AA SF: #3 Duluth East vs. #2 Edina

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Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

Who wins?

Duluth East
14
45%
Edina
17
55%
 
Total votes: 31

JerseyDave
Posts: 303
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Post by JerseyDave » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:01 am

Net Presence wrote:Unfortunately, the big concern for not only this coach but others is his off ice "maturity". Believe me, the moment one of any these teams are convinced he's improved enough in this area, Worth will have numerous offers to consider.
Net Presence, thanks for the insight on the situation. I'm curious of course what maturity issues are at play here but don't want to speculate. To me, he seems humble, happy and confident in the interviews I've seen. At least we know he's definitely on the radar of these programs.

hockey59
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Post by hockey59 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:23 am

GPGT wrote:Wow. East really pissed off Edina

3rd place game. Late in the 3rd

Edina - 10
Centennial - 0
Just a testament to how emotionally spent Centennial is today, after playing the late game & having an early lead & going into the 3rd period tied...and then having Tonka pull away. And that also demonstrates how much offensive power Edina has this year when they get ROLLING! But keep in mind, Centennial played Edina to a 3-2 loss earlier this year at Braemar.

green4
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Post by green4 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:29 am

Here you go West Metro

2013 Edina Team D1 players

Ben Foley- Harvard

Parker Reno- RPI

Matt Nelson- Princeton

Hayden Anderson- Princeton

Cullen Munson- Minnesota

Miguel Fidler- Ohio State

Connor Hurley- Notre Dame/ Minnesota

Bo Brauer- Notre Dame

Dylan Malmquist- Notre Dame

Tyler Nanne- Ohio State/ Minnesota

10 Total

And to reference what I meant earlier about many not thinking these kids were much of a threat here are the 2013 season regular season point totals.

Hurley: 15G 28A 43P
Malmquist: 18G 17A 35P
Jordahl: 15G 15A 30P
Nanne: 9G 10A 19P
Reno: 1G 17A 18P
Munson: 6G 10A 16P
Brauer: 4G 12A 16P
Nelson: 3G 11A 14P
Fidler: 5G 6A 11P
Walsh: 4G 4A 8P
Foley: 0G 4A 4P
Anderson: 2G 0A 2P

Pretty low when D1 commits are getting single digit point totals and low to mid teens. Even the top line is pretty low for having two d1 players.


Anyway here is 2014 D1 commits

Paul Meyer-Colgate
Ben Foley- Harvard
Ryan Zuhlsdorf- Minnesota
Bellows-Boston University/ Portland WHL
Cullen Munson- Minnesota
Miguel Fidler- Ohio State
Garrett Wait- Committed to Minnesota
Casey Dornbach- Committed to Harvard
Dylan Malmquist- Notre Dame
Henry Bowlby- Harvard
Sam Fuss- Niagara University but got hurt his freshman year and is back in juniors now.
Tyler Nanne- Ohio State/ Minnesota

12 total if Wait and Dornbach follow through on their commitments and if you count Fuss's cup of coffee

2015

Paul Meyer- Colgate
Ben Foley- Harvard
Casey Dornbach- Committed to Harvard
Luke Johnson- Committed to Providence
Sam Walker- Committed to Minnesota
Ben Copeland- Committed to Colorado College
Garret Wait- Committed to Minnesota
Clayton Phillips- Minnesota
Dylan Malmquist- Notre Dame
Henry Bowlby- Harvard
Sam Fuss- Played at Niagara University got hurt.
Bram Scheerer- Committed to Colorado College

Total is 12 if everyone follows through and if you count Fuss.

Fuss's future might be up in the air so I would say

2013-10
2014-11
2015-11

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:34 am

hockey59 wrote: Centennial played Edina to a 3-2 loss earlier this year at Braemar.


Yes, and Edina also beat them in the Schwan conso after they lost to Hill & Tonka.

40% of Edina's games ended in running time this year, including against strong opponents like:

Minnetonka
Holy Family
Wayzata
Centennial
Eden Prairie
Hill-Murray
Lakeville North
Blaine
Roseau
Grand Rapids

Centennial is in good company.

I'm surprised they no-showed today. I wasn't impressed when I saw their close Schwan game with Hill-Murray. They looked okay in their second Edina game. This week on Th & F I felt they looked much improved.
Be kind. Rewind.

WestMetro
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Post by WestMetro » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:14 pm

Thanks Green 4 , Excellent research!

hockey59
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:01 pm

Post by hockey59 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:56 pm

O-townClown wrote:
hockey59 wrote: Centennial played Edina to a 3-2 loss earlier this year at Braemar.


Yes, and Edina also beat them in the Schwan conso after they lost to Hill & Tonka.

40% of Edina's games ended in running time this year, including against strong opponents like:

Minnetonka
Holy Family
Wayzata
Centennial
Eden Prairie
Hill-Murray
Lakeville North
Blaine
Roseau
Grand Rapids

Centennial is in good company.

