2009 advanced 15

sorno82 · Post by **sorno82** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:59 am

Inigo-though the rhetoric can get thick, MinnHock and Mr. Lucia are not advocating what you claim. They warn against, high pressure and excessive hours at the expense of other, highly complimentary activities at a young age.

You really should read the USA hockey ADM (hockey Canada and Europe follow similar programs). It shows the progression from multiple activities as a youngster, to a more specialized approach after they hit puberty. Taking a 2-3 month break is not going to hurt you, but that does not mean playing video's all day instead. Sure you will be rusty the first time back and will get smoked by a team that has been together for months ahead of time. Getting stonger, giving your mind a mental break, and playing another sport will only help in the long run.

Short term benefits are clearly there with non-stop hockey, but chances are long term benefits may be fleeting. Starting to specialize at 15 is probably necessary for most of those who want to gain elite status-not at age 8.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:37 pm

I will give 2 examples of 3 sport athletes who did well and I had the chance to watch while they were growing up. Paul Martin from Elk River and Ben Utech from Hastings played hockey and track got a football scholarship for the U of M and was playing in the NFL as I last remember. Ben is also a very good singer.

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:40 am

greybeard58 wrote:I will give 2 examples of 3 sport athletes who did well and I had the chance to watch while they were growing up. Paul Martin from Elk River and Ben Utech from Hastings played hockey and track got a football scholarship for the U of M and was playing in the NFL as I last remember. Ben is also a very good singer.

Sounds to me like Ben put his football career at risk by continuing to play hockey! Playing 2-3 sports is fine..but if you are a kid that is pretty much guaranteed a full ride for college...I know not many are...you cannot be blamed for specializing and not taking undo risks. Financially speaking..it's stupid.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:48 pm

Nothing wrong with playing multiple sports if that's what the kid wants to do...but if the kid doesn't like other sports and the only organized sport he likes to play is hockey, than that's fine also.

And like another poster said, playing multiple sports doesn't mean that you hang up the skates for 3-4 months. If your goal is to play HS hockey for a large school, you need to train over the summer for hockey. I'm not saying that you need to skate everyday, but you should be getting some ice time in somewhere; whether that be AAA, summer training programs, camps, or spring/fall leagues. In general, the kids who put in the most work during the offseason are the kids who reap the benefits during the season.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:13 pm

Precisely. There are countless examples of multisport athletes. Bo Jackson may have picked up a bat in the winter even though he played a little football. The Elite League prides itself on allowing kids to play football and fall hockey; not one or the other. The only point I'm trying to make is, it is wonderful to be a great hockey player - and also be a great football player, baseball player, tennis player, golfer, whatever - but why continue the illusion that the kids are spending the spring ONLY playing golf, the summer ONLY playing baseball, the fall ONLY playing football - it's OK if they're shooting, stickhandling, getting on the ice a couple times a week

hockeyhawk · Post by **hockeyhawk** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 am

I have sat and read about the topic of playing in multiple sports and agree with some of it and disagree with some of it. The thing that really is crazy is this whole topic got started by people slaying a kid from out of the metro area making it to national select camp. Trust me there is plenty of oppurtunity to get ice time if you do not live in the metro area and enough time to go fishing, play baseball do some golfing and my god even play some video games. These are kids not warriors going to war let them be kids and be happy for the ones who made it and give the people from MN hockey, youth hocky coaches, and parents some credit for developing good hockey players. some one mentioned that if you made it to St.Cloud to the development camp that was a accomplishment, I agree. For the metro hip fans there is some kid in North Minneapolis that could skate circles around some of these kids who never even gets the oppurtunity to play organized sports because they don't have Daddy's Money. I think a lot of you need to come off your high horse and not look at these kids like they are professionals. I think the professionals even take a little time to fish, and golf in the off season. Heck some of them go to prison for a couple of years and still can come back and play pro sports. Yes there is extreme talent out there and yes some of these kids have to work for it to get better but we all know that some of it is a God Given Gift also. Let kids be kids and don't worry about where they come from and don't make comments about them when you know nothing about them and what they do in the off season!!

