The Hermantown Thread

green4 · Post by **green4** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:57 pm

Hermantown can stay in single A for a bit longer

Goose21 · Post by **Goose21** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm

I wonder how many State A championships it will take to avenge that loss?

Stang5280 · Post by **Stang5280** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:50 pm

Do we need to start an Alexandria thread now about moving them back into 8AA?

(As an aside, the 1996 Alex team was really good and probably deserved a better fate than losing to eventual champion Apple Valley in the AA quarters.)

hockey59 · Post by **hockey59** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:04 pm

Goose21 wrote:I wonder how many State A championships it will take to avenge that loss?

Hey, they still got to go to State! (albeit Class A) And I think Coach Andrews (frankly) has the balls to move Hermantown up to AA following next season...which I applaud!

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:16 pm

Goose21 wrote:I wonder how many State A championships it will take to avenge that loss?

3 in a row. I’m really fine with Hermantown staying in A.

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:17 pm

hockey59 wrote:
Goose21 wrote:I wonder how many State A championships it will take to avenge that loss?
Hey, they still got to go to State! (albeit Class A) And I think Coach Andrews (frankly) has the balls to move Hermantown up to AA following next season...which I applaud!

I’ve got nothing but good things to say about Coach Andrews.

Goose21 · Post by **Goose21** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:20 pm

hockey59 wrote:
Goose21 wrote:I wonder how many State A championships it will take to avenge that loss?
Hey, they still got to go to State! (albeit Class A) And I think Coach Andrews (frankly) has the balls to move Hermantown up to AA following next season...which I applaud!

He does seem more willing, but it will be an uphill battle. I do hope he is successful.

rainier2 · Post by **rainier2** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:25 pm

Goose21 wrote:
hockey59 wrote:
Goose21 wrote:I wonder how many State A championships it will take to avenge that loss?
Hey, they still got to go to State! (albeit Class A) And I think Coach Andrews (frankly) has the balls to move Hermantown up to AA following next season...which I applaud!
He does seem more willing, but it will be an uphill battle. I do hope he is successful.

I wish they would ask the kids which class they'd like to play in.

northwoods oldtimer · Post by **northwoods oldtimer** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:31 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Goose21 wrote:
hockey59 wrote: Hey, they still got to go to State! (albeit Class A) And I think Coach Andrews (frankly) has the balls to move Hermantown up to AA following next season...which I applaud!
He does seem more willing, but it will be an uphill battle. I do hope he is successful.
I wish they would ask the kids which class they'd like to play in.

Agree

Puckguy19 · Post by **Puckguy19** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:32 pm

Jeffy95 wrote:
ilovemesomehockey wrote:
Jeffy95 wrote: Yes, his Dad was a great player in Warroad and then played for UMD. He did volunteer a lot of time to the Association. In fairness to the whole story, however, he was also the President of HAHA and head coach of the Bantam AA team when he allowed an illegal player to play an entire season with the team. He was not a fan of the MN Hockey rules. They are in much better hands with the new President, who is a very good guy.
Im not sure thats true,however, the loads and loads of crap one must endure in that position cannot be understated. I agree about the new President - great guy
It was actually the PeeWee AA team, but yes, it's true. The District asked him about it after the fact. Claimed he didn't know where the kid lived even though he had known his Dad for 7 years and everyone in the Association knew where they lived.

Note: I deleted the post as to not take away from his kid but you quoted it too quick.

He must have learned from Summer Santa, growing up.

