2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

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InThePipes
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by InThePipes » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:08 am

goaliedad31 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:41 pm
Sort of interesting with all the talk about missing Spring break and HP forcing kids to show up or not make it when there are many kids missing part of this weekend's tryouts due to Prom. Missing for prom is ok, but not for Spring break? Seems odd.
How many are missing?

goaliedad31
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by goaliedad31 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:47 am

I know of at least 6

HockeyCrazy1970
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by HockeyCrazy1970 » Wed May 01, 2019 7:52 pm


6AAGuy
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by 6AAGuy » Thu May 02, 2019 10:06 am

you never know what goes into the selection, but it appears they may have worked hard to not overweight metro area, particularly at 16s where there were some notable absences from metro given what I saw on the ice this weekend. 17s seem a lot of the same old/same old.

InThePipes
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by InThePipes » Thu May 02, 2019 10:13 am

6AAGuy wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:06 am
you never know what goes into the selection, but it appears they may have worked hard to not overweight metro area, particularly at 16s where there were some notable absences from metro given what I saw on the ice this weekend. 17s seem a lot of the same old/same old.
Anyone previously involved willing to explain the process at some level? Always a lot of speculation around the rink about factors outside of the actual evaluators such as USA Hockey's influence, other ties & relationships with MN Hockey, etc.

6AAGuy
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by 6AAGuy » Thu May 02, 2019 10:34 am

It does seem to help when kids have a coach there, involved, and pushing for them during selection. Not sure anyone would fully admit that, however. Would also seem plausible that an advisor or some other influential relationship--either at MN hockey level or USA Hockey level--would also have an impact--particularly as the funnel gets narrowed from district/section teams to 54s, and expecially from 54s to Nationals. At that point all of the kids are so talented/fast/strong that there are only a few real standouts. The rest could be drawn from a hat.
At the end the kids don't have any idea what they did/didn't do that caused them to not advance--and that's a part that MN Hockey could really improve upon with very little effort.

yesiplayedhockey
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Thu May 02, 2019 11:28 am

It's an "evaluation" without any evaluation "after the fact." The list comes out and it's over. USA has some influence with the 15's but probably stays out of it for the 16's and 17's unless they truly have someone in their sights for next years NDTP team. The kids leave the weekend not knowing why they weren't picked but in hindsight maybe that's a good thing. No two scouts see a kid similar..Think about it...If you see one kid coming down the ice trying to stickhandle thru the D and always fail...One scout/evaluator may say "low IQ or selfish" and another scout will say "love his determination and persistence". Who's right...they both are...Who's wrong...they both are.

There's no doubt coaches, advisers and some other things all have an influence with Minnesota Hockey on who gets chosen. Top kids get left behind every year for multiple reasons.

Someday someone will publish an article about all the "back room' deals that are cut in youth hockey. If you're in the sport long enough you will no doubt experience both ends of this process.

muckandgrinder65
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by muckandgrinder65 » Thu May 02, 2019 8:43 pm

U17 forward from Mankato East (white team) was noticeable and very fast.
I was thinking he had a a shot at Nattys.
Never seen play before-

bardown27
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by bardown27 » Thu May 02, 2019 9:41 pm

muckandgrinder65 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:43 pm
U17 forward from Mankato East (white team) was noticeable and very fast.
I was thinking he had a a shot at Nattys.
Never seen play before-
He’s actually a Mankato West kid. Brody Lucas.

InThePipes
Posts: 329
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by InThePipes » Thu May 09, 2019 3:43 pm

612hockeytown wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:32 pm
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:49 am
Regarding the value of HP 15, 16, 17, 18 and Seniors... many posters are correct that it’s unnecessarily expensive, a fundraiser, less important than family time, poorly timed in the spring, etc. However, it is also far from useless. The spring festival and final 54 are filled with NAHL and USHL scouts and D1 coaches. I know of multiple players who have had their breakout during this time, have been first noticed, or have done well enough to tip the scale from being “looked at” to approached and offered scholarships from D1 schools. Could these things have happened if they didn’t do HP? Sure, probably, maybe. When coaches and scouts attend high school season games, they are almost always watching a specific player, and not necessarily looking for the “next” player. Yes, they sometimes still catch their eye on a new one, but not often. Additionally, these things build on themselves. Success in HP very much helps chances of making Elite League, Model Camp (not as prestigious these days), NAHL and USHL team tryout camps, and for the 16s especially the USHL draft.

There are some very legitimate gripes about the selection process for teams depending on section, it’s overpriced, and as I said above, it is not so necessary that one needs to change their family vacation. It is possible though that those are true AND it can be very helpful for those who do participate.
Model camp is garbage since Potulny left imo.

