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2017 HP thread...
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zambonidriver



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hansonbrother wrote:
itsfoilcoach wrote:
AAA Dad wrote:
MN_Bowhunter wrote:
HP...The who's who of who paid Winny.


Completely jealous ignorant ridiculous statement IMO.. Give me a list of all the Studs that were overlooked and not playing in this tournament??

Can't wait to get your intel!



Somewhere in the middle of this discussion is the truth. I think Bow hunter here has a valid point. AAA, well I'm not too sure. AAA, not that your forum name means anything by the way, but your attitude says enough. You have limited spots, and a lot of talent out there, and contrary to the Winny gold standard you believe in, there are a lot of kids who donít go this route still. She does have her favorites. I'm sure it wouldn't be good for business if she cuts girls from her own program. I mean all that stellar Winny time (when she' shows up) and being cut from the HP program wouldn't be good advertisement for her. A little naÔve if you think it doesn't play into it at all. Mr. HansonWinnyBrother has spent a few dollars on her program I think...though you can't tell by his biased comments. It also sounds like HB/AAA have drank few gallons of the Winny Kool-Aid...just saying. Fair and balanced isn't in your thought process when monetary investment plays in. I'm wondering if HB and AAA can hold it together when Mrs. Hockey Jesus walks into the room. Your kids still have great skill; have excellent grades, to have a shot at a D1 or D3 school. Doesn't Matter what Winny Jesus says. If youíre good enough you'll get noticed with, or without Winny. But someone has to make the money off your daughter; it might as well be yours. Iíll give her this; she does have some good skills, and a good network to work with. But there are many avenues for this type of communication, not just Winnyís. By the way, Iím an insider on her program as well. But I donít have the Ďhaloí affect when she walks in the room either.


You'd think that with a name like yours and a name like mine, coming from the same movie, we might be on the same page...Not so much.
Obviously we may need to find a common ground here...Would you agree that it would help a girl to get noticed by a D1 school if she were competing in an atmosphere where D1 coaches come to watch several girls of like skills compete against each other? Would you agree if you were a coach traveling to watch kids play, you'd probably choose a venue where you could shoot fish in a barrel versus only see one or two kids that might be on your radar?
I've met too many dads like yourself who hate Winny and feel they can get better bang for their buck somewhere else. Kudos to you. I'm not trying to spend your money or talk you into Winny's program. Only you know what's best for your kid. You're right, its not for everyone, and there are a few kids that get seen without her help. But what I've found is that colleges don't fish the high school games as much as they used to. They would rather fish venues where they will see top kids playing against top kids, so they get a much better read on a how a kid will compete against better competition. Not a top Junior forward walking an average Freshman D in a high school game...which is typical.
I've also run into the "do it yourself dad's" that tell me they are running their own summer camp, and they're putting a tournament team together that will kill any Winny team... And they are going to compete in tournaments that draw more college scouts than any venue that Winny puts together.... only to find out one of the big tournaments was in May, when colleges aren't allowed to travel or scout players.
Say what you want to say, and feel what you want to feel about Winny...fact is, she gives D1 schools more access to these girls than any other venue in Minnesota...all you need to do is come visit any one of her tournaments and you will see schools stacked up like cord wood.
Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
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itsfoilcoach



Joined: 24 Oct 2014
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zambonidriver wrote:
Hansonbrother wrote:
itsfoilcoach wrote:
AAA Dad wrote:
MN_Bowhunter wrote:
HP...The who's who of who paid Winny.


Completely jealous ignorant ridiculous statement IMO.. Give me a list of all the Studs that were overlooked and not playing in this tournament??

Can't wait to get your intel!



