Roseau

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jdh
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Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:10 pm

Roseau

Post by jdh » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:00 pm

I heard via the grapevine that many of the folks up in Roseau would like to see the Rams move to Single A.

mulefarm
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:01 am

Post by mulefarm » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:07 pm

In all honesty, they probably should.

northwoods oldtimer
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:01 pm

Re: Roseau

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:01 am

jdh wrote:I heard via the grapevine that many of the folks up in Roseau would like to see the Rams move to Single A.
Man is that sad news :(

Hockey in the north is DYING

jdh
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:10 pm

Post by jdh » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:33 am

I wonder if Elk River would be moved back into Section 8 again. They were there a while back.

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2255
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:00 am

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:57 am

One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.

zamboniexhaustinhaler
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:50 pm

Post by zamboniexhaustinhaler » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:28 am

grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.

northwoods oldtimer
Posts: 2142
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:01 pm

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:35 am

zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.
Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2255
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:00 am

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:37 am

zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.

[/quote

I agree that it is a factor but I feel that Roseau will always find a way to overcome that.

mulefarm
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Post by mulefarm » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:41 am

I wonder what the cost is for a Bantam player in Roseau?

7TIMECHAMPS
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Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:53 am

Just my thoughts here being relatively close to the situation. My guess is Roseau will be A within 5 years. A few different factors contribute to this. Numbers are down. My guess is high school enrollment is down 25% or so from 10 years ago. Also, the trend of players leaving hurts Roseau more than other programs because of the limititation of depth. There are only so many athletes in a class of 40 boys. The last one that a lot of people don’t talk about around here is that we lost our coaching consistency at the youth level. Dick Johnson coached PeeWees for decades(I want to say 40 years). Is it a coincidence that we have sent one peewee team to state since 06?( I want to say his last year as head coach was 05). Replace that with parent coaches(some of which only care about their kid and then pull that kid from the program). These stats may not be exact but if not they’re very close. Add them all up and you can see why they don’t have teams that they did. That being said they will still have a team that is competitive most night in AA for a while. But the days of regular tourney trips and state championships are in the rear view mirror. If they come again it will be some time from now.

grindiangrad-80
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:00 am

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:02 am

Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.

That is a nationwide situation in every sport. In my opinion, parent involvement in all sports has created a totally different dynamic. In the old days, kids just showed up and played without much fanfare. Any kid that was interested was involved regardless of his family's financial situation. By the time they got to high school age there was a pretty big pool of kids to make a varsity team.

Now, the parent coaches are picking the teams at the grade school level in many cases. That is fine for the high end talent, they would be there under any circumstance, but the late bloomer kids are long gone by this time. Looking back, most of the great teams had kids on the team who wouldn't be there in todays situation. JMO.

grindiangrad-80
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:00 am

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:45 am

Another telltale sign that parent involvement has changed things is adult leagues in all sports.

Softball leagues were huge with the 18-40 crowd. Now, at least here in the Green Bay area, adult leagues and tournaments have all but dried up.

Bottom line- eliminating kids at an early age from participation is creating less interest.

We brought a team from down here up to Tall Timber Days in GR from 1984-2012 or so. That tournament went from a 48 team men's bracket and 24 women's bracket to nothing now.

When I was a kid (and an adult) I couldn't get enough of sports. I don't believe that is the case anymore for the average person.

kniven
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Location: Esko

Post by kniven » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:38 am

mulefarm wrote:In all honesty, they probably should.
I totally agree

goldy313
Posts: 2957
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 6:56 pm

Post by goldy313 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:08 am

northwoods oldtimer wrote:
zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.
Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.
No, not just in the North.....Minneapolis is a prime example......not that Austin was ever a hockey "power" but in Austin they have become, more truthfully, reemerged on the talents of Sudanese kids a basketball power. The Sudanese aren't a traditional basketball society but basketball attracted these kids. Hockey needs to figure out why, and how to attract these athletes. Or it is doomed to be a fringe sport like figure skating.... top talent but a low base.

As a state we are no longer getting immigrants from Nordic countries. The sooner hockey comes to grips with this the better.

zamboniexhaustinhaler
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:50 pm

Post by zamboniexhaustinhaler » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:33 am

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:Just my thoughts here being relatively close to the situation. My guess is Roseau will be A within 5 years. A few different factors contribute to this. Numbers are down. My guess is high school enrollment is down 25% or so from 10 years ago. Also, the trend of players leaving hurts Roseau more than other programs because of the limititation of depth. There are only so many athletes in a class of 40 boys. The last one that a lot of people don’t talk about around here is that we lost our coaching consistency at the youth level. Dick Johnson coached PeeWees for decades(I want to say 40 years). Is it a coincidence that we have sent one peewee team to state since 06?( I want to say his last year as head coach was 05). Replace that with parent coaches(some of which only care about their kid and then pull that kid from the program). These stats may not be exact but if not they’re very close. Add them all up and you can see why they don’t have teams that they did. That being said they will still have a team that is competitive most night in AA for a while. But the days of regular tourney trips and state championships are in the rear view mirror. If they come again it will be some time from now.
Agreed. And this applies to most every town in the area. I've also notice a just plain growing lack of interest in hockey for various reasons in the area; cost and your points being some of them.