I agree 15/16/17s is good for exposure IF you make it to 54s or St. Cloud (15s). The spring festival is less scouted. NCAAs are in full force as are the final weeks of the USHL / NAHL seasons. Some go though. My comment is more about 18s / Seniors - Ted Brill Great 8 is a huge fundraiser with little to gain. 4 games for $200/300 - yikes. You might get some exposure - it isn’t a good value.

Anyone have any insight into Model Camp going forward?

puckluck
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by puckluck » Fri May 24, 2019 11:11 am

The real shame with MN Hockey’s HP program is the money they rake in from families all over the state who will never have a shot at making it to National Camp no matter how well they perform at the tryout. The hockey elites, and by that I mean those with influence in MN Hockey, will always get the spots. It’s so bad now that people just admit it during the tryouts. One player overheard a coach during the first 17 festival saying they already made their picks. And at the 17s Final 54s, a player himself was telling other players in the locker room he already knew he was going to National Camp before the weekend was over.
The reality is kids who pay the money, work hard and perform at the tryout will never be able to compete with the kids who have been pre-selected by the elites. Those pre-selected players don’t even have to perform because they know they are locked in. This year’s 17 results especially support that statement:
3 of the 5 D selected had 0 pts
2 forwards had 0 pts
1 forward had 1 pt
3 forwards had 2 pts
If you’re truly the best talent in the state – you should be able to do better in 3 games on the stat sheet than this year’s crop. Many other players had a much better showing throughout the tryout weekends than some of those selected. But as we see every year, players who have a successful tryout rarely take a spot from the preordained players. MN Hockey should pull the kids out of the tryout that they will send no matter how they perform and have a real tryout for everyone else. Until that happens, families are spending $500+ for a "fair non-biased evaluation process" (HP website) but the elites make sure that's never going to be a true statement.

InThePipes
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by InThePipes » Fri May 24, 2019 11:57 am

Throwin' haymakers in the first post...this board's been dead all week, maybe this will spark some interest on a rainy pre-holiday Friday afternoon :)

I don't know enough about what goes on behind closed doors in the evaluator area to have an opinion, for the most part I think the National Camp picks have been acceptable in recent years. I'm more often surprised by the players that didn't make it out of the section tryout and some of those that are selected for 54's.

InThePipes
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by InThePipes » Fri May 24, 2019 12:02 pm

goaliedad31 wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:47 am
I know of at least 6
Did any of these still make it to National Camp?

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Fri May 24, 2019 12:26 pm

puckluck wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:11 am
The real shame with MN Hockey’s HP program is the money they rake in from families all over the state who will never have a shot at making it to National Camp no matter how well they perform at the tryout. The hockey elites, and by that I mean those with influence in MN Hockey, will always get the spots. It’s so bad now that people just admit it during the tryouts. One player overheard a coach during the first 17 festival saying they already made their picks. And at the 17s Final 54s, a player himself was telling other players in the locker room he already knew he was going to National Camp before the weekend was over.
The reality is kids who pay the money, work hard and perform at the tryout will never be able to compete with the kids who have been pre-selected by the elites. Those pre-selected players don’t even have to perform because they know they are locked in. This year’s 17 results especially support that statement:
3 of the 5 D selected had 0 pts
2 forwards had 0 pts
1 forward had 1 pt
3 forwards had 2 pts
If you’re truly the best talent in the state – you should be able to do better in 3 games on the stat sheet than this year’s crop. Many other players had a much better showing throughout the tryout weekends than some of those selected. But as we see every year, players who have a successful tryout rarely take a spot from the preordained players. MN Hockey should pull the kids out of the tryout that they will send no matter how they perform and have a real tryout for everyone else. Until that happens, families are spending $500+ for a "fair non-biased evaluation process" (HP website) but the elites make sure that's never going to be a true statement.
Just saying this has “dad whose kid got cut” written all over it. Sorry if that isn’t true, just seems that way.

thefatcat
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by thefatcat » Fri May 24, 2019 1:00 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:26 pm
puckluck wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:11 am
The real shame with MN Hockey’s HP program is the money they rake in from families all over the state who will never have a shot at making it to National Camp no matter how well they perform at the tryout. The hockey elites, and by that I mean those with influence in MN Hockey, will always get the spots. It’s so bad now that people just admit it during the tryouts. One player overheard a coach during the first 17 festival saying they already made their picks. And at the 17s Final 54s, a player himself was telling other players in the locker room he already knew he was going to National Camp before the weekend was over.
The reality is kids who pay the money, work hard and perform at the tryout will never be able to compete with the kids who have been pre-selected by the elites. Those pre-selected players don’t even have to perform because they know they are locked in. This year’s 17 results especially support that statement:
3 of the 5 D selected had 0 pts
2 forwards had 0 pts
1 forward had 1 pt
3 forwards had 2 pts
If you’re truly the best talent in the state – you should be able to do better in 3 games on the stat sheet than this year’s crop. Many other players had a much better showing throughout the tryout weekends than some of those selected. But as we see every year, players who have a successful tryout rarely take a spot from the preordained players. MN Hockey should pull the kids out of the tryout that they will send no matter how they perform and have a real tryout for everyone else. Until that happens, families are spending $500+ for a "fair non-biased evaluation process" (HP website) but the elites make sure that's never going to be a true statement.
Just saying this has “dad whose kid got cut” written all over it. Sorry if that isn’t true, just seems that way.
It very well may be a ticked off father...but what he stated is more often than not true.