Somewhere in the middle of this discussion is the truth. I think Bow hunter here has a valid point. AAA, well I'm not too sure. AAA, not that your forum name means anything by the way, but your attitude says enough. You have limited spots, and a lot of talent out there, and contrary to the Winny gold standard you believe in, there are a lot of kids who donít go this route still. She does have her favorites. I'm sure it wouldn't be good for business if she cuts girls from her own program. I mean all that stellar Winny time (when she' shows up) and being cut from the HP program wouldn't be good advertisement for her. A little naÔve if you think it doesn't play into it at all. Mr. HansonWinnyBrother has spent a few dollars on her program I think...though you can't tell by his biased comments. It also sounds like HB/AAA have drank few gallons of the Winny Kool-Aid...just saying. Fair and balanced isn't in your thought process when monetary investment plays in. I'm wondering if HB and AAA can hold it together when Mrs. Hockey Jesus walks into the room. Your kids still have great skill; have excellent grades, to have a shot at a D1 or D3 school. Doesn't Matter what Winny Jesus says. If youíre good enough you'll get noticed with, or without Winny. But someone has to make the money off your daughter; it might as well be yours. Iíll give her this; she does have some good skills, and a good network to work with. But there are many avenues for this type of communication, not just Winnyís. By the way, Iím an insider on her program as well. But I donít have the Ďhaloí affect when she walks in the room either.


You'd think that with a name like yours and a name like mine, coming from the same movie, we might be on the same page...Not so much.
Obviously we may need to find a common ground here...Would you agree that it would help a girl to get noticed by a D1 school if she were competing in an atmosphere where D1 coaches come to watch several girls of like skills compete against each other? Would you agree if you were a coach traveling to watch kids play, you'd probably choose a venue where you could shoot fish in a barrel versus only see one or two kids that might be on your radar?
I've met too many dads like yourself who hate Winny and feel they can get better bang for their buck somewhere else. Kudos to you. I'm not trying to spend your money or talk you into Winny's program. Only you know what's best for your kid. You're right, its not for everyone, and there are a few kids that get seen without her help. But what I've found is that colleges don't fish the high school games as much as they used to. They would rather fish venues where they will see top kids playing against top kids, so they get a much better read on a how a kid will compete against better competition. Not a top Junior forward walking an average Freshman D in a high school game...which is typical.
I've also run into the "do it yourself dad's" that tell me they are running their own summer camp, and they're putting a tournament team together that will kill any Winny team... And they are going to compete in tournaments that draw more college scouts than any venue that Winny puts together.... only to find out one of the big tournaments was in May, when colleges aren't allowed to travel or scout players.
Say what you want to say, and feel what you want to feel about Winny...fact is, she gives D1 schools more access to these girls than any other venue in Minnesota...all you need to do is come visit any one of her tournaments and you will see schools stacked up like cord wood.
Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause

Well we do agree on a good movie when we see one. I don't doubt she has had many positive influences on girls hockey, and has a good amount of influence on college hockey careers as well. That's why we went to her over the years. Nothing against that part of this topic. But lets call a spade a spade here. She engaged in these outside programs to profit from them as well. I also sometimes see personal choices made based on a personality contest, and loyalty (money spent). That trickles down into these HP/Elite programs and others. Its good to have other shows in town like FHIT/MEGA to name one is a great alterative. I have been to those tournaments by the way; and I have traveled with her out east as well. Good experience. But never put all your eggs in one basket. She is not the end of all means by any stretch of the imagination people. We are lucky to live in a state that has many options for training, and many high-end coaches to mentor these girls. She just doesn't go outside her inner circle much is the problem. She uses other programs to feed her business. That limits the talent pool to the Os circle/HP program., and there in-lies the problem. She limits her exposer to a certain group and that's it. Quick and easy talent pool assembled for her to choose from. So is it about the girls, or is also a little about putting a good product for her business on the ice at the same time, and at the same time ignoring those talented girls outside her HP/Os circle. That's the sad part here, and where Bowhunter has a point.
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Lace'emUp



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I'm getting a bit off topic here, but some D1 talk has trickled into the conversation. I thought I'd do some looking around and found there are currently 145 (of 825) women playing D1 college hockey from MN according to:
http://scholarshipstats.com/hockey.html
(the above site is the best regarding school by school scholarship data)

Os Hockey publishes their list of college commitments here:
http://www.oshockey.com/page/show/2431537-college-commitments

It's not a complete accurate assumption, but let's assume the 145 MN players come from the high school graduating classes of 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2013 (freshman to seniors). If Os's commitment list is correct, they have 136 alumni playing D1 hockey from the years 2013-2016. That would mean 94% of the women playing D1 hockey this year from MN went through Os in some way, shape, or form.