I'm surprised they no-showed today. I wasn't impressed when I saw their close Schwan game with Hill-Murray. They looked okay in their second Edina game. This week on Th & F I felt they looked much improved.
Yeah...I think it’s safe to say this years Edina team is arguably the greatest team EVER at putting teams on running time...while falling short of the Title game and getting beat twice by the AA Champions! 😉😲🤗

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:06 am

Fun stuff here. For me, at least, this matchup has come to define the Tourney over the past decade. There's just something about these two going at it that just captures everything you want in what is normally the most intense game of the Tourney, that first game on Friday when the X is overflowing by the 2nd period. The entire arena just seemed locked in on this game, and it delivered.

I will disagree somewhat with Green4's take on 2011. East had 6 D-I players, none of whom were seniors, and one of whom was a freshman who didn't play (Beaulieu). Edina had 10 D-I players, 5 of whom were seniors, plus Ben Walker, who probably would've been D-I if he'd stayed stateside. The Hornets were the defending state champs, and were riding a 4-game win streak over East over the previous 4 seasons, their best run of success against a team that otherwise has a strong record against them in the 2-class era. They'd narrowly won a regular season meeting, and had had a stronger season to date. I wouldn't really call it an upset of any magnitude given East's potential and how they were playing at the time, but I think it's hard to argue that East had a clear talent edge.

I also definitely agree '13 Edina had more talent than East despite what the seeds said, and thought so at the time as well. That East team only had two D-I players, Moore and Beaulieu. Granted, they were senior-heavy and had a heap of players whose talent level was just below that somewhat arbitrary D-I threshold (Kerr, Toscano, Lundgren, Jack Forbort, Trapp). Still, in my time watching East, only the 2015 playoff run surpasses 2013 in the Hounds' ability to get more out of comparatively less front-line talent.

Otherwise, I think Green's take is spot-on, including of this year's matchup. Edina will almost certainly end up with more D-I players, but East again has a lot of very, very solid HS players who knew their roles within a system. That has long been the strength of the East program, especially post-1990s dynasty. The Hounds have had the occasional spurt of talent since (2011-12, this group), but East's ability to churn out a bunch of kids who handle the spotlight during moments like Friday night is what keeps this program good year after year.

One last offering from the useless stat department on this Tournament rivalry, so to speak: Edina has only lost in the semis five times over the years. All of those losses are to East.

In the end, winning is hard. Giles has more titles than any active coach, including one that was an upset at the time in 2010. (Though, again, looking at the post-HS careers of the players on that Hornet team vs. the Minnetonka team they beat, the Hornets come out looking pretty good.) But he's also had some teams fall memorably short, from the Everson-Budish-Lee squads of the late 00s to 2015 to this one, plus the Wayzata losses of varying magnitudes in sections. That's not a knock on Curt; one can say the same thing about some of the great Randolph and Lechner teams that have fallen short, and for that matter, even Willard Ikola suffered some upsets, and was a fairly pedestrian 10-9 in State Tournament quarterfinals. (He made his money in the later rounds.)

Coaching alone can't make a bad team good, but it can take a good team and give it the pieces it needs to succeed in a big moment, and it can offer stability and staying power over the years, building all those intangible things that feed into a winning culture and keep a feeder system going, even in places where not all of the the normal predictors of hockey success (growing population, urban expansion) are present. (Of course, Edina and the east side of Duluth have other things going for them financially that a lot of other places don't, too.)

But after that, the rest is up to the players, and even if you gameplan everything right, it's no guarantee, as the different outcomes for East on Friday and Saturday nights showed. That's hockey.

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:54 am

Great thoughts, Karl. One observation I have about Randolph, Giles, and guys like them is that they only lose high profile big games because they're always in them.

I think you are reading way too much into one Wayzata game. Edina went to 9 straight state tournaments, the sections changed, and then Wayzata knocked them out before winning the state title.

The only surprise was the upset in 2017. There was no repeat this season.

I'm curious to see what happens to the Trojans as they lose two Div. I forwards and have had a great deal of trouble scoring goals. It's a strong association and should be back on track quickly.
Be kind. Rewind.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:23 am

O-townClown wrote:Great thoughts, Karl. One observation I have about Randolph, Giles, and guys like them is that they only lose high profile big games because they're always in them.

I think you are reading way too much into one Wayzata game. Edina went to 9 straight state tournaments, the sections changed, and then Wayzata knocked them out before winning the state title.

The only surprise was the upset in 2017. There was no repeat this season.

I'm curious to see what happens to the Trojans as they lose two Div. I forwards and have had a great deal of trouble scoring goals. It's a strong association and should be back on track quickly.
You're right, of course, O-Town. I was misremembering the seeds in 2016, and that was no upset. I'm losing the details with age. :wink:

I expect the Trojans will be fine next season...the program is so deep that O'Leary's system basically allows him to just plug in and play. One of their top-flight forwards didn't get the attention he is because he's a big scorer, either. Probably not on the Hornets' level, but probably back within upset range, unlike this season.

