Winning Teams/Programs

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:23 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>few here will admit that the high school coaches had a lot to do with planting the youth programs and nuturing them.<hr></blockquote> Why would you suppose that is?

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:05 pm

NP, sorry for not ackowledging your question. Absolutely correct. Its all good stuff. Who cares if you go off topic....whatever it was.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:14 pm

Packerboy, You tell me. The operative phrase that I used is the "few here" - as well spoken and fun as you are (and you are!)- I don't pretend that a few posters speak for the hockey world. But to answer your question. It may be that if you acknowledge just a little bit of a high school contribution then you feel that it's a slippery slope, and you'll have to retreat from your mantra of "high school coaches and programs are irrelevant to the youth program." Thus you dig in your heels on a point that - I believe - the vast majority of knowledgable hockey people know as a given. I've started from a fundamental premise that all those involved in high school hockey need to put something back into youth hockey. The fact that that is so controversial and repugnant to you truly puzzles me. Maybe you think its a sideways argument to rip on private schools. I hope that I have dispelled that by now. I've been apart of a very successful youth program/high school program (if it makes you feel better, I'll say high school coaches!) and have seen it work. It seems that you don't want to respect nor acknowledge that, yet you want us to take your years of experience in your association as the way it works/or has worked everywhere. If you concede the history of involvment between these two entities, then you move to the position of it's "a new world so get over it." No doubt. But my point is that the old model created the hockey culture in this state. What has and will takes its place. Private club hockey? That move may have already begun. Shattuck has an impressive program but I don't get as jacked up for their national tourney as I do for our state tourney! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/16/05 6:19 pm

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:30 pm

I missed you guys today, doggone work gets in the way once in a while. Busy night too, but would like to reply, since the can of worms (sausage, or whatever) is open. Back later.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:43 pm

High school coaches that are involved in their association will in the long run help their programs. Why? Because they know the game, not just know it but can teach it, more often than not they're trained teachers and can deal with kids on a better level than say a car salesman or a painter can. Also they have better knowledge of the game and what kids need to develop to become better hockey players. Now youth coaches have to pass some worthless USA hockey class so they can go teach our kids how to skate around cones...whoopee, we produce some of the best skaters but hockey is going down hill. The fundamentals just aren't there. Rochester's hockey schools used to be run by Gene Sack and Lorne Grosso, no better teachers in this part of the state. Now the same school is run by college kids, it's more or less a baby sitting service where kids skate drills, but never really develop hockey skills. Money got in the way of love for the game. If coaches don't want to put effort into their youth programs, they're going to suffer. When I was a kid it was a thrill to go learn from these guys, Grosso and Sack were larger than life figures; my kids couldn't have told me who the high school coaches were when they played, they never saw them outside of a high school game. It's not about learning the Mayo power play, it's about being taught by good teachers who can get their point across because that's what they know how to do. By the way Lorne Grosso still runs a power skating clinic that is outstanding.

BloomJeffHcky · Post by **BloomJeffHcky** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:37 pm

Not to be a homer or anything but i honestly think we havea good program pretty consistently up here at bloomington jefferson with the credit going to the coaches at the youth level

EREmpireStrikesBack · Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:04 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Not to be a homer or anything<hr></blockquote> Take a look at every post you have made pal... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> Elk River AA State Champions- 2001 Boys & 2004 Girls

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:15 pm

Bart, I already have told you in a number of posts. If you read what I wrote you will see that I am indeed aware that high school coaches typicaly show up once in a while, with or with out some of their players, and make perfunctory appearances at the youth programs.My first post acknowledged that. I have also said that ADs want their coaches to do that because it puts a good face on the local school. I have also said it doesnt do squat for the youth program. I have also said it is impossible for the high school coach to make any material contribution because there arent enough hours in the day. Also attitudes have changed with open enrolment and the emergence of private schools. You have mantained that the youth program depends on the high school and that the high school is vital to youth's success. You have also stated that youth programs, in order to be good ,must have a close working relationshipwit the HS. When I push you for specifics , you point to ancient history. I deal with the here and now, every day. Its the parents who are vital. Its the parents who we depend on. Its the program coaches who make or break us. The high school doesnt do it.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:03 am