Regarding cost, ironic that a sport once solidly based in working class ranks now has an elitist type tag around it felt by many.

northwoods oldtimer
Posts: 2142
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:01 pm

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:50 am

goldy313 wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:
zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.
Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.
No, not just in the North.....Minneapolis is a prime example......not that Austin was ever a hockey "power" but in Austin they have become, more truthfully, reemerged on the talents of Sudanese kids a basketball power. The Sudanese aren't a traditional basketball society but basketball attracted these kids. Hockey needs to figure out why, and how to attract these athletes. Or it is doomed to be a fringe sport like figure skating.... top talent but a low base.

As a state we are no longer getting immigrants from Nordic countries. The sooner hockey comes to grips with this the better.
All thanks to progressives sitting in the capital and lutheran social services.

zooomx
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:34 pm

Post by zooomx » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:51 pm

I don't think hockey is dying up north. Part of the issue is hockey is getting so much stronger in many areas. Hard for Roseau with a max of 2 teams at each level to compete with teams that have 3-5 teams at each level. Grand Rapids, Duluth, Hermantown, Moorhead, etc are all doing fine, but the smaller towns struggle. You can no longer have success with 3-4 really strong players and 10-12 good, but not great players. They are competing with much deeper teams.

Roseau probably should go A, in which they compete with other teams that don't have the depth they run up against in AA.

The advantage Northern teams have had in the past is the amount of outdoor ice in which their players could go out and play for FUN, getting more ice touches and developing the creativity on ice that many other communities can't. It is difficult for many towns to compete with the year round AAA, and off ice training facilities you see in the metro and other large Minnesota towns. If it were me, and I was up north, I would encourage youth skaters to play tons of pond hockey (which is not expensive at all). Trying to play year round hockey up north is what is making it expensive. It's doable to compete, but it's more of an uphill battle than what schools in the metro see with their numbers, their access to training facilities, and the reduced travel costs of being around so many other quality teams.

Joe2015
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:50 pm

Post by Joe2015 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:38 pm

grindiangrad-80 wrote:Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.

That is a nationwide situation in every sport. In my opinion, parent involvement in all sports has created a totally different dynamic. In the old days, kids just showed up and played without much fanfare. Any kid that was interested was involved regardless of his family's financial situation. By the time they got to high school age there was a pretty big pool of kids to make a varsity team.

Now, the parent coaches are picking the teams at the grade school level in many cases. That is fine for the high end talent, they would be there under any circumstance, but the late bloomer kids are long gone by this time. Looking back, most of the great teams had kids on the team who wouldn't be there in todays situation. JMO.
Unfortunately this is true for almost all sports, not just hockey.

My wife's cousins just finished high school were they played basketball: her aunt was saying even that isn't cheap anymore.

goldy313
Posts: 2957
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 6:56 pm

Re: Roseau

Post by goldy313 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:53 pm

northwoods oldtimer wrote:
jdh wrote:I heard via the grapevine that many of the folks up in Roseau would like to see the Rams move to Single A.
Man is that sad news :(

Hockey in the north is DYING
Not only in the North.....
Rochester youth hockey feeds 4 high schools, they did not field a bantam AA team this year. Their only bantam A team was seeded 8th in the district 9 tournament and went 0-2 losing to Dodge County and New Ulm.

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:43 am

Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:58 pm

northwoods oldtimer wrote:
goldy313 wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:
zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.
Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.
No, not just in the North.....Minneapolis is a prime example......not that Austin was ever a hockey "power" but in Austin they have become, more truthfully, reemerged on the talents of Sudanese kids a basketball power. The Sudanese aren't a traditional basketball society but basketball attracted these kids. Hockey needs to figure out why, and how to attract these athletes. Or it is doomed to be a fringe sport like figure skating.... top talent but a low base.

As a state we are no longer getting immigrants from Nordic countries. The sooner hockey comes to grips with this the better.
All thanks to progressives sitting in the capital and lutheran social services.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day and I've been up since 4:30.

Goose21
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:31 pm

Post by Goose21 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:31 am

zooomx wrote:I don't think hockey is dying up north. Part of the issue is hockey is getting so much stronger in many areas. Hard for Roseau with a max of 2 teams at each level to compete with teams that have 3-5 teams at each level. Grand Rapids, Duluth, Hermantown, Moorhead, etc are all doing fine, but the smaller towns struggle. You can no longer have success with 3-4 really strong players and 10-12 good, but not great players. They are competing with much deeper teams.

Roseau probably should go A, in which they compete with other teams that don't have the depth they run up against in AA.