We have to remember that many of these girls started their development elsewhere and were already playing at a higher level than others before they got to Os. Once at Os, their continued development accelerates due to playing with equally skilled, high end players.

Back to a girl making an HP district or section team - yes, many girls who make these teams are apart of Os. Os hand picks their players. As mentioned above, many of these girls were at the top of their games and and we're the best players on their teams well before they got to Os. Due to that, it's no surprise there would be a lot of "Os" girls on these teams.

There's no conspiracy, or money exchanged for a roster spot. Look at every HP roster and write down every girl you've watched multiple times over the past 3 or 4 years at the 10U/squirt levels up to 15U/HS. I'd bet almost every girl you've watched was one of the higher end players on whatever team they played on. Point is that the girls who have made these teams did so because they're pretty good hockey players. However, you don't have to be an Os girl to make these teams. Os is a place your daughter can eventually land, if you choose to pursue and accept an invite, after she has established a higher level of hockey skill. My kid has made several HP teams. She has never played for Os. I know a few more in our area who have also not played for Os and have moved on to the highest levels. Your daughter doesn't need to be an Os girl to make an HP team, she needs to be a good hockey player.
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Hansonbrother



Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 327

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itsfoilcoach wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:
Hansonbrother wrote:
itsfoilcoach wrote:
AAA Dad wrote:
MN_Bowhunter wrote:
HP...The who's who of who paid Winny.


Completely jealous ignorant ridiculous statement IMO.. Give me a list of all the Studs that were overlooked and not playing in this tournament??

Can't wait to get your intel!



Somewhere in the middle of this discussion is the truth. I think Bow hunter here has a valid point. AAA, well I'm not too sure. AAA, not that your forum name means anything by the way, but your attitude says enough. You have limited spots, and a lot of talent out there, and contrary to the Winny gold standard you believe in, there are a lot of kids who donít go this route still. She does have her favorites. I'm sure it wouldn't be good for business if she cuts girls from her own program. I mean all that stellar Winny time (when she' shows up) and being cut from the HP program wouldn't be good advertisement for her. A little naÔve if you think it doesn't play into it at all. Mr. HansonWinnyBrother has spent a few dollars on her program I think...though you can't tell by his biased comments. It also sounds like HB/AAA have drank few gallons of the Winny Kool-Aid...just saying. Fair and balanced isn't in your thought process when monetary investment plays in. I'm wondering if HB and AAA can hold it together when Mrs. Hockey Jesus walks into the room. Your kids still have great skill; have excellent grades, to have a shot at a D1 or D3 school. Doesn't Matter what Winny Jesus says. If youíre good enough you'll get noticed with, or without Winny. But someone has to make the money off your daughter; it might as well be yours. Iíll give her this; she does have some good skills, and a good network to work with. But there are many avenues for this type of communication, not just Winnyís. By the way, Iím an insider on her program as well. But I donít have the Ďhaloí affect when she walks in the room either.


You'd think that with a name like yours and a name like mine, coming from the same movie, we might be on the same page...Not so much.
Obviously we may need to find a common ground here...Would you agree that it would help a girl to get noticed by a D1 school if she were competing in an atmosphere where D1 coaches come to watch several girls of like skills compete against each other? Would you agree if you were a coach traveling to watch kids play, you'd probably choose a venue where you could shoot fish in a barrel versus only see one or two kids that might be on your radar?
I've met too many dads like yourself who hate Winny and feel they can get better bang for their buck somewhere else. Kudos to you. I'm not trying to spend your money or talk you into Winny's program. Only you know what's best for your kid. You're right, its not for everyone, and there are a few kids that get seen without her help. But what I've found is that colleges don't fish the high school games as much as they used to. They would rather fish venues where they will see top kids playing against top kids, so they get a much better read on a how a kid will compete against better competition. Not a top Junior forward walking an average Freshman D in a high school game...which is typical.
I've also run into the "do it yourself dad's" that tell me they are running their own summer camp, and they're putting a tournament team together that will kill any Winny team... And they are going to compete in tournaments that draw more college scouts than any venue that Winny puts together.... only to find out one of the big tournaments was in May, when colleges aren't allowed to travel or scout players.
Say what you want to say, and feel what you want to feel about Winny...fact is, she gives D1 schools more access to these girls than any other venue in Minnesota...all you need to do is come visit any one of her tournaments and you will see schools stacked up like cord wood.
Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause

