Class A Rankings 2-5-12

[Hockey North]

TRF beats a D Marshall team on an off night 4-2 with an empty net goal. Ties a bad Denfeld team 1-1, gets beat by Roseau and they are still being talked about being in the top 3-4??
With the Breck loss to Totino, Marshall should move up to at least 4 and possibly even 3.

[rainier]

TRF beats a D Marshall team on an off night 4-2 with an empty net goal. Ties a bad Denfeld team 1-1, gets beat by Roseau and they are still being talked about being in the top 3-4??
With the Breck loss to Totino, Marshall should move up to at least 4 and possibly even 3.

No way Marshall should be ahead of TRF. They beat them, off night or not, in a recent head-to-head matchup. And an OT loss to a top 20 AA team isn't bad enough to erase that. I'm sure the tie to Denfeld was an off night for TRF.

If people want to argue whether Breck or Marshall should be #4, I can hear that, but TRF is ahead of Marshall at this point for sure.

[Just Checking]

Really? You can't be serious? 3 are for sure WAY better then ANYONE Hermantown has played? OK, so I know that Hermantown easily handled Grand Rapids on the road and Grand Rapids lost by one goal to Edina on the road. quote]

Really? You're going to go with this?

Grand Rapids lost to Hibbing
Hibbing lost to Mayo
Mayo lost to Red Wing
Red Wing lost to Northfield
Northfield lost to New Ulm
New Ulm lost to Marshall
Marshall lost to Luverne
So by my count that make 3 teams in 3A better than Grand Rapids and only 1 goal worse than Edina.

You can play this game forever. Hermantown may be the best team in Class A but their schedule isn't as tough as St. Thomas' by any stretch.[/b]

What I'm going to go with is you can spin it any way you'd like on STA losing 4-5 games every year to top 20 AA schools... please name some they beat? What I do know is Hermantown has beat two Top 20 AA teams on the road. Please let me know the ones STA has beat? Thought so, they get a crack @ #20 Roseau. I see nothing special for SOS past those 4-5 AA games they lose, even laugh at how Tarten ends up on DE schedule to close out their season, but DE won't stay home and play Hermantown or D.Marshall, I guess they need that double digit win. Maybe like STA and their conference foes they beat by double digits every year, Hermantown needs to schedule teams like Ashland twice? Don't forget what looks like Hermantown's possible wins over 9 different top 20 A teams, while STA would have beat 5 didfferent A teams in top 20. Are we still on SOS?

I had to reply because another spin doctor wanted to say how WAY better 3 and maybe 4 teams on STA schedule were then ANYONE Hermantown had played... that was worth ROTFL over! sorry...just had to bring up the simple truth and your spin technique can't even compare as I can tell you have absolutely no clue by the great depth you spent digging for...well, I just don't know, but keep digging.

3 = shattuck, DE, Edina different league then GR. SOS is not even close. If your SOS was in the same area code we would not have anything to talk about other than who is second!!

STA will play 8 games against top 25 teams according to My Hockey Rankings plus a game against shattuck. Hawks will play 4, GR, Roseau, marshal and cloquet. Roseau marshall and cloquet are 23-24-25. Yeah we are still talking SOS. Like I said before SOS hurts in rankings but it hurts more when you come to the tourney.

[HShockeywatcher]

What I'm going to go with is you can spin it any way you'd like on STA losing 4-5 games every year to top 20 AA schools... please name some they beat? What I do know is Hermantown has beat two Top 20 AA teams on the road. Please let me know the ones STA has beat? Thought so, they get a crack @ #20 Roseau. I see nothing special for SOS past those 4-5 AA games they lose, even laugh at how Tarten ends up on DE schedule to close out their season, but DE won't stay home and play Hermantown or D.Marshall, I guess they need that double digit win. Maybe like STA and their conference foes they beat by double digits every year, Hermantown needs to schedule teams like Ashland twice? Don't forget what looks like Hermantown's possible wins over 9 different top 20 A teams, while STA would have beat 5 didfferent A teams in top 20. Are we still on SOS?

I had to reply because another spin doctor wanted to say how WAY better 3 and maybe 4 teams on STA schedule were then ANYONE Hermantown had played... that was worth ROTFL over! sorry...just had to bring up the simple truth and your spin technique can't even compare as I can tell you have absolutely no clue by the great depth you spent digging for...well, I just don't know, but keep digging.

I will repeat this:

The computerized system much respected by this site says otherwise. It's funny how people use that system to support their points but then when convenient they simply ignore it and say SOS doesn't matter.

