Hockey Refs

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HOFam'r
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Hockey Refs

Post by HOFam'r » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:30 pm

I have watched alot of sports in my day and the officiating in all seems to really impact the game. I wonder in the rhelm of things how many home town refs have beaten good teams and sent kids who should have won home early?

I watched a football game this season where it appeared the Ref kept throwing flags for holding on every play of more then 10 yards...it got to be fairly blatent.

I really think because of the arrangement coaches can have with officials and because of the way officiating associations are set up and compete against one another that in Hockey especially...games are impacted by home town officials.

What does everyone else think? Do you think I am a whiner? Do you think most refs are objective and fair? Pipe in...let me have it!
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Govs93
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Post by Govs93 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:39 pm

I know that's not the case for high school refs. I work with one here and their system is that they register blindly for games. They go to a website and pick a day they can work. They don't know who the game is or even who they're working with until all 3 have accepted the game. Once 2 refs and a linesman have accepted the game, they know who they're working with and where it is (although I think they do get to select an general area of the metro so they can stay close to home if they need to).

But to your point, I've played in hundreds of games of various sports in my life (as most of us probably have) - hockey, baseball, etc. - and I can't think of one instance in which a ref cost us a game. Not one. That's an absolute cop out 100% of the time. You may not like a call that was made, or think that they're out to get you, but there's always something that could have been done differently. Take the shot instead of pass, swing on the 3-2 pitch instead of watch it go by, etc...

Blaming the ref is always the result of one of two things*:

1) Missing opportunities when you had them and using the easy excuse.
2) Failing to admit you weren't the better team that day.


*Tim Donoghy excluded

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:49 pm

At the HS level we generally do not have hometown refs.

And our hometown refs are not necessarily from our hometown.

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Post by HOFam'r » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 pm

elliott70 wrote:At the HS level we generally do not have hometown refs.

And our hometown refs are not necessarily from our hometown.
Interesting: What about Bemidji...I would imagine that there is not a whole heck of alot of officials to choose from up there? I can't imagine that youth games, high school games are officiated in the dead of winter from folks too far from the city limits?
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packerboy
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Post by packerboy » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:55 pm

I dont know about the hometown thing but poor officiating is out there and in a big way.

I dont care about the result of the game as much as the impact that it has on the way kids play the game and develop.

We now have HEP points and all of his stuff because of a few adults who dont know how to behave.

If we spent as much time on improving officiating as we do on HEP , we might not need to place so much emphasis on it.

I know that goes "Against the Grain" of so many policymakers and mommies but I think that its something that should be discussed more.

Whenever I have had the discussu ion with a District officer or official the response is "Well, its only a game and we shouldnt place that much emphasisi on the officials".

Maybe but when umpires dont know the difference between a balk and a double play and when hockey refs think any time a check gets finished its roughing etc etc, the kids arent learning right and it becomes a waiste of time.

breakout
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Post by breakout » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:02 pm

I have heard (don't know if it is fact) that the fox runs the hen house. In other words, coaches determine who can and cannot ref their games. For instance, if a ref did not call a game the way coaches wanted it called the ref could end up being boycotted from future opportunities.

I am not referring to poor officiating. Let's say there is a less skilled team. The coach may instruct his guys to slow down the other team with their sticks. If there are too many hooks called the coach may not want that ref back.

The ref earns a decent paycheck of fun money for officiating games. What's he/she suppose to do?

breakout
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Post by breakout » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:05 pm

Last year there was emphasis placed on hitting to the head and obstruction penalties in high school hockey. Hopefully that same emphasis is placed.

Call the game by the rules refs! That is your job.

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Post by HOFam'r » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:06 pm

Govs93 wrote:I know that's not the case for high school refs. I work with one here and their system is that they register blindly for games. They go to a website and pick a day they can work. They don't know who the game is or even who they're working with until all 3 have accepted the game. Once 2 refs and a linesman have accepted the game, they know who they're working with and where it is (although I think they do get to select an general area of the metro so they can stay close to home if they need to).

But to your point, I've played in hundreds of games of various sports in my life (as most of us probably have) - hockey, baseball, etc. - and I can't think of one instance in which a ref cost us a game. Not one. That's an absolute cop out 100% of the time. You may not like a call that was made, or think that they're out to get you, but there's always something that could have been done differently. Take the shot instead of pass, swing on the 3-2 pitch instead of watch it go by, etc...