Well we do agree on a good movie when we see one. I don't doubt she has had many positive influences on girls hockey, and has a good amount of influence on college hockey careers as well. That's why we went to her over the years. Nothing against that part of this topic. But lets call a spade a spade here. She engaged in these outside programs to profit from them as well. I also sometimes see personal choices made based on a personality contest, and loyalty (money spent). That trickles down into these HP/Elite programs and others. Its good to have other shows in town like FHIT/MEGA to name one is a great alterative. I have been to those tournaments by the way; and I have traveled with her out east as well. Good experience. But never put all your eggs in one basket. She is not the end of all means by any stretch of the imagination people. We are lucky to live in a state that has many options for training, and many high-end coaches to mentor these girls. She just doesn't go outside her inner circle much is the problem. She uses other programs to feed her business. That limits the talent pool to the Os circle/HP program., and there in-lies the problem. She limits her exposer to a certain group and that's it. Quick and easy talent pool assembled for her to choose from. So is it about the girls, or is also a little about putting a good product for her business on the ice at the same time, and at the same time ignoring those talented girls outside her HP/Os circle. That's the sad part here, and where Bowhunter has a point.


I don't know that she ignores any talented girl that approaches her and her program. Keep in mind, many choose not to be a part of Os for various reasons...logistics, price, other sports...whatever it may be. But on the other hand, I've also seen many new girls from wherever North or South, start in a league level below because Winny might not know who they are, and then get moved up to one of the advanced leagues quickly...depending on their ability... And regarding her sticking to the kids in her inner circle, You are probably right there...she has a reputation amongst the tournament holders out of state...she knows exactly what she's bringing and they know based on reputation, what she's bringing...She's bringing competitive teams and kids that need colleges to see them; and they are getting great competition from the state of hockey filled with a pool of talented kids that Eastern and Canadian kids want to play against.

Let me be clear, there never will be one basket as a catch all. There never will be a perfect solution. Just like tryouts in any association. There will always be a bubble kid that feels like they are getting screwed...Rarely ever does the best kid get cut, or the worst kid make it.
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MNHockeyFan



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 6221

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lace'emUp wrote:
Os Hockey publishes their list of college commitments here:
http://www.oshockey.com/page/show/2431537-college-commitments

FWIW, McAfee WebAdvisor advises this is a risky site:
Warning: Trouble ahead!
"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."
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Lace'emUp



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNHockeyFan wrote:
Lace'emUp wrote:
Os Hockey publishes their list of college commitments here:
http://www.oshockey.com/page/show/2431537-college-commitments

FWIW, McAfee WebAdvisor advises this is a risky site:
Warning: Trouble ahead!
"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


d'oh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMQSZoT32FU
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zambonidriver



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: HP 15 schedule Reply with quote

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/page/show/3285070-spring-festival-2017-
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zambonidriver



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: 15 rosters Reply with quote

15 rosters are posted
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jg2112



Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 458

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 15 rosters Reply with quote

zambonidriver wrote:
15 rosters are posted


Congrats to your daughter.

The 14s are also posted. D2 is heavy on Forest Lake players. Things look good for them into the future.
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massalsa



Joined: 18 Dec 2013
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like D6 is going to have a couple of tough ones this week against D3 & D2 (that I think they will win) and then will probably pound teams in the games scheduled this weekend.
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zambonidriver



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D3 is going to struggle because of their coach Laughing
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goaliedad31



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My issue with HP is the inequity between districts. Think of next year's Section 6. Will be hard to only pick 20 girls. High level talent could be left behind that could probably make the top 54.
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ShakestheClown



Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's the case, other districts will pick them up for the festival. For instance, districts 11/12 for instance are traditionally short of players at the 14 and 15 levels.
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C_R



Joined: 08 Feb 2011
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goaliedad31 wrote:
My issue with HP is the inequity between districts. Think of next year's Section 6. Will be hard to only pick 20 girls. High level talent could be left behind that could probably make the top 54.