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:42 pm

It will be nice to see a youth single A program win the high school A championship.

pekyman · Post by **pekyman** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:02 pm

Fun fact rainman/jeffy do some research on Orono.
Ultra rich suburb of a real metro area with a population less than Hermantown and a school size almost double at about 1,000. Orono is on The N end if lake Minnetonka and has the highest per capital income of any town with a hockey program in Mn at around $$65,000. I wonder how many of there players have played for Orono since mites? How many have moved in since mites? How many open enrollees? I have a million questions about who these kids are and where they came from. Now that Breck is not focused on Hockey and with at least a 2nd at state guaranteed, looks like the next Hermantown on steroids to me. You need to start you hate campaign soon or Hibbing/Denfeld will never have a chance to go to state. Oh wait, Orono in not in 7A so who cares.

rainier2 · Post by **rainier2** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:12 pm

pekyman wrote:Fun fact rainman/jeffy do some research on Orono.
Ultra rich suburb of a real metro area with a population less than Hermantown and a school size almost double at about 1,000. Orono is on The N end if lake Minnetonka and has the highest per capital income of any town with a hockey program in Mn at around $$65,000. I wonder how many of there players have played for Orono since mites? How many have moved in since mites? How many open enrollees? I have a million questions about who these kids are and where they came from. Now that Breck is not focused on Hockey and with at least a 2nd at state guaranteed, looks like the next Hermantown on steroids to me. You need to start you hate campaign soon or Hibbing/Denfeld will never have a chance to go to state. Oh wait, Orono in not in 7A so who cares.

Let me know how your information search goes.

Also, let me know which of the following criteria Orono has met that would put them on par with the Hawks:

-Been to 10 of last 12 A title games, with 3 titles.
-Beat eventual AA champions two years in a row.
-Play AA at all youth levels but go down to A for HS.
-Went 3 years without losing to an A team.
-Regularly compete with top AA competition.

You're pretty salty for a guy whose team just hoisted a 3rd place trophy. Enjoy the moment, peky!

HHawks4Ever · Post by **HHawks4Ever** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:12 am

Two week late post:

After attending every state tournament game this year, if Coach Andrews does feel it is time to move up to AA (and gets the necessary people to vote this way), I truly hope this year's team is the weakest for many years to come. The gap in size/speed/physical play/overall skill between Hermantown and the eight AA teams I watched was very easy to see. Minus maybe HM and LN, all of the other AA teams would've put Hermantown in running time based on how they played at state. (Yes I know they lost to Minnetonka 5-3 during the season, I attended that game and looking back on it I'm not sure how they only lost by two goals). As someone mentioned in the other thread, flat out this year's team belonged in class A.

The 6-1 loss to Alexandria was no fluke. The disallowed goal that would've put Hermantown up 2-1 definitely didn't help but it's not like I'd blame the referees for the loss or anything. Alexandria came in and executed their game plan and were better in pretty much all facets of the game. With only one strong line (that was out on the ice a ton), I never had any hope that a comeback would happen when they went down 3-1 early in the 3rd.

Overall, I just did not see anything in Hermantown's game that would lead me to believe that they are ready for a move up to AA. Coach Andrews obviously knows better than I do so I trust him if that is what is decided but I'd still be skeptical of the decision.

Jeffy95 · Post by **Jeffy95** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:47 am

HHawks4Ever wrote:Two week late post:

After attending every state tournament game this year, if Coach Andrews does feel it is time to move up to AA (and gets the necessary people to vote this way), I truly hope this year's team is the weakest for many years to come. The gap in size/speed/physical play/overall skill between Hermantown and the eight AA teams I watched was very easy to see. Minus maybe HM and LN, all of the other AA teams would've put Hermantown in running time based on how they played at state. (Yes I know they lost to Minnetonka 5-3 during the season, I attended that game and looking back on it I'm not sure how they only lost by two goals). As someone mentioned in the other thread, flat out this year's team belonged in class A.

The 6-1 loss to Alexandria was no fluke. The disallowed goal that would've put Hermantown up 2-1 definitely didn't help but it's not like I'd blame the referees for the loss or anything. Alexandria came in and executed their game plan and were better in pretty much all facets of the game. With only one strong line (that was out on the ice a ton), I never had any hope that a comeback would happen when they went down 3-1 early in the 3rd.

Overall, I just did not see anything in Hermantown's game that would lead me to believe that they are ready for a move up to AA. Coach Andrews obviously knows better than I do so I trust him if that is what is decided but I'd still be skeptical of the decision.