The youth hockey tradition in Minnesota - is that we have a lot of players. We produce more good hockey players than any other state, by far. However, we may not be leading in producing the most of the best hockey players. Take a look at the USHL/NAHL rosters, you will see many more players from places other than Minnesota. We will always have the hockey tradition (of producing the most players). However, shouldn't we also be continually improving to develop and keep through High School, more of the best players? When the open enrollment phobics speak, it is not about the average hockey player, it is about the best players. Nobody cares what the average players do. It is the best that we should be willing to help improve. Besides it being their right of freedom to choose (covered that before) where they want to play hockey, it is best for Minnesota hockey that these players play where they choose without hassle from associations or the MSHSL. If these players are willing to leave their friends and play at a different place, they are serious about hockey development. Why hinder that in any way, promote it? If they think it is better for them on another team, they will probably develop further there, than if they are forced to stay at their present team by some USA hockey/MSHSL rules. Rules that are more about bureaucrats making personal choices for others under the name of "fairness" or "level playing fields". Montras that accomplish neither, they just promote mediocrity for all. Packerboy spins this choice as selfishness in his post, listing: I, Me, what's in MY best interest, as the present day motives for a change in team. However, I prefer to focus on the 4th item he lists: how can I get better. The motive is not relevant anyway, what is important is that a player and his family make the choice, not some bureaucrats. However, if you want to focus on selfishness, what about the selfishness of the team losing the best player, or the selfishness of the player whining about not making a team because a better player arrived. Are these players concerned about the best interest of hockey, or their own personal interests? How selfish is that? But it is easy (and politically correct) to criticise already talented players for trying to better themselves. With regard to justifying opportunity, opportunity is what we have in this country, at least until we let bureaucats take it away. There Neut, is your open can of worms. P.S. Finally, what do you hockey traditionalists think of hockey bags with wheels? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... Knowlze</A> at: 12/19/05 12:11 am

Zamman · Post by **Zamman** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:20 am

Hockey bags with wheels are the parents of the 21st century. When I played my parents never and I stress never carried my bag. If I wanted to play then I had to carry my stuff!! Once in a while they might carry my stick, but it was just a branch from the backyard not a piece of gold like today. Just and analogy.... ________________________________ Academy of Holy Angels 2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS! 2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!! GO STARS!!

PAMESH · Post by **PAMESH** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:02 am

Kudos to you Knowllze. You are exactly right.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:13 am

It has NEVER been my contention that high school coaches are the backbone of the youth hockey. If you can find anywhere in my previous posts where I have said that, then I will do a Mea Culpa and admit that I was wrong to suggest that. Many high school coaches contributions go beyond mere "perfunctorary appearances" as you state - and continue to state. You keep saying that - and you are wrong. For example, what would you call high school coaches who help evaluate with tryouts? I watched high school staffs spend 20+ hours a week helping with tryouts. What's vague about that? I've tried to avoid listing names but I could list 7 coaches that I know of personally who put a lot of time in with youth hockey. When I have brought up "ancient history" I believe your response was one of the "oh please spare me" - if I got that wrong then I apologize. It has always been my contention that the very best programs work hand in hand with the high school coaches. It's in eveyone's interests. You're analysis of AD's and youth hockey belies my fundamental point - why would youth hockey folks want to be a part of the hiring process if the high school coach didn't matter? Parents make the show go - no question. And at the end of the day, it's their and their son's decision on where they want to go to school. High school coaches are a vital component to vibrant hockey community - Packerboy, we just disagree on that. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/19/05 1:30 pm