It sounds like your issue is equity between the districts/sections.
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goaliedad31



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking more at the older levels where there are less openings. Section 6 has Blake, Breck, Edina, Cretin, BSM,etc....
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Mavs



Joined: 28 Apr 2015
Posts: 446

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goaliedad31 wrote:
Thinking more at the older levels where there are less openings. Section 6 has Blake, Breck, Edina, Cretin, BSM,etc....


Yes, adding the Blake girls to that group will make them very strong. Section 6 for 17's won consolation and 16's won 3rd place so its not like they were mopping up without the Blake kids. We won't really know how next years 16's will look until the 15's finish up. Next year at 17, that group should be really strong when you add in the Blake kids, who come off the champions this year at 16 in section 5. This year it was section 5 and 4 as the top teams and next year one would guess section 6 jumps up to be the favorite and dilute section 5 a tad. Will it be the same at in the 16 level next year?

Will be fun to watch the 14 and 15's coming up
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Mavs



Joined: 28 Apr 2015
Posts: 446

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goaliedad31 wrote:
Thinking more at the older levels where there are less openings. Section 6 has Blake, Breck, Edina, Cretin, BSM,etc....


They will have Blake but not Breck. Right? Breck stays in section 5
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massalsa



Joined: 18 Dec 2013
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people unless their kid is going thru all the way to 66 & National team has some issues. Here are some thoughts:

I think that most of us on this board agree that Minnesota girls hockey is clearly the deepest and most talented of any state. There is plenty of evidence to support that. There are some very high end girls from all over the country but the #s are huge here compared to everywhere else and while MA or MI might have 3 very high end girls from their states there are not many more than 10-20 more kids that are worthy of National camps or D1 programs at each age (or graduating class). The #s from 2016-2017 D1 season show it. 145 women from MN, then 72 from MA, 35 from IL, 32 from NY, 30 from MI, and 170 total from other states. Interesting that there are 176 from Ontario.

See this site for more info:
http://scholarshipstats.com/hockey.html

I have heard for years from friends with older kids that are graduated or currently playing D1 hockey that when they were watching their kids in St Cloud at u18 camp and u15 camp that there were LOTS of kids that did not make it out of their district to MN Camp at 15 or 54's for 16 & 17 that were CLEARLY way more talented and better than kids from many other states and regions that got to attend Natty camp. I believe that it used to be even worse #s wise with MN getting less slots regardless of talent level.

Regarding the section issue that goaliedad31 brought up there are lots of things to discuss imo. Lots of data points. I watched a bunch of games, looked at points, team performance (scores, records, etc), and even saw a few practices at 16 & 17.

Lets look at Sections 4/5/6 at 16 this year as they will also be eligible next year as 17's and they secured 28 of the 54 spots:

Section 4 had a 2-1 record and lost in Champ to Section 5 while outscoring opponents 11-6. They had 3F, 3D, and 0 goalies that made 54's 15 points between the 6 position players that made 54's. There were 25 total points scored by their section.

Section 5 had a 3-0 record and won the Championship while outscoring opponents 13-3. They had 7F, 2D, and 1 goalie that made 54's. 22 points between the 9 position players that made 54's. 32 total points scored by section.

Section 6 had a 2-1 record, won the 3rd place game and scored 5 goals and had 6 against. They had 7F, 3D, and 2 goalies that made 54's. 6 total points scored between the 10 position players that made 54's. 9 total points scored by section.

Just looking at the data I don't see how S6 should have had 2 goalies to S4's zero. Both sections had 3 54-worthy D...does that mean that the F from S6 were much better defensively with 4 more making 54's? They certainly did not score more as the 7 S6 forwards had only 2 goals and 3 assists. What about S4 having more D make 54's? If their G were not good enough than did they have better defensive position players? Section 4 beat section 6 2-0 and section 6 had more shots in the game. How about more F's from S5?

What about Section 8? 3F, 2D, & 2 goalies. They lost 4-0 to S5 and then beat S2 & S3 by 4 goals each.

As goaliedad31 said Section 6 should be more stacked next year with Blake moving in with 3 01's. 1 Gopher commit, Blake's 3rd leading scorer this past season, and another that made S5 but not 54's. Section 6 will probably score more goals as the 3 combined for 5 goals and 7 assists at this years festival.