Hockey Hawk
From out of State Athletics and proud of it

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:48 am

I've come to the conclusion that I'm nuts. I think HH's post is a fantastic example of the rambling, take no stand on an issue, then finish with a 'quit picking on the kids, they should all be congratulated' statement. I obviously don't understand that a kid can play basketball until he's 13, play a year of bantams, then set the school scoring record in high school because his mom and dad were both big and fast; or we are ashamed to recognize kids for working their butts off. I can't get myself to understand the nature over nurture argument, and it maddens me to think that a good work ethic has become the crazy aunt locked in the basement - don't ever speak of it. To me it reeks of misguided attempts to protect our children, "It's not your fault. You can't control your genes. Even if you did get off the couch this year, you really could only aspire for mediocracy, so relax and have another twinkie." It's not about treating them like professionals; it's about teaching them that there are consequences (either punishing or rewarding) for their action or inaction. That used to be the way we taught kids to become grown ups; now it's the 600 pound gorilla. Not long ago we discouraged kids from dreaming of success, "If you're not 6'2" 220 you'll never make it; it's not worth the effort to even try." A couple rule changes and waterbugs are drafted in the first round of the NHL draft and Hoby Baker finalists are smaller than half of the cheerleaders on the ice. I resign to belonging in a cave, a recluse lunatic with crazed ideas of effort being rewarded. Therefore I give up, and, even though it will do them no good unless dad was a Pac 10 decathalete and mom was an Olympic gymnast, I wish all the kids good luck.

Jimbo99 · Post by **Jimbo99** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:50 am

InigoMontoya wrote:I've come to the conclusion that I'm nuts.

I agree.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:10 am

InigoMontoya wrote:I've come to the conclusion that I'm nuts. I think HH's post is a fantastic example of the rambling, take no stand on an issue, then finish with a 'quit picking on the kids, they should all be congratulated' statement. I obviously don't understand that a kid can play basketball until he's 13, play a year of bantams, then set the school scoring record in high school because his mom and dad were both big and fast; or we are ashamed to recognize kids for working their butts off. I can't get myself to understand the nature over nurture argument, and it maddens me to think that a good work ethic has become the crazy aunt locked in the basement - don't ever speak of it. To me it reeks of misguided attempts to protect our children, "It's not your fault. You can't control your genes. Even if you did get off the couch this year, you really could only aspire for mediocracy, so relax and have another twinkie." It's not about treating them like professionals; it's about teaching them that there are consequences (either punishing or rewarding) for their action or inaction. That used to be the way we taught kids to become grown ups; now it's the 600 pound gorilla. Not long ago we discouraged kids from dreaming of success, "If you're not 6'2" 220 you'll never make it; it's not worth the effort to even try." A couple rule changes and waterbugs are drafted in the first round of the NHL draft and Hoby Baker finalists are smaller than half of the cheerleaders on the ice. I resign to belonging in a cave, a recluse lunatic with crazed ideas of effort being rewarded. Therefore I give up, and, even though it will do them no good unless dad was a Pac 10 decathalete and mom was an Olympic gymnast, I wish all the kids good luck.

Well said. Great post.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:15 pm

Hard work and a glass of milk.

They do a body (and a mind) good.

Jimbo99 · Post by **Jimbo99** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:08 pm

elliott70 wrote:Hard work and a glass of milk.

They do a body (and a mind) good.

That's exactly correct. And they are good in and of themselves. "Teaching" kids that is good.

But: Leading kids to believe that "working hard" will neccesarily get them ANYthing (other than the satisfied feeling of full effort) is where the problem comes in sometimes.

Inigo said: "It's not about treating them like professionals; it's about teaching them that there are consequences (either punishing or rewarding) for their action or inaction."

I'd say, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. It remains possible to work one's butt off and get nowhere just as it remains possible, for some, to do relatively nothing and excel.

It's all about choices, not "right and wrong".

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:11 am

Jimbo99 wrote:
elliott70 wrote:Hard work and a glass of milk.

They do a body (and a mind) good.
That's exactly correct. And they are good in and of themselves. "Teaching" kids that is good.