I got to hear how the sausage is made from one of our association coaches during the HP 14's and 15's process. Basically, if you want your kid to make it...you'd better make sure your association has a lot of coaches / board members volunteer for the evaluation process. Case in point...HP 14's in D3 :roll:

OldManRiver
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by OldManRiver » Fri May 24, 2019 3:33 pm

Do you think this is a more recent development, or has it gotten worse...

I'm hearing this kind of talk more frequently than I used to (which is of course anecdotal because I have a limited network of hockey folks) and know firsthand two families who have had players skip the process altogether - and they were players who had participated in the past but just didn't try out this year.

InThePipes
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by InThePipes » Sat May 25, 2019 7:39 am

As we all know, there is some level of politics in essentially everything in life that involves another person and if it's a flip of the coin then little Bobby is probably going to get the nod at the end, that's life. I don't know of too many cases where I've thought "whoa, I can't believe Bobby made it and Jimmy didn't, it had to be because his dad knows the coach/evaluator". This has probably been posted before, but take a look at this article:

https://www.neutralzone.net/mens/2019/0 ... outs-life/

Different evaluators watch the same thing and form a very different opinion.

yesiplayedhockey
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Sat May 25, 2019 9:38 am

kids getting told they are going to NY before the tryouts are finished
Coach calling Minnesota hockey after their kid doesn't get picked and gets him back in
The leading scorer from the tryout getting left off the list to NY
A kid not even at the tryouts still making it to NY
Forwards with ZERO points making it

Just a few examples I've seen over the many years of following it

It never has been a talent contest... it's more of a popularity contest.

O-townClown
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by O-townClown » Sun May 26, 2019 12:31 am

InThePipes wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:39 am
This has probably been posted before, but take a look at this article:

https://www.neutralzone.net/mens/2019/0 ... outs-life/

Different evaluators watch the same thing and form a very different opinion.
That is a great article.
Be kind. Rewind.

Yoopskater
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by Yoopskater » Sun May 26, 2019 1:19 pm

Very interesting. An inexact science for sure.

thefatcat
Posts: 187
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by thefatcat » Sun May 26, 2019 3:40 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 12:31 am
InThePipes wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:39 am
This has probably been posted before, but take a look at this article:

https://www.neutralzone.net/mens/2019/0 ... outs-life/

Different evaluators watch the same thing and form a very different opinion.
That is a great article.
While I agree with the article when it's in a neutral setting (trying out for a traveling team, high end team, etc)...at the district level for HP it is a complete joke how teams are selected. When one association has 10-11 out of 15 skaters something is fishy, when said association loads up the evaluator pool with all of their own coaches of course they're going to push their own kids on to the team. They don't even bother to mask the bias.

Slap Shot
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Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by Slap Shot » Mon May 27, 2019 8:55 am

thefatcat wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:00 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:26 pm
puckluck wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:11 am
The real shame with MN Hockey’s HP program is the money they rake in from families all over the state who will never have a shot at making it to National Camp no matter how well they perform at the tryout. The hockey elites, and by that I mean those with influence in MN Hockey, will always get the spots. It’s so bad now that people just admit it during the tryouts. One player overheard a coach during the first 17 festival saying they already made their picks. And at the 17s Final 54s, a player himself was telling other players in the locker room he already knew he was going to National Camp before the weekend was over.
The reality is kids who pay the money, work hard and perform at the tryout will never be able to compete with the kids who have been pre-selected by the elites. Those pre-selected players don’t even have to perform because they know they are locked in. This year’s 17 results especially support that statement:
3 of the 5 D selected had 0 pts
2 forwards had 0 pts
1 forward had 1 pt
3 forwards had 2 pts
If you’re truly the best talent in the state – you should be able to do better in 3 games on the stat sheet than this year’s crop. Many other players had a much better showing throughout the tryout weekends than some of those selected. But as we see every year, players who have a successful tryout rarely take a spot from the preordained players. MN Hockey should pull the kids out of the tryout that they will send no matter how they perform and have a real tryout for everyone else. Until that happens, families are spending $500+ for a "fair non-biased evaluation process" (HP website) but the elites make sure that's never going to be a true statement.
Just saying this has “dad whose kid got cut” written all over it. Sorry if that isn’t true, just seems that way.
It very well may be a ticked off father...but what he stated is more often than not true.