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:19 am

Knowlze, Go skate on the pond by yourself then. Not just once in a while..all the time. The hated bureaucrats that create all these organizations and terrible rules also create the "opportunity" that your freedom riders so deserve... in your estimation. Your freedom riding doesnt rid the world of bureaucrats. It just choses one bureaucrat's team over another because it might be a little better this year. Even the most shallow of the self intersted must see the hypocricsy in that. Even in todays free agent professional sports there are restrictions to protect the organization which creates the opportunity. Your rhetoric about open enrollment somehow improving hockey is empty. There has been way too much success both individually and from an overall standpoint wthout it for that bird to fly. If you want to be for open enrollment , thats fine. But call it what it is. If any level of any sport is concerned about just the best, it wont succeed.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:35 pm

I have a much greater problem with mom's/dad's carrying hockey bags. Why not put your gear on at home and put less stuff in the bag? Do kids need caddies? What's up with hockey backpacks? Are these guys going play some puck or I they going to climb Mount Everest? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/19/05 12:37 pm

hawkfan70 · Post by **hawkfan70** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:42 pm

and what is the deal with stick bags? seriously, a bag for your stick......come on

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:04 pm

We're onto a serious problem here.

MediaGuide · Post by **MediaGuide** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:40 pm

The worst part is when the spoiled brats drag 'em up and down the stairs and make that hideous sound. Parents who carry their kids bags for non-medical reasons should be sterilized at once. The backpack bags are creepy, but at least the kid is getting some exercise.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:38 pm

...skate on the pond by myself...all the time. Am I really the radical one here? Just as Bart is having a difficult time explaining the value of the HS program to youth hockey, you appear to be having difficulty with the argument as to why it is important for hockey to have bureaucrats decide which teams/associations that players can try out for. Organizations have not created the opportunity. Hockey (sports) existed long before the organizations. You are right, these organizations are all about protecting themselves, they have little to do with the best interest of the sport. However, they continue to regulate in the name of "fairness" and "level playing field", and the result is everything but fair and level. You are also correct about the relative success of some individuals and overall in hockey. However, the successes have been despite the MSHSL/association regulations, and due mostly to players personal hard work, but also with innovations by others such as Elite hockey, and AAA teams, to name a few. Open enrollment without bureaucrats is fairness. EVERYONE can open enroll. Not just the Catholics, or players that want to play on Catholic teams, or players with parents able to spend additional money (beyond property tax) on education, or parents willing to move from their house, but EVERYONE. It is not just for the best players, it is available for EVERYONE. How much more "fair" can it be? P.S. With regard to bags with wheels, I am sure they can be also be regulated in the best interest of hockey. Maybe used only by players "in shape", larger players may need to carry their own bags. I am sure the bureaucrats will "level the playing field".

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:50 pm

Absolutely. If you are so above all of this, why do you participate in it? I dont understand people who bad mouth the structure but shop around for the best place to play with in that structure...in the name of freedom. No one forces you to join. Go off by yourself if you want freedom to do what ever you please. To deny that the organizatons such as the MSHSL and Minnesota Hockey have created competitive opportunities and development for people is absurd. Ill give you a chance to take that one back. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckerboy</A> at: 12/19/05 4:54 pm

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:37 pm

I despise bureaucracy as much as the next guy, but there has to be some sort of governing structure. Even the folks who vote with their feet to play AAA to get away from the "too many inferior men who hold superior positions" in some associations are placing themselves under USA Hockey bureaucrats. Knowlze, you make some excellent points as to the very best kids looking for a better development option and it is indeed a sad day when those kids don't believe that option is in their association or in high school hockey - well, it's a sad day for me. My "ancient history" references seemed to produce some pretty dang talented players and that's why I dont' believe it should be dismissed outright. People vote with their feet - or skates - and if they leave one has to ask himself why - and then address it. Is it a "rugged individualism" that rules the day in puckland? Is there any room left for community based hockey? Can the two coexist? I've maintained throughout these posts that the we must continue to ask/debate/argue the question of what is best for development and the preservation of the tradition of high school hockey. If that means that Youth Hockey has to be more self sufficient because high school coaches are too transient, well I can accept that. Packerboy, you may dismiss me as an old fart who pines for days long past - but I'm just trying to look at which model works best for development and the preservation of high school hockey. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/19/05 7:39 pm