But: Leading kids to believe that "working hard" will neccesarily get them ANYthing (other than the satisfied feeling of full effort) is where the problem comes in sometimes.

Inigo said: "It's not about treating them like professionals; it's about teaching them that there are consequences (either punishing or rewarding) for their action or inaction."

I'd say, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. It remains possible to work one's butt off and get nowhere just as it remains possible, for some, to do relatively nothing and excel.

It's all about choices, not "right and wrong".

I can't believe you just typed that. Are you saying that it's WRONG for kids to believe they can be rewarded for working hard? Better for them to lower the bar of expectations than to shoot for the stars, huh?

"Hey kid - you have no shot at making your HS team, so why bother putting in the work during the offseason." ---is THAT what you would tell your kid?

Better for the kid to not put in the effort to succeed than to have to experience any sort of failure, huh?

With attitudes like that, it's no wonder why countries like China are passing us by. It would seem that they set higher expecatations for their children and it's starting to show.

Jimbo99 · Post by **Jimbo99** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:25 am

muckandgrind wrote:
Jimbo99 wrote:
elliott70 wrote:Hard work and a glass of milk.

They do a body (and a mind) good.
That's exactly correct. And they are good in and of themselves. "Teaching" kids that is good.

But: Leading kids to believe that "working hard" will neccesarily get them ANYthing (other than the satisfied feeling of full effort) is where the problem comes in sometimes.

Inigo said: "It's not about treating them like professionals; it's about teaching them that there are consequences (either punishing or rewarding) for their action or inaction."

I'd say, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. It remains possible to work one's butt off and get nowhere just as it remains possible, for some, to do relatively nothing and excel.

It's all about choices, not "right and wrong".
I can't believe you just typed that. Are you saying that it's WRONG for kids to believe they can be rewarded for working hard? Better for them to lower the bar of expectations than to shoot for the stars, huh?

"Hey kid - you have no shot at making your HS team, so why bother putting in the work during the offseason." ---is THAT what you would tell your kid? Better for the kid to not put in the effort to succeed than to have to experience any sort of failure, huh?

With attitudes like that, it's no wonder why countries like China are passing us by. It would seem that they set higher expecatations for their children and it's starting to show.

No. Read it again. I didn't say that at all. I said that all one can be assured of - is the satisfied feeling of having given it your all.

I've heard too many parents whine and piss and moan about their kid not making the A-team - going over and over how hard they worked and how they had told their kids: "Work hard, good things will happen" etc. etc. and "Now we got screwed!" - Well sorry guys, it doesn't work that way.

Hard work is its own reward. If you don't understand that. You're part of the problem.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:52 am

Jimbo99 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
Jimbo99 wrote: That's exactly correct. And they are good in and of themselves. "Teaching" kids that is good.

But: Leading kids to believe that "working hard" will neccesarily get them ANYthing (other than the satisfied feeling of full effort) is where the problem comes in sometimes.

Inigo said: "It's not about treating them like professionals; it's about teaching them that there are consequences (either punishing or rewarding) for their action or inaction."

I'd say, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. It remains possible to work one's butt off and get nowhere just as it remains possible, for some, to do relatively nothing and excel.

It's all about choices, not "right and wrong".
I can't believe you just typed that. Are you saying that it's WRONG for kids to believe they can be rewarded for working hard? Better for them to lower the bar of expectations than to shoot for the stars, huh?

"Hey kid - you have no shot at making your HS team, so why bother putting in the work during the offseason." ---is THAT what you would tell your kid? Better for the kid to not put in the effort to succeed than to have to experience any sort of failure, huh?

With attitudes like that, it's no wonder why countries like China are passing us by. It would seem that they set higher expecatations for their children and it's starting to show.
No. Read it again. I didn't say that at all. I said that all one can be assured of - is the satisfied feeling of having given it your all.

I've heard too many parents whine and piss and moan about their kid not making the A-team - going over and over how hard they worked and how they had told their kids: "Work hard, good things will happen" etc. etc. and "Now we got screwed!" - Well sorry guys, it doesn't work that way.