Net Presence
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Post by Net Presence » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:42 am

JerseyDave wrote:
Net Presence wrote:Unfortunately, the big concern for not only this coach but others is his off ice "maturity". Believe me, the moment one of any these teams are convinced he's improved enough in this area, Worth will have numerous offers to consider.
Net Presence, thanks for the insight on the situation. I'm curious of course what maturity issues are at play here but don't want to speculate. To me, he seems humble, happy and confident in the interviews I've seen. At least we know he's definitely on the radar of these programs.
JerseyDave, your welcome and yes, I won't get in to any details regarding what I know about the "maturity" issues I referenced. Other than to say they're the standard things that affect kids this age and, that might make any Div. I program think a little longer before committing to any player with them. I actually heard today from someone I trust that both UMD and St. Cloud are close making some type of offer. Obviously, only time will tell if my source is right. :)

green4
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Location: Edina

Post by green4 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:27 am

karl(east) wrote:
I will disagree somewhat with Green4's take on 2011. East had 6 D-I players, none of whom were seniors, and one of whom was a freshman who didn't play (Beaulieu). Edina had 10 D-I players, 5 of whom were seniors, plus Ben Walker, who probably would've been D-I if he'd stayed stateside. The Hornets were the defending state champs, and were riding a 4-game win streak over East over the previous 4 seasons, their best run of success against a team that otherwise has a strong record against them in the 2-class era. They'd narrowly won a regular season meeting, and had had a stronger season to date. I wouldn't really call it an upset of any magnitude given East's potential and how they were playing at the time, but I think it's hard to argue that East had a clear talent edge.
I am of course going to have to respond to this one, Im just not seeing it.

First off, Edina I believe only had 9 D1 players not 10. I assumed you counted Reno, but he was out all year and did not play a single game.
So I only see 9

Fogerty
Sit
Nanne
Everson
Brauer
Ostile
Nelson
Anderson
Girard

Of those 9 I would subtract 2 since Girard only played 10 games at Air Force before going to play DIII and Anderson played less than 10 games all year and as a sophomore did not play much when he was dressed. I will give you Walker though so lets say 8 D1 players. Only two more than East.
Also, we often use D1 status as a measuring stick, but these were not blue chips D1 prospects for Edina, as only Fogerty and Nanne put up double digits in points for a season at the D1 level. Walker if D1 probably would have had a nice career too, but lots of these guys didn't;t even have 10 points for their whole NCAA career. I will say Everson was a good defenseman at the college level, and probably Ostile too. My point is they were not Lee, Budish or Malmquist like guys. And I think their high school point totals from that season shows that. It is pretty similar to 2013 in that the top point getter was Fogerty at 40 and then Sit and Walker at 31 and 30. Everson at 21 from the blueline is good, but besides that they lacked the scoring that East's top line had.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:50 am

green4 wrote:
karl(east) wrote:
I will disagree somewhat with Green4's take on 2011. East had 6 D-I players, none of whom were seniors, and one of whom was a freshman who didn't play (Beaulieu). Edina had 10 D-I players, 5 of whom were seniors, plus Ben Walker, who probably would've been D-I if he'd stayed stateside. The Hornets were the defending state champs, and were riding a 4-game win streak over East over the previous 4 seasons, their best run of success against a team that otherwise has a strong record against them in the 2-class era. They'd narrowly won a regular season meeting, and had had a stronger season to date. I wouldn't really call it an upset of any magnitude given East's potential and how they were playing at the time, but I think it's hard to argue that East had a clear talent edge.
I am of course going to have to respond to this one, Im just not seeing it.

First off, Edina I believe only had 9 D1 players not 10. I assumed you counted Reno, but he was out all year and did not play a single game.
So I only see 9

Fogerty
Sit
Nanne
Everson
Brauer
Ostile
Nelson
Anderson
Girard

Of those 9 I would subtract 2 since Girard only played 10 games at Air Force before going to play DIII and Anderson played less than 10 games all year and as a sophomore did not play much when he was dressed. I will give you Walker though so lets say 8 D1 players. Only two more than East.
Also, we often use D1 status as a measuring stick, but these were not blue chips D1 prospects for Edina, as only Fogerty and Nanne put up double digits in points for a season at the D1 level. Walker if D1 probably would have had a nice career too, but lots of these guys didn't;t even have 10 points for their whole NCAA career. I will say Everson was a good defenseman at the college level, and probably Ostile too. My point is they were not Lee, Budish or Malmquist like guys. And I think their high school point totals from that season shows that. It is pretty similar to 2013 in that the top point getter was Fogerty at 40 and then Sit and Walker at 31 and 30. Everson at 21 from the blueline is good, but besides that they lacked the scoring that East's top line had.
Right, I did have Reno there. But if you're going to subtract Anderson from Edina for not playing much that season, you also need to subtract Beaulieu from East, so the gap in D-I players is 3. Edina also had three NHL draft picks to East's one, and Fogarty went higher than Toninato, though I suppose we could argue about how much Nanne deserved that pick. Toninato and Randolph are the only two Hounds that really have had highly productive post-HS careers. (And Beaulieu now, but again, we're not counting him.) I'll grant that the talent plus the chemistry on East's top line is on the whole superior to what Edina had, and that their non-D-I depth players were probably better than those of the Hornets, but especially when you factor in their youth, I think it's very hard to look at all of this and say East was clearly a more skilled team than Edina. That East team wouldn't even have been seeded at State if Hill and Maple Grove hadn't lost on the last night of sections.

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