You're right, everyone knew that Hermantown was in a down Year this year. Despite having Watkins and Herter as transfers they didn't have the Proctor and Duluth stars that they've had the last 12 years. They have never made it to a Championship game without Proctor or Duluth kids. That changes next year. There is an 8 year run of Proctor and Duluth kids coming. They will be right back on top and it will be business as usual. Their Bantam AA team and PeeWee AA team both made State this year. Both teams are loaded with Proctor, Duluth and kids from all over Northern Minnesota. The Hawks will be just fine.

rainier2 · Post by **rainier2** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:25 am

HHawks4Ever wrote:Two week late post:

After attending every state tournament game this year, if Coach Andrews does feel it is time to move up to AA (and gets the necessary people to vote this way), I truly hope this year's team is the weakest for many years to come. The gap in size/speed/physical play/overall skill between Hermantown and the eight AA teams I watched was very easy to see. Minus maybe HM and LN, all of the other AA teams would've put Hermantown in running time based on how they played at state. (Yes I know they lost to Minnetonka 5-3 during the season, I attended that game and looking back on it I'm not sure how they only lost by two goals). As someone mentioned in the other thread, flat out this year's team belonged in class A.

The 6-1 loss to Alexandria was no fluke. The disallowed goal that would've put Hermantown up 2-1 definitely didn't help but it's not like I'd blame the referees for the loss or anything. Alexandria came in and executed their game plan and were better in pretty much all facets of the game. With only one strong line (that was out on the ice a ton), I never had any hope that a comeback would happen when they went down 3-1 early in the 3rd.

Overall, I just did not see anything in Hermantown's game that would lead me to believe that they are ready for a move up to AA. Coach Andrews obviously knows better than I do so I trust him if that is what is decided but I'd still be skeptical of the decision.

This just supports my theory that the Hermantown players just don't get excited to play in the A tourney anymore. These kids played AA all through youth, competed well, and then get demoted to single A where making it to the title game isn't a challenge anymore.

They did just fine against good AA programs this year, beating Wayzata, LS, and Marshall; and played close games with Tonka, EP, BSM, STMA, and CEC. Saying they would be put into running time is insane.

The "If we can't beat everyone in AA all the time, every year, then we should stay in single A" mind set drives me and many others crazy. No one gets to be great every year. Edina, EP, Tonka, East, etc., even these programs do not get to go to state every year. When Hermantown goes AA, they will get to state some years, and some years they will be the #4 seed in 7AA and lose in the semis, so start adjusting your expectations now so it won't be such a shock.

Hermantown beat the eventual AA champ two years in a row, played this year's AA champ tight, and all their youth teams were among the best in AA. Do you really want to see them continue to dominate in A just because they lost to a solid A team that played a great game?

The players and the coach don't want to be in A anymore, so I hope they get their wish next season.

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:47 pm

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.

BigTen · Post by **BigTen** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:34 pm

kniven wrote:https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.

I disagree strongly! There is no way schools like Grand Rapids or Roseau are going to drop down to the A level. They would most likely protest and refuse to play. They have too much pride and history.

rainier2 · Post by **rainier2** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:47 pm

kniven wrote:https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.

It's St. George's opinion, but forcing Hill-Murray, GR, BSM, etc., to play in single A? Ludicrous. It would essentially become a private school tourney, which is the exact opposite of what the intention of creating Class A was. All the metro privates would play AA teams all year long due to proximity and then they'd step down to A for the playoffs? Hermantown has already shown how unpopular that strategy is.

Also, Hermantown would go back to losing to a metro private every year at state and their whining would ratchet right back up to full volume.

Just because the Hermantown decision makers are afraid to let their kids play against appropriate competition doesn't mean the programs that do should be punished.

Sorry Louie, but watching H-M play BSM every year in the A title game would not make interest nor attendance skyrocket.

rainier2 · Post by **rainier2** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:50 pm

rainier2 wrote:
kniven wrote:https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.
It's St. George's opinion, but forcing Hill-Murray, GR, BSM, etc., to play in single A? Ludicrous. It would essentially become a private school tourney, which is the exact opposite of what the intention of creating Class A was. All the metro privates would play AA teams all year long due to proximity and then they'd step down to A for the playoffs? Hermantown has already shown how unpopular that strategy is.