Hard work is its own reward. If you don't understand that. You're part of the problem.

What those parents who are whining need to understand is that, while it's true that their kid might have been working hard during the offseason, the kids who made the team may ALSO have been working hard.

I think we are both in agreement, but it sounded as if you were saying that, as parents, we should be lowering the expectations just so the kid's feelings won't get hurt if the end result is that they do make the team. Working hard and failing to achieve can be just as good of a life lesson as succeeding, in itself. What is not right, however, is telling kids to "not bother" because the chances of success are low.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:27 am

I’ll throw out a couple clarifications just for fun.

elliott70 wrote:
Hard work and a glass of milk.

They do a body (and a mind) good.

That's exactly correct. And they are good in and of themselves. "Teaching" kids that is good.

Hard work and milk are not good in and of themselves. What is gained by moving a pile of rock from the north side of the driveway to the south side, and then when the last rock is placed, move the entire pile back to the same spot on the south side? Unless you are training to be a rock pile mover, you have accomplished no good; in fact sore muscles, emotional exhaustions, and mental fatigue (not to mention the opportunity cost of using that time and effort toward a goal) have set you back. Rock moving: not good in and of itself. Hockey analogy: skating Herbies; there is relatively little cardiovascular or muscular advancement from the activity, the kids could have used that time and effort more effectively elsewhere, and they’ve gone backwards as the skating technique breaks down and they learn to conserve energy (coast). Herbies: not good in and of themselves. As for milk, nature engineered it to nourish baby cows, not humans. Humans have fortified it with vitamins and minerals, and it still doesn’t digest efficiently. We have forced the acquired taste on our children; no one grabs a tall glass of milk after a hot afternoon of yard work; no one orders a brat and a 2% at the dome. Milk: not good in and of itself.

But: Leading kids to believe that "working hard" will neccesarily get them ANYthing (other than the satisfied feeling of full effort) is where the problem comes in sometimes.

Working hard will get you something; it will get you better. Isn’t that why they’re there? Whether you are the star on the A team or a new kid to the C team, working hard will help you improve individually and help you to help your team. Teach the kids the correct thing, and then have them work hard at practicing it correctly.

I'd say, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. It remains possible to work one's butt off and get nowhere just as it remains possible, for some, to do relatively nothing and excel.

It’s always true. You need to reassess your definition of “nowhere”. Tom and Huck, barefoot and fishing all summer, are not setting the hockey world on fire. At risk of sounding Marxist, “to do relatively nothing and excel” is an affront to society.

It's all about choices, not "right and wrong".

In most situations there is a choice that is “right” and a choice that is “wrong”.

The point I’m trying to make:
The kids that are being invited to these elite opportunities are working hard.
There are many, many kids working hard that are not being invited - please note that these kids are better than they would have been had they spent the summer reaching Level X of their favorite video game, they will contribute more to their teams, and I believe whole-heartedly that they will enjoy the game to a deeper extent. The coach and parent expectation can’t be “work hard and win”, it might not happen, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t succeeded.
There are many, many kids that do relatively nothing and fail – and quit.
There are many posts alluding to kids that do relatively nothing and succeed – my question is, “where are they?”
There are way, way too many comments made at the association level extolling the virtues of doing relatively nothing – but the expectation is to succeed. The truth is if they aren’t going to work at it they probably aren’t going to get better, they probably aren’t going to succeed, and they probably aren’t going to win. The coach and parent expectation absolutely cannot be “do relatively nothing and win”, that borders on abuse.

davinci · Post by **davinci** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:28 am

InigoMontoya wrote:I’ll throw out a couple clarifications just for fun.

elliott70 wrote:
Hard work and a glass of milk.

They do a body (and a mind) good.