There is a lot more to look at but my eyes are crossed and brain hurts. Things to analyze could be the % of outstate kids (and the distribution of spots). How many points these kids scored in their HS season. How many are already committed to D1 schools (does anyone commit at 16 to D3 schools already?). How many are A/AA kids. What % are OS/Winny kids. Then you could take all of these stats and look at the distribution of kids that go to 66/U18/National team.

How about MN hockey getting some form of an evaluation to all of the kids in each district? Maybe even as simple as work on speed, or shooting, or vision of the ice, or back check harder, or whatever...I am guessing that there are kids (and parents) that would LOVE that information!

Or to kids that were close a "sorry you did not make it but were very close. We would encourage you to..." I am guessing that this would be most helpful for 15's and 16's as they have at least 1 more opportunity to try to make a camp.
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Mavs



Joined: 28 Apr 2015
Posts: 446

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

massalsa wrote:
Most people unless their kid is going thru all the way to 66 & National team has some issues. Here are some thoughts:

I think that most of us on this board agree that Minnesota girls hockey is clearly the deepest and most talented of any state. There is plenty of evidence to support that. There are some very high end girls from all over the country but the #s are huge here compared to everywhere else and while MA or MI might have 3 very high end girls from their states there are not many more than 10-20 more kids that are worthy of National camps or D1 programs at each age (or graduating class). The #s from 2016-2017 D1 season show it. 145 women from MN, then 72 from MA, 35 from IL, 32 from NY, 30 from MI, and 170 total from other states. Interesting that there are 176 from Ontario.

See this site for more info:
http://scholarshipstats.com/hockey.html

I have heard for years from friends with older kids that are graduated or currently playing D1 hockey that when they were watching their kids in St Cloud at u18 camp and u15 camp that there were LOTS of kids that did not make it out of their district to MN Camp at 15 or 54's for 16 & 17 that were CLEARLY way more talented and better than kids from many other states and regions that got to attend Natty camp. I believe that it used to be even worse #s wise with MN getting less slots regardless of talent level.

Regarding the section issue that goaliedad31 brought up there are lots of things to discuss imo. Lots of data points. I watched a bunch of games, looked at points, team performance (scores, records, etc), and even saw a few practices at 16 & 17.

Lets look at Sections 4/5/6 at 16 this year as they will also be eligible next year as 17's and they secured 28 of the 54 spots:

Section 4 had a 2-1 record and lost in Champ to Section 5 while outscoring opponents 11-6. They had 3F, 3D, and 0 goalies that made 54's 15 points between the 6 position players that made 54's. There were 25 total points scored by their section.

Section 5 had a 3-0 record and won the Championship while outscoring opponents 13-3. They had 7F, 2D, and 1 goalie that made 54's. 22 points between the 9 position players that made 54's. 32 total points scored by section.

Section 6 had a 2-1 record, won the 3rd place game and scored 5 goals and had 6 against. They had 7F, 3D, and 2 goalies that made 54's. 6 total points scored between the 10 position players that made 54's. 9 total points scored by section.

Just looking at the data I don't see how S6 should have had 2 goalies to S4's zero. Both sections had 3 54-worthy D...does that mean that the F from S6 were much better defensively with 4 more making 54's? They certainly did not score more as the 7 S6 forwards had only 2 goals and 3 assists. What about S4 having more D make 54's? If their G were not good enough than did they have better defensive position players? Section 4 beat section 6 2-0 and section 6 had more shots in the game. How about more F's from S5?

What about Section 8? 3F, 2D, & 2 goalies. They lost 4-0 to S5 and then beat S2 & S3 by 4 goals each.

As goaliedad31 said Section 6 should be more stacked next year with Blake moving in with 3 01's. 1 Gopher commit, Blake's 3rd leading scorer this past season, and another that made S5 but not 54's. Section 6 will probably score more goals as the 3 combined for 5 goals and 7 assists at this years festival.

There is a lot more to look at but my eyes are crossed and brain hurts. Things to analyze could be the % of outstate kids (and the distribution of spots). How many points these kids scored in their HS season. How many are already committed to D1 schools (does anyone commit at 16 to D3 schools already?). How many are A/AA kids. What % are OS/Winny kids. Then you could take all of these stats and look at the distribution of kids that go to 66/U18/National team.

