?

What would constitute a decent wage? I have been writing checks to officials for scrimmages, etc for the last 6 years and IMO, they are compensated more than fairly. What other part time job would you be able to make $40 - $50 dollars an hour?
As the parent of 2 kids that are involved in different sports over the course of the year I feel the single biggest problem with youth officials is that too many of them view themselves as more important than the kids they are there to ref. Just this weekend @ regions we were on the short end of 4 consecutive penalties (I had no issue with any of them). Shortly thereafter, there was a scrum in front opponents net, and we see one our players get hit from behind, smack her head against the goal, dislodge said net and layed out on ice for 2-3 minutes, 3 refs present and no call whatsoever. Crowd is going nuts, and what is the refs reaction? He points to the crowd and asks, "do any of you want to go home for the weekend?"
Referees are paid fairly for their service, and need to be held accountable for their performance at all levels.
Can you please tell me where I can go ref for $40-50 an hour?

My math goes like this:

The ref of a Bant AA game gets about $65
He left his house an hour before the game (if the weather is good)
Burns 3-5 gallons of gas fighting traffic (well say -$10 for easy math)
Game last an hour and a half if there is no OT
An hour later the ref gets home
15-30 minutes completing paper work at home if there are any game misconducts, CFBs or head contact.

So $55 after expenses divided by 3.5 hours is $18.33 an hour, only slightly more than my last part time job at Target which I was making $15 an hour at when I left. Then add in cost of equipment, registration fees and abuse on the vehicle to the cost. Don't forget how everyone thinks hockey is more important than school so we use PTO to make sure that kids can play in tournaments all year long. Time spent away from family, missed birthdays and holiday weekends.

Now I love officiating but before you say something about officials earning $40-50 an hour you should probably educate yourself a little better on the facts. If officials where making that kind of money there would be a line out the door to for officials.
This is really funny. In your scenario, you forgot to take out Fed taxes, state taxes, Fica, medicare, etc. They don't get a check per say but, they pay these when they file their taxes. That would bring their $18 an hr wage even lower.

You could say this about anyone who has a job. If I make $30 per hr at my job, none of the time it takes to get up in the morning, shower, shave, eat breakfast, drive in from my home, drive home, wear and tear on my car, etc. affects my wages. I still make $30 per hr. It all affects my bottom line, as does a refs job, and anyone else who works, even those making minimum wage. The facts, a ref makes $65 for an hr and a half game.

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:24 pm

MWS coach wrote:
SCBlueLiner wrote:
57special wrote:Squirt C game.
Slow clear rolls down into opponents zone. Goalie comes way out and pounces on puck about halfway between net and blue line, then decides to cover it up when he sees a mix of his and other team's players bearing down on him, though I'd say they are still a good 20 feet away at this point.

Ref calls delay of game. Is this a judgement call, or is there a specific criteria that demands the call be made? I thought that if the goalie tried to clear the puck he would have put himself at risk of a giveaway, leaving a wide open net. We are talking about very young, inexperienced goalies at this point, who can barely handle their sticks in most cases.
Squirt C. No call. Blow whistle. Drop puck. Continue game.
I believe the rule has something to do with opposing players being inside the "box". I agree, should be no call, if anything, give the 9 year old a break and just expalain the rule to him. Geez!
That's where I was coming from. It's Squirt C. Explain the rule to the kid and move on.

Goose21
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:31 am

Post by Goose21 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:49 pm

Squirt B

A bad pass out to a defenseman in the offensive zone sends the puck down to the other end of the rink. An opposing forward gets a good jump on the play and races down after the puck which is begining to die near the face off circle to the right of the goalie.

The goalie decides to try to make a play and leaves the goal, but is beaten to the puck by the opposing forward. The left handed forward pulls the puck from his forehand side to his backhand side and cuts past the goalie toward the open goal. The goalie stops, lunges sideways, and back at the forward with his stick, catching him in the skates. As the forward goes down he begins losing control of the puck, but is able to get off a backhand shot that barely misses the far post. The whislte blows with no other players near the play.