That's exactly correct. And they are good in and of themselves. "Teaching" kids that is good.
Hard work and milk are not good in and of themselves. What is gained by moving a pile of rock from the north side of the driveway to the south side, and then when the last rock is placed, move the entire pile back to the same spot on the south side? Unless you are training to be a rock pile mover, you have accomplished no good; in fact sore muscles, emotional exhaustions, and mental fatigue (not to mention the opportunity cost of using that time and effort toward a goal) have set you back. Rock moving: not good in and of itself. Hockey analogy: skating Herbies; there is relatively little cardiovascular or muscular advancement from the activity, the kids could have used that time and effort more effectively elsewhere, and they’ve gone backwards as the skating technique breaks down and they learn to conserve energy (coast). Herbies: not good in and of themselves. As for milk, nature engineered it to nourish baby cows, not humans. Humans have fortified it with vitamins and minerals, and it still doesn’t digest efficiently. We have forced the acquired taste on our children; no one grabs a tall glass of milk after a hot afternoon of yard work; no one orders a brat and a 2% at the dome. Milk: not good in and of itself.

But: Leading kids to believe that "working hard" will neccesarily get them ANYthing (other than the satisfied feeling of full effort) is where the problem comes in sometimes.
Working hard will get you something; it will get you better. Isn’t that why they’re there? Whether you are the star on the A team or a new kid to the C team, working hard will help you improve individually and help you to help your team. Teach the kids the correct thing, and then have them work hard at practicing it correctly.

I'd say, sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. It remains possible to work one's butt off and get nowhere just as it remains possible, for some, to do relatively nothing and excel.
It’s always true. You need to reassess your definition of “nowhere”. Tom and Huck, barefoot and fishing all summer, are not setting the hockey world on fire. At risk of sounding Marxist, “to do relatively nothing and excel” is an affront to society.

It's all about choices, not "right and wrong".
In most situations there is a choice that is “right” and a choice that is “wrong”.

The point I’m trying to make:
The kids that are being invited to these elite opportunities are working hard.
There are many, many kids working hard that are not being invited - please note that these kids are better than they would have been had they spent the summer reaching Level X of their favorite video game, they will contribute more to their teams, and I believe whole-heartedly that they will enjoy the game to a deeper extent. The coach and parent expectation can’t be “work hard and win”, it might not happen, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t succeeded.
There are many, many kids that do relatively nothing and fail – and quit.
There are many posts alluding to kids that do relatively nothing and succeed – my question is, “where are they?”
There are way, way too many comments made at the association level extolling the virtues of doing relatively nothing – but the expectation is to succeed. The truth is if they aren’t going to work at it they probably aren’t going to get better, they probably aren’t going to succeed, and they probably aren’t going to win. The coach and parent expectation absolutely cannot be “do relatively nothing and win”, that borders on abuse.

...................................................................

PanthersIn2011 · Post by **PanthersIn2011** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:08 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:Working hard will get you something; it will get you better.

I was at the practice tee last night. A guy a few stalls down from me hit two large buckets worth of ugly snap hooks in the time it took me to hit half a bucket.

He was sweating profusely. I think most people observing him, if asked, would say he was working hard.

But I'd be hard pressed to say he was better. In fact, the more balls he hit, the further left his shots went. By the end, he could not keep a ball inside the range.

My point: A good work ethic is certainly a very positive attribute in an athlete. But work has to be properly directed for it to be beneficial. Misguided hard work can actually be detrimental.

Jimbo99's point: (I think I'm interpreting him correctly) Even if this guy next to me takes some lessons and starts practicing more productively, it does not mean that he will eventually be better than Tiger Woods. He can (and should) work to reach his full potential, but there is a point where no amount of additional effort or instruction will make him better than someone else with more talent. So parents should be careful with the quid pro quo's -- instead focus on the process of working hard and the good feeling that comes with it when you're done.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:32 pm

Hard work and milk are not good in and of themselves.

Teach the kids the correct thing, and then have them work hard at practicing it correctly.

Agreed. As I said practicing poorly is detrimental. I would say that sweating isn't the only qualifier of a good work ethic (e.g. breaking a sweat walking to the fridge for that bucket of left over chicken wings). If he took the time to learn the correct mechanics, if he focused on his swing as he practiced - he would get better than he is. No he won't be Tiger, but neither will you; neither will Zach Johnson. If the only goal for a golfer is to be Tiger, then no wonder we're a nation of fat, lazy, quitters; what's the point. For all but one person in any endeavor, you aren't the best, so why in the world would the goal be "to be the best". There are probably near 100 Vice Presidents of something or other at United Health Care in Edina; are they failures because they are not the president. I'm just spitballin' here, but I'd say that more than half are pretty OK with their salaries, cars, homes, hot Edina wives, etc. Perhaps if you'd been standing next to the sweathog 3 summers ago you would have actually had to duck - maybe he's 700% better than he was then, maybe the practice is really paying off.