Renegade Ram · Post by **Renegade Ram** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:52 pm

Bags with wheels should be banned. I hit this topic a couple of years ago and it was overwhelmingly against. A parent shouldn't carry his kids bag either. For most it's the only weight they'll ever lift besides the X-Box control. Stick bags are stupid, remember the art of packing sticks for the bus in a big bundle that some rookie had to tote before he brought his bag into the rink. Another pet peeve is having a parent or coach in the locker room tying kids skates, if your old enough and good enough to play on a traveling team you should have the where withall to tie your own skates, use a hook if you must but do it yourself. The only piece of equipment I ever carried for my kid was his stick and that was ONLY after a really good game, I didn't have to tell him he played well he knew it when I took his stick, it was one of those secret things between a dad and his player. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... m>Renegade Ram</A> at: 12/19/05 8:53 pm

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:00 pm

More on soft kids, I have a couple of 8th graders who can't tie their own skates becuase it hurts their fingers. They play with loose skates now because I banned their parents from the locker room. I just sat through a youth hockey board meeting that basically decided that it's not our associations job to develop players for the high schools anymore. We need to develop skills so they can be "life long" hockey players. I about threw up. Coaches should be involved with youth development, it's vital to their success. At the University of Minnesota all the major coaches run clinics, obviously one reason is to make more money, but another is to find the kid no one wants or is overlooked. Glenn Mason pulls kids from his camp all the time, Marion Barber III and Mark Setterstrom are two who are or will be in the NFL. They'd have been at some DII college at best without Mason's involvement in their development. Basically to many coaches take such a hands off approach, I'll just work with what I get. Instead they should be finding the Bantam with potential who just hasn't realized it yet and get him to where he can develop it. To many youth hockey teams run on what's in it for me and my kid approach, not what's best for the team, let alone the community. It seems we turned the corner from trying to develop the most kids to only trying to get a very select minority very good. In that way kids are getting turned off more and more and hockey is becoming more and more a game what can you afford and who do you know. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... oldy313</A> at: 12/19/05 10:27 pm

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:17 pm

Don't worry Goldy. I'm sure those lifelong hockey players will love to play in the "friendship bracket" at their next out of town tourney - and of course they will win a few games because they kicked butt on the HEP points.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:19 am

Pb, you read way too much into these posts. I had three boys in youth hockey. Our yougest has some talent and a passion for the game, and presently is working his tail off to play at the next level, and quite frankly as far as God will take him in the great game he loves. He and his brothers all played within the association and high school where we live. Nobody open enrolled, nobdy transferred to a different association, nobody went to Catholic school. What I am trying to communicate is; that IF the present situation was not going the best (for whatever reason), and we (as a family) thought it best to transfer, that it is OUR decision, and not anyone elses. My goal with these posts is to innitiate some thought. To try to be aware and realize what is going on within "The Structure" of present day hockey, and life. Maybe it can't be changed, but it was change that got us where we are at. Regardless, to not realize the situation is ignorance, and to realize it, and put the blinders on and pretend it is ok, is pathetic. I do not claim to know the answers Bart, but I think that good volunteers like yourself, Goldy, Packerboy, and many others on this board are a step in the right direction. I think we just need more of you guys on the ice. Enough for now. Catch ya later. It appears work is going to get in the way again tomorrow. P.S. I don't think wheels are for hockey players either, players CHOICE though.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:17 am

Knowlze, I know that you are presenting a position. I dont mean to imply that you are 'shopping' around. You are offering justification for those that do or would. Give me a little credit. Here is the rub in a nutshell. You (figurativly) want to do what is best for you and you want to accomplish that within an organization. The organization is not and should not be concerned about whats best for you. I am a member of and volunteer work for a youth program. I do what is in the best interest of that program. Not each and every member. The president of our program didnt get up today day and think "hey, I wonder if packerboy and his kid are in the best situation they can be." Bottom line is if you are concerned about your program, you would never agree to any policy that resulted in players leaving it. Never. It isn't in the best interest of the program.

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