I got to hear how the sausage is made from one of our association coaches during the HP 14's and 15's process. Basically, if you want your kid to make it...you'd better make sure your association has a lot of coaches / board members volunteer for the evaluation process. Case in point...HP 14's in D3 :roll:
How many coaches/board members were part of this process and which associations do they represent? Would be interesting to compare that to the actual results.

thefatcat
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by thefatcat » Mon May 27, 2019 11:10 am

Slap Shot wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:55 am
thefatcat wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:00 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:26 pm


Just saying this has “dad whose kid got cut” written all over it. Sorry if that isn’t true, just seems that way.
It very well may be a ticked off father...but what he stated is more often than not true.

I got to hear how the sausage is made from one of our association coaches during the HP 14's and 15's process. Basically, if you want your kid to make it...you'd better make sure your association has a lot of coaches / board members volunteer for the evaluation process. Case in point...HP 14's in D3 :roll:
How many coaches/board members were part of this process and which associations do they represent? Would be interesting to compare that to the actual results.
I can't speak to exact numbers as I was not involved in the 14's age group for D3 and evaluators would change session to session. What I was told is that the % of evaluators is commensurate with the amount of kids (4/5, 6/8, etc) who made it. It was an eye opener though and now the assoc we're involved in has decided to make an effort to actually send representatives to evaluations moving forward.

Slap Shot
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Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:44 pm

Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by Slap Shot » Tue May 28, 2019 8:19 am

thefatcat wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:10 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:55 am
thefatcat wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:00 pm


It very well may be a ticked off father...but what he stated is more often than not true.

I got to hear how the sausage is made from one of our association coaches during the HP 14's and 15's process. Basically, if you want your kid to make it...you'd better make sure your association has a lot of coaches / board members volunteer for the evaluation process. Case in point...HP 14's in D3 :roll:
How many coaches/board members were part of this process and which associations do they represent? Would be interesting to compare that to the actual results.
I can't speak to exact numbers as I was not involved in the 14's age group for D3 and evaluators would change session to session. What I was told is that the % of evaluators is commensurate with the amount of kids (4/5, 6/8, etc) who made it. It was an eye opener though and now the assoc we're involved in has decided to make an effort to actually send representatives to evaluations moving forward.
Are there no participants without ties to a specific association? Unfortunately those ties will inherently either lead to bias and/or an amount of familiarity that brings with it assumptions and therefore previous successes may lead to overlooking down performances over a single weekend. I don't know if you can ever completely impartial decision makers, but if the bias is legitimately this widespread one way to mitigate would be to have as many 'neutral' party observers as possible.

thefatcat
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:16 pm

Re: 2019 HP U17 or U16 Boys Rosters?

Post by thefatcat » Tue May 28, 2019 2:39 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:19 am
thefatcat wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:10 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:55 am


How many coaches/board members were part of this process and which associations do they represent? Would be interesting to compare that to the actual results.
I can't speak to exact numbers as I was not involved in the 14's age group for D3 and evaluators would change session to session. What I was told is that the % of evaluators is commensurate with the amount of kids (4/5, 6/8, etc) who made it. It was an eye opener though and now the assoc we're involved in has decided to make an effort to actually send representatives to evaluations moving forward.
Are there no participants without ties to a specific association? Unfortunately those ties will inherently either lead to bias and/or an amount of familiarity that brings with it assumptions and therefore previous successes may lead to overlooking down performances over a single weekend. I don't know if you can ever completely impartial decision makers, but if the bias is legitimately this widespread one way to mitigate would be to have as many 'neutral' party observers as possible.
Doesn't appear to be the case in D3, it's almost all coaches or board members from teams participating in D3. I believe it's on a volunteer basis so if your association doesn't send anyone, don't expect to get a kid from your assoc on any of the HP or Tier 1 teams. Someone stated 12 of 15 kids for D3 HP 14's are from OMG (I'm too lazy to google each kid on list to verify). But when the evaluators are almost exclusively from OMG that is how it's going to play out. Perhaps some blame should go to the other assoc's for not participating more with the eval process.

Last Fall for the Tier 1 14's...17 of 21 from OMG and Wayzata. Granted those are by far the two strongest assoc in D3...they also left some really talented kids from rinky dink associations sitting at home in favor of their own bubble kids. I think they took a kid who ended up on Bantam B1 at Wayzata...and the Wayzata Bantam A team was subpar for comparison.

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