Also, Hermantown would go back to losing to a metro private every year at state and their whining would ratchet right back up to full volume.

Just because the Hermantown decision makers are afraid to let their kids play against appropriate competition doesn't mean the programs that do should be punished.

Sorry Louie, but watching H-M play BSM every year in the A title game would not make interest nor attendance skyrocket.

The suggestion to do away with opting up as a way to stop the complaining about Hermantown and increase statewide interest is deliciously rich with irony, because:

1. Hermantown would not be a power if it weren't for opting up. Hermantown starting having success once A was created. If northern teams like GR, CEC, Hibbing, and Greenway had always been forced to stay in 7A, how many times would Hermantown have made state since 1994? They certainly wouldn't have been able to build the momentum they have which has made them so attractive to transfers and open enrollees.

2. The quickest way to destroy interest from outstate would be to have an A tourney where teams from metro areas are the only ones who have a chance at winning. A Hermantown-STA-HM-BSM final four may sound sexy, but is anyone from Alexandria, Luverne, TRF, the Iron Range, or SE MN going to give a crap? Instead of Luverne having to beat SCC in the first round, now they will have to beat Holy Family or GR? Greenway's program came back from the brink of extinction to this year pushing a down Hermantown team to OT in the 7A final. If they had to go through GR and CEC first just to get a crack at Hermantown, how long would hockey excitement in that community last? How long would it last in the other 8 communities in 7A?

The "no opting up" idea has more holes than a Transformers movie plot.

Doc Holliday · Post by **Doc Holliday** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:51 pm

The one part of the article that I agreed with is the notion of pressuring a program once they've achieved success, with Benilde & St. Thomas being two of those. I don't like it, and I wouldn't like it with Hermantown, except for the fact that Plante was running his mouth about where the other schools should be playing.

Also, I do think hopefully some schools start to realize that it's not some big disrespect slap if they choose to play A instead of AA. I guess I'm looking at Roseau & Holy Angels.

rainier2 · Post by **rainier2** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:53 pm

rainier2 wrote:
rainier2 wrote:
kniven wrote:https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.
It's St. George's opinion, but forcing Hill-Murray, GR, BSM, etc., to play in single A? Ludicrous. It would essentially become a private school tourney, which is the exact opposite of what the intention of creating Class A was. All the metro privates would play AA teams all year long due to proximity and then they'd step down to A for the playoffs? Hermantown has already shown how unpopular that strategy is.

Also, Hermantown would go back to losing to a metro private every year at state and their whining would ratchet right back up to full volume.

Just because the Hermantown decision makers are afraid to let their kids play against appropriate competition doesn't mean the programs that do should be punished.

Sorry Louie, but watching H-M play BSM every year in the A title game would not make interest nor attendance skyrocket.
The suggestion to do away with opting up as a way to stop the complaining about Hermantown and increase statewide interest is deliciously rich with irony, because:

1. Hermantown would not be a power if it weren't for opting up. Hermantown starting having success once A was created. If northern teams like GR, CEC, Hibbing, and Greenway had always been forced to stay in 7A, how many times would Hermantown have made state since 1994? They certainly wouldn't have been able to build the momentum they have which has made them so attractive to transfers and open enrollees.

2. The quickest way to destroy interest from outstate would be to have an A tourney where teams from metro areas are the only ones who have a chance at winning. A Hermantown-STA-HM-BSM final four may sound sexy, but is anyone from Alexandria, Luverne, TRF, the Iron Range, or SE MN going to give a crap? Instead of Luverne having to beat SCC in the first round, now they will have to beat Holy Family or GR? Greenway's program came back from the brink of extinction to this year pushing a down Hermantown team to OT in the 7A final. If they had to go through GR and CEC first just to get a crack at Hermantown, how long would hockey excitement in that community last? How long would it last in the other 8 communities in 7A?

The "no opting up" idea has more holes than a Transformers movie plot.