In human existence everything is quid pro quo. It may be as you say "the good feeling". A runner may run for the endorphin release, for the 3 extra months he'll live, for the fitter body, for the chicks as a result of the body, etc. Forest may have run just to run, but the rest of us have motives for our actions.

play4fun · Post by **play4fun** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:30 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:I've come to the conclusion that I'm nuts.... I resign to belonging in a cave, a recluse lunatic with crazed ideas of effort being rewarded. Therefore I give up...

IM - That was a pretty short sabbatical. Welcome back.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:33 pm

3G in my cave; who'd a thunk it?

Jimbo99 · Post by **Jimbo99** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:10 pm

PanthersIn2011 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:Working hard will get you something; it will get you better.
I was at the practice tee last night. A guy a few stalls down from me hit two large buckets worth of ugly snap hooks in the time it took me to hit half a bucket.

He was sweating profusely. I think most people observing him, if asked, would say he was working hard.

But I'd be hard pressed to say he was better. In fact, the more balls he hit, the further left his shots went. By the end, he could not keep a ball inside the range.

My point: A good work ethic is certainly a very positive attribute in an athlete. But work has to be properly directed for it to be beneficial. Misguided hard work can actually be detrimental.

Jimbo99's point: (I think I'm interpreting him correctly) Even if this guy next to me takes some lessons and starts practicing more productively, it does not mean that he will eventually be better than Tiger Woods. He can (and should) work to reach his full potential, but there is a point where no amount of additional effort or instruction will make him better than someone else with more talent. So parents should be careful with the quid pro quo's -- instead focus on the process of working hard and the good feeling that comes with it when you're done.

Panthers has got it! (BTW which range was that? - Might have been me you were watching.) The focus should be on the enjoyment of it all - the game AND the hard work. The kid shouldn't need to be "pushed" much at all. (If that's what's happening, my prediction would be that it will backfire and be detrimental in the long run.)

It also remains true that the guy at the range could be tutored by Tiger himself and never get better than the guy who golfs 6 times per year, has always had a natural draw and rarely shoots over 90.

And... while I teach my kid to put his all into any endeavor he attempts, there IS a point at which "diminishing returns" are recognized, isn't there? Hockey is the dream. Baseball is not. Yet he plays them both (well). Nowhere near the same effort goes into BB as hockey. (there's not enough time in the day). He knows he will fall back (and has) in the BB world, but accepts it. Is it "wrong" for him to play? I don't think so.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:35 am

He knows he will fall back (and has) in the BB world, but accepts it. Is it "wrong" for him to play? I don't think so.

It sounds like he understands the quid pro quo. Working hard at hockey will help him to be better than he would be if he didn't work hard. Not working hard at baseball will find him falling behind those that do work hard, or back toward the kids that work hard but are much less physically gifted.

From Mirriam-Webster
Main Entry: teach
Pronunciation: \ˈtēch\
Function: verb
1 a : to cause to know something b : to cause to know how c : to accustom to some action or attitude d : to cause to know the disagreeable consequences of some action

hockeyhawk · Post by **hockeyhawk** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:50 am