No one is "spinning" anything. East, Edina and Shattuck are much better than ANYONE on Hermantown's schedule. I'm not making that up, not saying it to make it sound like Hermantown is bad. It's true. Much like East playing rival Rapids close isn't surprising, seeing St Thomas and Hill play close games isn't surprising to me. I'm not dismissing it, though; they are #2 because of it. If the Cadets had beaten Hill both times, or even just the 2nd time, St Thomas would most likely be #1.

You can't beat teams you haven't played.
It seems like you're using LPH's rankings:
STA is 4-0 vs top 10 teams, 2-0 #11.
Hermantown is 5-0 vs top 10 teams, 3-0 vs teams 16-20 and play 14/15 next week.
Both are undefeated against Class A teams. Not much of a way to spin that, although you're trying

I've already done an unbiased comparison:
http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... c&start=25
Take a look, it is rather interesting. They are very close. Not sure why you are still arguing with me; nothing I've said is factually incorrect [unless you disagree that Edina is better than Rapids]. I have Hermantown at #1 because that's where I think they should be; and you are trying to argue with me?

In the CSC teams play each other twice, aside from Simley. I believe two years ago the conference agreed to have Richfield and Simley play teams once and have it count double. Teams wanted to do the same with Sibley, they said no. Sibley is the only team they have beaten by double digits this year. Would they play Sibley once if they could? I bet they would.

It appears the LSC has allowed teams to schedule their opponents how they want; just speculation. Last year the conference champ was 7-1 while their loss was to a 6-1 team. Seems like an odd set up.

You wanna compare schedules; let's do it.
St Thomas' non-conference schedule:
-Duluth Marshall
-Rochester Lourdes
-Cretin
Schwan's Cup (3 games)
-Holy Angels
-Duluth East
-Edina
-Holy Family Catholic
-Breck
-Totino-Grace (section opponent)
-Roseau

Hermantown's non-conference schedule:
-Sauk Rapids-Rice
-Hopkins
-Totino-Grace
-Rogers (section opponent)
-Virgina
Ralph Engelstad (3 games)
-Thief River Falls
-Crookston
-Bottineau
-International Falls
-Grand Rapids
-St Cloud Cathedral (section opponent)
-Monticello
-Bemidji
-New Prague
-Red Wing
-Little Falls
-Hibbing


I hope you can look at these teams and notice a difference. I know some don't like PageStat because it has Hill above Rapids, but it is one of the only two systems out there comparing both classes and it's the most respected.
St Thomas has one team on their schedule outside the top 50, which was one they didn't schedule. Hermantown has 8 outside the top 52, plus Bottineau.

St Thomas is doing everything they can to play good, quality, non-conference competition. Hermantown is not. Period.

[HShockeywatcher]

Looking for opinions on the teams in the 3-10 range...

I have my top 2 figured out, but beyond that, I have a lot of ways I could go. I see reasons for Breck, TRF or TG at #3. Depending on that choice, plenty could follow in many different orders.

Any input would be great.

[TTpuckster]

Looking for opinions on the teams in the 3-10 range...

I have my top 2 figured out, but beyond that, I have a lot of ways I could go. I see reasons for Breck, TRF or TG at #3. Depending on that choice, plenty could follow in many different orders.

Any input would be great.

Sure, just say #3 tie for all 3 team.
Pretty much sums it up anyway.

[blacklung]

What I'm going to go with is you can spin it any way you'd like on STA losing 4-5 games every year to top 20 AA schools... please name some they beat? What I do know is Hermantown has beat two Top 20 AA teams on the road. Please let me know the ones STA has beat? Thought so, they get a crack @ #20 Roseau. I see nothing special for SOS past those 4-5 AA games they lose, even laugh at how Tarten ends up on DE schedule to close out their season, but DE won't stay home and play Hermantown or D.Marshall, I guess they need that double digit win. Maybe like STA and their conference foes they beat by double digits every year, Hermantown needs to schedule teams like Ashland twice? Don't forget what looks like Hermantown's possible wins over 9 different top 20 A teams, while STA would have beat 5 didfferent A teams in top 20. Are we still on SOS?

I had to reply because another spin doctor wanted to say how WAY better 3 and maybe 4 teams on STA schedule were then ANYONE Hermantown had played... that was worth ROTFL over! sorry...just had to bring up the simple truth and your spin technique can't even compare as I can tell you have absolutely no clue by the great depth you spent digging for...well, I just don't know, but keep digging.

I will repeat this:

The computerized system much respected by this site says otherwise. It's funny how people use that system to support their points but then when convenient they simply ignore it and say SOS doesn't matter.