Just to drive home the point that Hermantown would not be a hockey power if opting up never existed, here are the PageStat ratings from the years Hermantown went to state, success they used to build their program into the juggernaut that went to 8 straight A title games.

97-98 GR 14, Greenway 16, Hibbing 19, Hermantown 35, Cloquet 38
98-99 Hibbing 12, Greenway 13, Hermantown 28, GR 48, Cloquet 51
00-01 Greenway 2, Cloquet 5, Hibbing 11, GR 31, Hermantown 43
05-06 Cloquet 8, GR 14, Hermantown 18, Hibbing 44, Greenway 144
06-07 Hermantown 9, Cloquet 13, GR 15, Hibbing 18, Greenway 101

If all these teams had been forced to be in 7A, how many years would Hermantown have gone to state? I'd say once, and even then having to get by Cloquet or GR in 06-07 would have been no guarantee.

It's simply a fact that the opting up of GR, CEC, Hibbing, and Greenway allowed Hermantown to have the success necessary to gain momentum in building their program.

kniven · Post by **kniven** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:00 pm

Nice work Rain Man. You are correct and back it up nicely....

Stang5280 · Post by **Stang5280** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:45 pm

rainier2 wrote:
kniven wrote:https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.
It's St. George's opinion, but forcing Hill-Murray, GR, BSM, etc., to play in single A? Ludicrous. It would essentially become a private school tourney, which is the exact opposite of what the intention of creating Class A was. All the metro privates would play AA teams all year long due to proximity and then they'd step down to A for the playoffs? Hermantown has already shown how unpopular that strategy is.

Also, Hermantown would go back to losing to a metro private every year at state and their whining would ratchet right back up to full volume.

Just because the Hermantown decision makers are afraid to let their kids play against appropriate competition doesn't mean the programs that do should be punished.

Sorry Louie, but watching H-M play BSM every year in the A title game would not make interest nor attendance skyrocket.

I agree 100% with your points on this subject, and this is coming from someone whose alma mater (Breck) benefited greatly from fellow private schools opting up and faced similar ire to move up to AA at times.

It seems as if the article is written from a very local perspective, focusing on the great dogfights that would happen in 7A if the Duluth area and Range programs stayed in single A, without thinking of the greater repercussions around the state. Not to mention that it ignores the impact on the few AA size programs in northern MN, who would be forced into sections consisting primarily of metro teams.

Jeffy95 · Post by **Jeffy95** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:50 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
rainier2 wrote:
kniven wrote:https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sport ... ion-opting

I agree. And I have said this on the forum. No opting up allowed in High school hockey.
It's St. George's opinion, but forcing Hill-Murray, GR, BSM, etc., to play in single A? Ludicrous. It would essentially become a private school tourney, which is the exact opposite of what the intention of creating Class A was. All the metro privates would play AA teams all year long due to proximity and then they'd step down to A for the playoffs? Hermantown has already shown how unpopular that strategy is.

Also, Hermantown would go back to losing to a metro private every year at state and their whining would ratchet right back up to full volume.

Just because the Hermantown decision makers are afraid to let their kids play against appropriate competition doesn't mean the programs that do should be punished.

Sorry Louie, but watching H-M play BSM every year in the A title game would not make interest nor attendance skyrocket.
I agree 100% with your points on this subject, and this is coming from someone whose alma mater (Breck) benefited greatly from fellow private schools opting up and faced similar ire to move up to AA at times.

It seems as if the article is written from a very local perspective, focusing on the great dogfights that would happen in 7A if the Duluth area and Range programs stayed in single A, without thinking of the greater repercussions around the state. Not to mention that it ignores the impact on the few AA size programs in northern MN, who would be forced into sections consisting primarily of metro teams.

It's important to constantly reinforce one fact in this debate.

If Hermantown won with Hermantown kids, there would be no calls for them to move up. They would be loved and cheered the same way that EGF was.

They've never done that, and that's where the pressure to move up comes from.

Last year's State Champion roster had 11 of 20 kids that came from other Associations. Sorry, but If you stay in Class A under those circumstances, you deserve all of the Public Shame that you get.