IntigoMontoya, I'm sorry I got you all worked up. But I can see you been working really hard on you poetry!!!! Jimbo Thank you for saying what he needed to here. I think a lot of you are having brain farts to what hard work is. All I was saying was you were slaying a kid from post before from out of metro area that he dosn't work hard enough to acheive elite status. What does any one know of him???? Well you all know him now. Congradulation IntigoMontoya and others for being poet drill sargents you should all be really proud of yourselfs that a 15 year old kid should do nothing but play hockey 24 hours a day and not enjoy any other pleasures of life. Yes I'm real hockey fan and beleive that the kids that work hard will have success but someone else stated that there are alot of kids who work hard but did not make it. I beleive that way more then the kids who made it to National camp are the top 21 in the state, but congradulations to the kids who did. Come on do any of you go and watch these games. I would not want to have the job of selecting these kids to advance they all work hard to get to St.Cloud and all are really skilled kids. They new out of the gate the top 10. It was the other 11 kids they had to pick. Most of these kid left the camp and went to another tournament that weekend before they went fishing. IntigoMontoya, I know that my post are not as pretty as yours but do you work at your job 24 hours a day? Have you never not made it or not won? I bet you have been the best at what ever you have done in your Life (AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT YOU THINK) I doubt it!! I guess you IntigoMontoya Fans trully believe that the kid that went to NY are the only kids in this state that work hard and the rest just lay around and play video games and eat twinkies ok what ever. Next year in select 16's I bet you all a dollor to a donut that at least 50% of the kids who make it will be someone new. Then Mr. InigoMontoya you can do your riddles about the kids who made in 15's must of not worked hard enough. Your are a work of art InigoMontoya

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:50 am

hockeyhawk wrote:IntigoMontoya, I'm sorry I got you all worked up. But I can see you been working really hard on you poetry!!!! Jimbo Thank you for saying what he needed to here. I think a lot of you are having brain farts to what hard work is. All I was saying was you were slaying a kid from post before from out of metro area that he dosn't work hard enough to acheive elite status. What does any one know of him???? Well you all know him now. Congradulation IntigoMontoya and others for being poet drill sargents you should all be really proud of yourselfs that a 15 year old kid should do nothing but play hockey 24 hours a day and not enjoy any other pleasures of life. Yes I'm real hockey fan and beleive that the kids that work hard will have success but someone else stated that there are alot of kids who work hard but did not make it. I beleive that way more then the kids who made it to National camp are the top 21 in the state, but congradulations to the kids who did. Come on do any of you go and watch these games. I would not want to have the job of selecting these kids to advance they all work hard to get to St.Cloud and all are really skilled kids. They new out of the gate the top 10. It was the other 11 kids they had to pick. Most of these kid left the camp and went to another tournament that weekend before they went fishing. IntigoMontoya, I know that my post are not as pretty as yours but do you work at your job 24 hours a day? Have you never not made it or not won? I bet you have been the best at what ever you have done in your Life (AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT YOU THINK) I doubt it!! I guess you IntigoMontoya Fans trully believe that the kid that went to NY are the only kids in this state that work hard and the rest just lay around and play video games and eat twinkies ok what ever. Next year in select 16's I bet you all a dollor to a donut that at least 50% of the kids who make it will be someone new. Then Mr. InigoMontoya you can do your riddles about the kids who made in 15's must of not worked hard enough. Your are a work of art InigoMontoya

Who said that???

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:13 am

All I was saying was you were slaying a kid from post before from out of metro area that he dosn't work hard enough to acheive elite status.

Not at all. It was originally stated that he just played in the winter. It was then pointed out that he participated in the off season, as well. I don't know how that has slain him.

someone else stated that there are alot of kids who work hard but did not make it.

I said that.

I guess you IntigoMontoya Fans trully believe that the kid that went to NY are the only kids in this state that work hard and the rest just lay around and play video games and eat twinkies ok what ever.

I did not say that.

Your are a work of art InigoMontoya

Thank you. I'm sure you have something from Picasso in mind, but I'm going to imagine you meant Michelangelo's David.

Again, my point really isn't about the kids at all. It is about the parents, the coaches, the posters on this forum, MNH, ... Without shown exception, the kids that excel in MNH hockey are kids that work hard - in season and off season. It is irresponsible of a parent, a coach, an association board member, or MNH to insinuate that an individual or team can excel by going fishing. Too many kids and teams are willing to work past them in the off season. That's not to say these individuals won't succeed - if the goal is to have fun, to get exercise, to develope a life-long love for the game - great. But let's stop kidding ourselves, and especially our children, that the pursuit of hockey excellence in this state is going to come any other way.