A 2 minute tripping penalty is assessed to the goalie and served by a skater.

57special
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:23 pm

Post by 57special » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:59 pm

QuackerTracker,

C(3) seems to be the exact situation. Seems like the ref was right, though the call felt wrong at the time. Not my team, btw.

renegade 68
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:56 pm

Post by renegade 68 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:28 pm

scoreandscoreoften wrote:
QuackerTracker wrote:
renegade 68 wrote:
CommunityBased wrote:To those who feel the refs are so terrible there is a simple solution...become a ref yourself. You clearly have the ability to make perfect calls every time. My guess is you will find out A. it's a really hard job and B. fans and coaches are out of their minds...(and see through biased eyes).

Why don't we have as many good refs as we all want? Because the job sucks. People screaming at you and who often have no idea what they are talking about. I wouldn't do it. I won't let my kids do it. My daughter asked me about becoming a ref...I said no way...I have seen to many refs including kids in training berated by some way to intense adults(?).

In all seriousness if we want good refs we need to make the job desirable not miserable....and that means dramatically increasing pay to make the abuse worthwhile or get parents/coaches under control. I don't see either happening any time soon.

In a state where we have 10's of thousands of former hockey players why don't we have more ref-fing?

What would constitute a decent wage? I have been writing checks to officials for scrimmages, etc for the last 6 years and IMO, they are compensated more than fairly. What other part time job would you be able to make $40 - $50 dollars an hour?
As the parent of 2 kids that are involved in different sports over the course of the year I feel the single biggest problem with youth officials is that too many of them view themselves as more important than the kids they are there to ref. Just this weekend @ regions we were on the short end of 4 consecutive penalties (I had no issue with any of them). Shortly thereafter, there was a scrum in front opponents net, and we see one our players get hit from behind, smack her head against the goal, dislodge said net and layed out on ice for 2-3 minutes, 3 refs present and no call whatsoever. Crowd is going nuts, and what is the refs reaction? He points to the crowd and asks, "do any of you want to go home for the weekend?"
Referees are paid fairly for their service, and need to be held accountable for their performance at all levels.
Can you please tell me where I can go ref for $40-50 an hour?

My math goes like this:

The ref of a Bant AA game gets about $65
He left his house an hour before the game (if the weather is good)
Burns 3-5 gallons of gas fighting traffic (well say -$10 for easy math)
Game last an hour and a half if there is no OT
An hour later the ref gets home
15-30 minutes completing paper work at home if there are any game misconducts, CFBs or head contact.

So $55 after expenses divided by 3.5 hours is $18.33 an hour, only slightly more than my last part time job at Target which I was making $15 an hour at when I left. Then add in cost of equipment, registration fees and abuse on the vehicle to the cost. Don't forget how everyone thinks hockey is more important than school so we use PTO to make sure that kids can play in tournaments all year long. Time spent away from family, missed birthdays and holiday weekends.

Now I love officiating but before you say something about officials earning $40-50 an hour you should probably educate yourself a little better on the facts. If officials where making that kind of money there would be a line out the door to for officials.
This is really funny. In your scenario, you forgot to take out Fed taxes, state taxes, Fica, medicare, etc. They don't get a check per say but, they pay these when they file their taxes. That would bring their $18 an hr wage even lower.

You could say this about anyone who has a job. If I make $30 per hr at my job, none of the time it takes to get up in the morning, shower, shave, eat breakfast, drive in from my home, drive home, wear and tear on my car, etc. affects my wages. I still make $30 per hr. It all affects my bottom line, as does a refs job, and anyone else who works, even those making minimum wage. The facts, a ref makes $65 for an hr and a half game.
Score, you beat me too it. If we all subtracted the costs associated with getting to work, and applied that to our wage/salary, there would be a revolving door outside the human resource department. I am sure it is not a perfect part time job, but the fact remains that the referees are compensated fairly.