How about MN hockey getting some form of an evaluation to all of the kids in each district? Maybe even as simple as work on speed, or shooting, or vision of the ice, or back check harder, or whatever...I am guessing that there are kids (and parents) that would LOVE that information!

Or to kids that were close a "sorry you did not make it but were very close. We would encourage you to..." I am guessing that this would be most helpful for 15's and 16's as they have at least 1 more opportunity to try to make a camp.


my head hurts...
Never looked at it this closely before. Good stuff and I guess it shows how incredible hard it is to select.

From your date:
First place team: 9 kids
Second place team: 6 kids
Third place team: 12 kids

It would appear team success has nothing to do with numbers, which is opposite of what I would have guessed going in. Champ team 1 goalie, 2nd place team 0 goalies and 3rd place team 2 goalies. Seems a little odd but what do I know.

Looking forward Section 6 had 7F advance and they will be getting the Blake kids so will be loaded up front next year.
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zambonidriver



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: scores from Wed Reply with quote

Dist 3: 2 Dist 10: 2
Dist 2: 2 Dist 6: 1
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massalsa



Joined: 18 Dec 2013
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mavs wrote:
seems like a fair process...

There are more than 54 very good players and not much difference between last 20 in and first 20 out.

Breza had no goals through 2 games (correct me if I am wrong) and then lit it up in the friendship game. Other top end kids had a hard time lighting the lamp as the D, G and back-checking F are all good players and time and space is limited. Girls that scored like crazy in high school find it tough to score in these 3 games.

The evaluations can't be easy. There is a very small handful of players that stand above but really isn't a Grace Zumwinkel and other than Breza's one game, nobody can take over a game, especially with four lines of F and three sets of D. Feels like a really small # with 160 kids playing for a chance to be part of the 54.

The 17's leader had 4 goals in 3 games.

The Final 54 is 30 forwards, 18 defense and 6 goalies.


Was re-reading the thread and came across this from Mavs. BTW I think that the number is more like last 10 in and 10 out rather than 20. But for the most part I agree with your points.

I was wondering what % or # of girls from 15's National Camp made the 54's. Here is what I found from a hockey hub link from last summer and the rosters of 16's. Cant find who made what for the 17's when they were 15:

http://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/news_article/show/666315?referrer_id=2208130

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/page/show/3304083-girls-16-s-red?subseason=392652

Every Forward from National Camp last summer except the * USA hockey at large picks made it (not counting Breza who did NOT go to 15s camp but was a USA hockey pick). Breza + 5 others were selected that were NOT "USA hockey at large picks" and added as Forwards. (Interesting aside is that the other 3 * USA picks happened to play for Section 5 and did not make 54s.)

Defense had 4 national camp kids not make it and had 5 new ones. One of them was a move in who actually made the Select 66 camp as a 15 yo. Something that no MN girls made last year.

Goalies were all invited back + 2 new ones for 6 total.

I also did a quick look at # of commitments at 16's and 17's. I think that there are roughly 10 16's(01) publicly committed and 22 or so 17's (00). Anyone have better commitment #s?

Note to 2002's...

Not much turnover at all as only 4 of the 43 MN National camp picks were not invited back (I think that 1 of the D has a knee injury so maybe only 3). 11 additions out of the 8 section teams of 20 each. If my math is correct only 10% of the kids that did NOT make 15's Nat camp that played were invited for a chance to make Select 66 or U18 camp.
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InigoMontoya



Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 1714

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that there are roughly 10 16's(01)


It looks like 15 01's. 14 10th graders and 1 9th grader [also a 9th grade 02]
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thegreatone99



Joined: 03 Jan 2016
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

massalsa wrote:
Most people unless their kid is going thru all the way to 66 & National team has some issues. Here are some thoughts:

I think that most of us on this board agree that Minnesota girls hockey is clearly the deepest and most talented of any state. There is plenty of evidence to support that. There are some very high end girls from all over the country but the #s are huge here compared to everywhere else and while MA or MI might have 3 very high end girls from their states there are not many more than 10-20 more kids that are worthy of National camps or D1 programs at each age (or graduating class). The #s from 2016-2017 D1 season show it. 145 women from MN, then 72 from MA, 35 from IL, 32 from NY, 30 from MI, and 170 total from other states. Interesting that there are 176 from Ontario.