No one is "spinning" anything. East, Edina and Shattuck are much better than ANYONE on Hermantown's schedule. I'm not making that up, not saying it to make it sound like Hermantown is bad. It's true. Much like East playing rival Rapids close isn't surprising, seeing St Thomas and Hill play close games isn't surprising to me. I'm not dismissing it, though; they are #2 because of it. If the Cadets had beaten Hill both times, or even just the 2nd time, St Thomas would most likely be #1.

You can't beat teams you haven't played.
It seems like you're using LPH's rankings:
STA is 4-0 vs top 10 teams, 2-0 #11.
Hermantown is 5-0 vs top 10 teams, 3-0 vs teams 16-20 and play 14/15 next week.
Both are undefeated against Class A teams. Not much of a way to spin that, although you're trying

I've already done an unbiased comparison:
http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... c&start=25
Take a look, it is rather interesting. They are very close. Not sure why you are still arguing with me; nothing I've said is factually incorrect [unless you disagree that Edina is better than Rapids]. I have Hermantown at #1 because that's where I think they should be; and you are trying to argue with me?

In the CSC teams play each other twice, aside from Simley. I believe two years ago the conference agreed to have Richfield and Simley play teams once and have it count double. Teams wanted to do the same with Sibley, they said no. Sibley is the only team they have beaten by double digits this year. Would they play Sibley once if they could? I bet they would.

It appears the LSC has allowed teams to schedule their opponents how they want; just speculation. Last year the conference champ was 7-1 while their loss was to a 6-1 team. Seems like an odd set up.

You wanna compare schedules; let's do it.
St Thomas' non-conference schedule:
-Duluth Marshall
-Rochester Lourdes
-Cretin
Schwan's Cup (3 games)
-Holy Angels
-Duluth East
-Edina
-Holy Family Catholic
-Breck
-Totino-Grace (section opponent)
-Roseau

Hermantown's non-conference schedule:
-Sauk Rapids-Rice
-Hopkins
-Totino-Grace
-Rogers (section opponent)
-Virgina
Ralph Engelstad (3 games)
-Thief River Falls
-Crookston
-Bottineau
-International Falls
-Grand Rapids
-St Cloud Cathedral (section opponent)
-Monticello
-Bemidji
-New Prague
-Red Wing
-Little Falls
-Hibbing


I hope you can look at these teams and notice a difference. I know some don't like PageStat because it has Hill above Rapids, but it is one of the only two systems out there comparing both classes and it's the most respected.
St Thomas has one team on their schedule outside the top 50, which was one they didn't schedule. Hermantown has 8 outside the top 52, plus Bottineau.

St Thomas is doing everything they can to play good, quality, non-conference competition. Hermantown is not. Period.

Below are STA's actual WINS. Who cares how strong your schedule is;
you LOST to EVERY decent team.

We have already looked at commom opponents, but that's not enough evidence for watcher..

Herm/Sta common opponents:
Herm 5
Marshall 1
STA 4-3 and needed OT

Herm 7 Herm did not even allow a shot on goal in 1st period.
Totino 3
STA 1-0 Win Another big shut out...

There is the Herm/GR beating that watcher dismisses...
Herm 5
GR 1

Of the games that STA has actually WON, show me one that is impressive?? One anybody???
There are many that are not.

STA's WINS
1 Duluth Marshall 3 OT
1 St. Thomas Academy 4 OT

3 St. Thomas Academy 8
3 Rochester Lourdes 1

4 Henry Sibley 1
4 St. Thomas Academy 11

5 St. Thomas Academy 5
5 Cretin-Derham Hall 2

6 Holy Angels 3
6 St. Thomas Academy 9

9 St. Thomas Academy 1
9 South St. Paul 0 Big Shut Out!

10 St. Thomas Academy 5
10 Mahtomedi 3

11 St. Thomas Academy 5
11 Tartan1

12 Holy Family Catholic 0
12 St. Thomas Academy 8

13 North St. Paul 1
13 St. Thomas Academy 6

15 St. Thomas Academy 3 W OT
15 Breck 2

17 St. Thomas Academy 10
17 Richfield 1

18 St. Thomas Academy 1 W
18 Totino-Grace 0

19 St. Thomas Academy 14
19 Henry Sibley 0

20 South St. Paul 1
20 St. Thomas Academy 8

21 Mahtomedi 1
21 St. Thomas Academy 4

22 Tartan 0
22 St. Thomas Academy 3 W Big Win here!

So watcher, what is the SOS on the teams that STA has actually beaten??
I guarantee you that Hermantown would do a much better job with the 5 teams that were too much for STA to handle.
Most already do not respect privates in class A, and you are not helping it.