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:02 pm

Goose21 wrote:Squirt B

A bad pass out to a defenseman in the offensive zone sends the puck down to the other end of the rink. An opposing forward gets a good jump on the play and races down after the puck which is begining to die near the face off circle to the right of the goalie.

The goalie decides to try to make a play and leaves the goal, but is beaten to the puck by the opposing forward. The left handed forward pulls the puck from his forehand side to his backhand side and cuts past the goalie toward the open goal. The goalie stops, lunges sideways, and back at the forward with his stick, catching him in the skates. As the forward goes down he begins losing control of the puck, but is able to get off a backhand shot that barely misses the far post. The whislte blows with no other players near the play.

A 2 minute tripping penalty is assessed to the goalie and served by a skater.
Unimpeded to an empty net. Goal should be awarded.

barry_mcconnell
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:43 pm

Post by barry_mcconnell » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:00 am

Clearing pass is tipped and headed towards the player bench area. Puck hits ref in helmet and stays in play. No injury.

Other ref blows whistle and face off outside zone.

Ref22
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Ref22 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:24 am

barry_mcconnell wrote:Clearing pass is tipped and headed towards the player bench area. Puck hits ref in helmet and stays in play. No injury.

Other ref blows whistle and face off outside zone.
He must have thought it hit someone on the bench instead of the ref. The location of the face-off is correct assuming the puck was tipped by an attacking player.

Ref22
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Ref22 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:45 pm

Thought I'd bump this thread. Interesting situations this year? How's the season going?

MN_Bowhunter
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:08 am

Post by MN_Bowhunter » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:25 pm

Back a million years ago when I played hockey, if you charged the net and made contact with a goalie after the puck was covered (whistle or no) one of two (or both) things would happen. 1, you would get your head knocked off by the other team. 2, you would get 2 minutes in the box.

Today, same scenario. 1, no call, pick the puck up and have a faceoff. 2, defensive player gets a penalty and offensive player who initiated contact by driving the net when the puck was obviously covered gets no penalty, or a warning.

How is this helping curb the dangerous behavior? We are rewarding the team who is breaking the rules and punishing the team who is trying to protect their goalie. It's been a while since I held a rulebook in my hand but the last time I looked goalie contact after the puck is covered is a 2 minute penalty regardless of whether or not the whistle has blown.

What has changed in the last 20-30 years? I'm specifically talking about girls HS hockey because I'm sure the boys do a good job of self policing this issue.

ShakestheClown
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:11 pm

Post by ShakestheClown » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:19 am

I can only speak for my daughter's games, but I don't see the defensemen getting called for protecting their goalie too often. She doesn't let people touch her goalie without consequences, and has only been called on it a few times over the years.

Nevertoomuchhockey
Posts: 1138
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:59 pm

Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:45 am

ShakestheClown wrote:I can only speak for my daughter's games, but I don't see the defensemen getting called for protecting their goalie too often. She doesn't let people touch her goalie without consequences, and has only been called on it a few times over the years.
Maybe you already covered this, but what are the rules/penalties around the goalie kicking the net off? I know it happens, but when it's getting whistled more often than not every time the goalie is under pressure, it gets ridiculous. I know we could all name a few teams and coaches who use and teach this "strategy." What does the ref say?
Thanks.

ShakestheClown
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:11 pm

Post by ShakestheClown » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:52 am

As far as I know it's a delay of game penalty. Sometimes the ref will give the goalie a warning before calling a penalty.

InigoMontoya
Posts: 1716
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by InigoMontoya » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:46 am

Is shooting after the whistle a penalty in youth hockey?

In youth hockey, what is the rule regarding icing and the puck traveling through the crease?

Ref22
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:30 am

Post by Ref22 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:15 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Is shooting after the whistle a penalty in youth hockey?

In youth hockey, what is the rule regarding icing and the puck traveling through the crease?
Yes, it is. Varies from ref to ref how much leeway they give.

That is icing.

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