See this site for more info:
http://scholarshipstats.com/hockey.html

I have heard for years from friends with older kids that are graduated or currently playing D1 hockey that when they were watching their kids in St Cloud at u18 camp and u15 camp that there were LOTS of kids that did not make it out of their district to MN Camp at 15 or 54's for 16 & 17 that were CLEARLY way more talented and better than kids from many other states and regions that got to attend Natty camp. I believe that it used to be even worse #s wise with MN getting less slots regardless of talent level.

Regarding the section issue that goaliedad31 brought up there are lots of things to discuss imo. Lots of data points. I watched a bunch of games, looked at points, team performance (scores, records, etc), and even saw a few practices at 16 & 17.

Lets look at Sections 4/5/6 at 16 this year as they will also be eligible next year as 17's and they secured 28 of the 54 spots:

Section 4 had a 2-1 record and lost in Champ to Section 5 while outscoring opponents 11-6. They had 3F, 3D, and 0 goalies that made 54's 15 points between the 6 position players that made 54's. There were 25 total points scored by their section.

Section 5 had a 3-0 record and won the Championship while outscoring opponents 13-3. They had 7F, 2D, and 1 goalie that made 54's. 22 points between the 9 position players that made 54's. 32 total points scored by section.

Section 6 had a 2-1 record, won the 3rd place game and scored 5 goals and had 6 against. They had 7F, 3D, and 2 goalies that made 54's. 6 total points scored between the 10 position players that made 54's. 9 total points scored by section.

Just looking at the data I don't see how S6 should have had 2 goalies to S4's zero. Both sections had 3 54-worthy D...does that mean that the F from S6 were much better defensively with 4 more making 54's? They certainly did not score more as the 7 S6 forwards had only 2 goals and 3 assists. What about S4 having more D make 54's? If their G were not good enough than did they have better defensive position players? Section 4 beat section 6 2-0 and section 6 had more shots in the game. How about more F's from S5?

What about Section 8? 3F, 2D, & 2 goalies. They lost 4-0 to S5 and then beat S2 & S3 by 4 goals each.

As goaliedad31 said Section 6 should be more stacked next year with Blake moving in with 3 01's. 1 Gopher commit, Blake's 3rd leading scorer this past season, and another that made S5 but not 54's. Section 6 will probably score more goals as the 3 combined for 5 goals and 7 assists at this years festival.

There is a lot more to look at but my eyes are crossed and brain hurts. Things to analyze could be the % of outstate kids (and the distribution of spots). How many points these kids scored in their HS season. How many are already committed to D1 schools (does anyone commit at 16 to D3 schools already?). How many are A/AA kids. What % are OS/Winny kids. Then you could take all of these stats and look at the distribution of kids that go to 66/U18/National team.

How about MN hockey getting some form of an evaluation to all of the kids in each district? Maybe even as simple as work on speed, or shooting, or vision of the ice, or back check harder, or whatever...I am guessing that there are kids (and parents) that would LOVE that information!

Or to kids that were close a "sorry you did not make it but were very close. We would encourage you to..." I am guessing that this would be most helpful for 15's and 16's as they have at least 1 more opportunity to try to make a camp.


Sounds like this may be FAKE news
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zambonidriver



Joined: 17 Jan 2014
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HP15 Girls: W/L/T for each team 5 games total.
D2: 5-0
D3: 2-2-1
D4/9: 2-3
D5: 0-5
D6: 4-1
D8: 1-4
D10: 3-1-1
D11/12: 2-3
D15: 2-3
D16: 2-3
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knights14



Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: HP Reply with quote

The HP 16&17 festival is more of an individual tournament then a team tournament. Coach's are not supposed to stack lines and are told not to have systems in place. That being said there are always a few coach's who think its all about them and go against everything they are told not to do. Example:
section 3 vs 8 The evaluator's wanted to see certain player combo's in both haves for section 3 so there were some not so strong line combo's going up against stacked lines for section 8. After the game the coach's from section 8 were asked why they loaded up lines and there answer was, with a laugh, "because we wanted to win" Wrong answer. This festival is not about who has the strongest section its about finding out who your best players are and how they perform with every level of talent on your roster. If it was about the team it would be a completely different ballgame.
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