The advantage Northern teams have had in the past is the amount of outdoor ice in which their players could go out and play for FUN, getting more ice touches and developing the creativity on ice that many other communities can't. It is difficult for many towns to compete with the year round AAA, and off ice training facilities you see in the metro and other large Minnesota towns. If it were me, and I was up north, I would encourage youth skaters to play tons of pond hockey (which is not expensive at all). Trying to play year round hockey up north is what is making it expensive. It's doable to compete, but it's more of an uphill battle than what schools in the metro see with their numbers, their access to training facilities, and the reduced travel costs of being around so many other quality teams.
This is right on point. The current situation favors those programs/communities that can pull in larger numbers and have more access to resources and development.

In 8AA Moorhead has been the standard bearer and STMA is establishing itself in similar fashion With the continued growth of Brainerd and the likely emergence of other southern programs, Roseau (and eventually Bemidji as well) is faced with a tough decision. Across the North at the PWAA and BAA East Moorhead, Hermantown, and Rapids are stacked pretty much every year. Throw in a dominant Cloquet Bantam group , an always tough Brainerd program, the success rate against them and it does have to raise some questions about the future.

Geographically, there isn’t a true AA program within 3 hours.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

MNHockeyFan
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Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:28 am

Post by MNHockeyFan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:29 am

So basically we have our answer:
Hockey as a sport has grown to be very expensive, too expensive for too many. So much so, that to reverse the trend and continue the tradition, the relatively few remaining wealthier families in our northern communities need to produce more hockey-playing offspring. And then fund them to assure that they keep pace to the improvement that the various off-season training programs widely available in the cities promise to deliver (for a price, of course!).

I think the same argument could be made for many families in the cities, and in their inner-ring suburbs, which face an additional obstacle of immigrant migration with no desire for their offspring to even take up the sport of hockey (regardless of cost). For these communities/schools, which also must deal with ever-declining numbers of families that can afford the cost of their kids to remain in their programs, there is even less hope of ever returning to whatever hockey success they've had in the past.

So it's not just a small town/ school dilemma. City and inner-ring suburbs must deal with the same issues, and more.

goldy313
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 6:56 pm

Post by goldy313 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:50 am

Meh.....

Sports have become a year around endeavor. Honestly, aside from football, cross country, and track you had better pick your sport by the 6th grade. In SE Minnesota certain communities have year around sports now, softball and volleyball chief among them. If the coach is not a teacher it is worse. Even then you have schools like Kasson and Stewartville that have been repremanded by the MSHSL for rules violations but don't care and continue the same practice with the same people in charge....... That is the society in which we live, cheat.....get caught....but do not care because the pressure is on winning no matter the cost. Heck, try to figure out how old wrestlers are at the state tournament.....good luck. There is a Minnesota high school kid who is a true Sophomore in the NCAA tournament who is 24, that means he was 22 in high school......did the MSHSL care? Not really, no. Heck they celebrated him.

Unless we as the public start holding our schools and the MSHSL accountable for their own rules nothing will change. We won't because winning is all that really matters.

nu2hockey
Posts: 570
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:19 am

Post by nu2hockey » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:18 am

goldy313 wrote: There is a Minnesota high school kid who is a true Sophomore in the NCAA tournament who is 24, that means he was 22 in high school......

No it doesn't.....

northwoods oldtimer
Posts: 2142
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:01 pm

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:01 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:
goldy313 wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:
zamboniexhaustinhaler wrote:
grindiangrad-80 wrote:One of the Roseau posters had a good post on the Hermantown thread. He said that hockey success is cyclical and I agree with him. Just because a team has a great run for a few years doesn't mean it will last forever. The Rams will have their ups and downs but as long as the economy in that area remains stable they will be fine. The decline in the hockey success on The Range is directly related to the mines. Totally different circumstance than up on the border.

Look at Greenway for example. They were a power in the one class era. They produced some of the all time greats in Minnesota history. Then they hit a stretch of tough times and there was even talk of the program not continuing. Then they got things rolling again and now are not just competitive but are very good. It would be interesting to know what may have happened in St. Paul if they could have got past Hermantown. IMHO the Raiders would have been a tough out in 7AA.

I guess my point is that there will be be ebbs and flows but I would bet my right nut that Roseau will be back at the X in the future and conversations like this will be forgotten.

Just my 2 cents.
The economy isn't the problem. The ever increasing cost of hockey is.
Isn't that the truth. Cost is ridiculous this day in age. Keeps so many good athletes completely out of the sport. Especially up north.
No, not just in the North.....Minneapolis is a prime example......not that Austin was ever a hockey "power" but in Austin they have become, more truthfully, reemerged on the talents of Sudanese kids a basketball power. The Sudanese aren't a traditional basketball society but basketball attracted these kids. Hockey needs to figure out why, and how to attract these athletes. Or it is doomed to be a fringe sport like figure skating.... top talent but a low base.

As a state we are no longer getting immigrants from Nordic countries. The sooner hockey comes to grips with this the better.
All thanks to progressives sitting in the capital and lutheran social services.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day and I've been up since 4:30.
Thanks, forgot to add Catholic charities :P

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