[HShockeywatcher]

I guarantee you that Hermantown would do a much better job with the 5 teams that were too much for STA to handle.
Most already do not respect privates in class A, and you are not helping it.

I could quote myself again, but I won't.

1. You can't guarantee that and Hermantown can't either seeing as how they don't play them.
2. It's not only me. There have been multiple posters already in this thread saying the same things as me. Pointing out facts on a discussion board shouldn't have any bearing on the respect a school gets.

-Again, I have Hermantown at #1 because of their wins and St Thomas' losses; what are you actually arguing against right now?
The whole point of my post was that Hermantown's schedule is weak, which it is, not anything about the quality of team they have. You avoiding that point implies you agree. They have a weak schedule.

You continue to post just to post, "arguing" with someone who's agreed with you.


Any thoughts on the 3 spot? I'd much prefer to get some input now than have people disagree with me later.

[blacklung]

I guarantee you that Hermantown would do a much better job with the 5 teams that were too much for STA to handle.
Most already do not respect privates in class A, and you are not helping it.

I could quote myself again, but I won't.

1. You can't guarantee that and Hermantown can't either seeing as how they don't play them.
2. It's not only me. There have been multiple posters already in this thread saying the same things as me. Pointing out facts on a discussion board shouldn't have any bearing on the respect a school gets.

-Again, I have Hermantown at #1 because of their wins and St Thomas' losses; what are you actually arguing against right now?
The whole point of my post was that Hermantown's schedule is weak, which it is, not anything about the quality of team they have. You avoiding that point implies you agree. They have a weak schedule.

You continue to post just to post, "arguing" with someone who's agreed with you.


Any thoughts on the 3 spot? I'd much prefer to get some input now than have people disagree with me later.

Pull the Schwan's Cup out of Sta's schedule and SOS about the same as Herm. Would like to se Herm in that next year.

If Eden Prarie would not have pulled the plug this year herm would have had another top AA team to beat.
It was 4-3 OT loss last year to a senior EP Team and a Soph/Junior Herm Team.
Why do you think EP pulled out? Afraid they would lose to Herm??

Herm had Andover a few years ago, beat them twice, then they dropped Herm.

As far as #3. Your call. That's why you get paid the big bucks

[HShockeywatcher]

Pull the Schwan's Cup out of Sta's schedule and SOS about the same as Herm. Would like to se Herm in that next year.

If Eden Prarie would not have pulled the plug this year herm would have had another top AA team to beat.
It was 4-3 OT loss last year to a senior EP Team and a Soph/Junior Herm Team.
Why do you think EP pulled out? Afraid they would lose to Herm??

Herm had Andover a few years ago, beat them twice, then they dropped Herm.

As far as #3. Your call. That's why you get paid the big bucks

Actually, I agree with rainier on the #3 spot: TRF

Pull them from that and you need to replace those games; they'd be replaced with solid competition. I highly doubt the #24 schedule would drop to #61. I'd love to see Hermantown there too; most of the state would.

Losing seniors doesn't mean you get worse. EP's definitely not the team they were last year, but they rebounded well. As did St Thomas who also lost seniors.
My guess is they pulled them for similar reasons to why many AA's don't play A's. The game serves "no purpose" (I disagree) and losing would've been bad.

Their schedule isn't bad because of one or two games; it's a third of their schedule.
As I've said many times; it's what they do with their schedule. Look at Eagan; very weak schedule compared to the top AA teams, but until tonight they had only allowed more than 2 goals to 2 teams on their schedule, which is why they are ranked so well in PageStat despite their weak schedule. Had Hermantown done the same with their schedule, they would be higher.

Would love to see teams schedule 22 games and have a random round robin in the middle of the season after 15 games or so with similar competition teams.


Why TRF? I'm not liking the loss to Roseau at all. TG is 3 spots higher than Roseau on PageStat (the gap should increase in the next week).

[Hockey North]

Why TRF?? They TIED Denfeld.

Marshall at #3 before TG and TRF.

[goldy313]

HSWatcher......
Only a handful of us will get this but does the Hermantown/STA relationship play out in 3A with Luverne? You have teams with inflated records and teams with poorer records but that against tougher schedules. I have Hermantown #1 overall in A and Luverne #2 in 3A in trying to be consistent, what do you do?

[Prowlerhockey]

Why TRF?? They TIED Denfeld.

Marshall at #3 before TG and TRF.

TRF also beat Marshall 4-2,no question that TRF should be ahead of Marshall,and possibly even ahead of Breck...in my opinion...3rd TRF,4th Breck,5th Marshall