Blaming the ref is always the result of one of two things*:

1) Missing opportunities when you had them and using the easy excuse.
2) Failing to admit you weren't the better team that day.


*Tim Donoghy excluded
All sounds great and I suppose in theory you could be right. However, it is human nature to show bias. Also, I was a member of ref association for football and can remember sitting in the pre season meeting listening to the head of the association talk about how to 'treat' certain clients. It has been ten years but I cannot imagine things have changed that much? I know for a fact that coaches will and have requested certain officials for certain games.

Govs your attitude is great and should be posted on some sportsmanship board some where. However, I think reality and the way you describe are very far apart. Of course, as a coach or a player you HAVE to believe the refs are not biased...however, I obviously have my doubts and could be considered either a pessimist, whiner or someone not naive enough to believe everything I am told or read.

Again, as a player you have to believe you are being treated fairly...but as we all know...life is not always fair and I am one who is tortured by calls I don't understand.
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Post by Govs93 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:08 pm

breakout wrote:I have heard (don't know if it is fact) that the fox runs the hen house. In other words, coaches determine who can and cannot ref their games. For instance, if a ref did not call a game the way coaches wanted it called the ref could end up being boycotted from future opportunities.

I am not referring to poor officiating. Let's say there is a less skilled team. The coach may instruct his guys to slow down the other team with their sticks. If there are too many hooks called the coach may not want that ref back.

The ref earns a decent paycheck of fun money for officiating games. What's he/she suppose to do?
I don't think that's necessarily true either - but I'll ask. Any coach can file a complaint about a ref with the organization the ref belongs to, and they in turn may ensure that the ref in question doesn't work that team's games just to avoid the headache. I don't think it's truly coaches damanding the refs don't come back.

I know there was an instance in football this season where a CDH grad was supposed to work the first CDH playoff game and they requested a change - I think they can do that.

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Post by Can't Never Tried » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:09 pm

Govs93 wrote:I know that's not the case for high school refs. I work with one here and their system is that they register blindly for games. They go to a website and pick a day they can work. They don't know who the game is or even who they're working with until all 3 have accepted the game. Once 2 refs and a linesman have accepted the game, they know who they're working with and where it is (although I think they do get to select an general area of the metro so they can stay close to home if they need to).
If in fact this is how it's done, that's great, it sounds to be about as random as it gets...but I too have heard that the coaches have something to do with ref selection (rumor only). Anyone who can verify this??

I too have seen some blatant cases of home cooking in the past, but mostly @ the youth level, HS seems pretty good.

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Post by rangehockey14 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:10 pm

there's always something that could have been done differently. Take the shot instead of pass, swing on the 3-2 pitch instead of watch it go by, etc...

Blaming the ref is always the result of one of two things*:

1) Missing opportunities when you had them and using the easy excuse.
2) Failing to admit you weren't the better team that day.
Agreed 100%. You couldn't explain that any better than Govs did. After a call by an official, as a player, your thinking theres no way he just called that... but when you think about it, it goes back to those two scenarios that Govs brought up. When you're playing you don't see the big picture, you just automatically turn to the refs. But there's always something the team or individual could have done differently to avoid the call in the first place.

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Post by elliott70 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:17 pm

HOFam'r wrote:
elliott70 wrote:At the HS level we generally do not have hometown refs.

And our hometown refs are not necessarily from our hometown.
Interesting: What about Bemidji...I would imagine that there is not a whole heck of alot of officials to choose from up there? I can't imagine that youth games, high school games are officiated in the dead of winter from folks too far from the city limits?
Last HS home game was girls (vs Stillwater) - refs were from Warroad. Generally the HS games are reffed by non-Bemidji people - linesman will be from Bemidji. Some non-conference, non-section games will have local refs, but again they may not be Bemidji people.

At the youth level we use home town officials, but (depending on the year) a lot can be college kids from all over MN or ND.
Last edited by elliott70 on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Govs93
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Post by Govs93 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:23 pm

HOFam'r wrote:
Govs93 wrote:I know that's not the case for high school refs. I work with one here and their system is that they register blindly for games. They go to a website and pick a day they can work. They don't know who the game is or even who they're working with until all 3 have accepted the game. Once 2 refs and a linesman have accepted the game, they know who they're working with and where it is (although I think they do get to select an general area of the metro so they can stay close to home if they need to).

But to your point, I've played in hundreds of games of various sports in my life (as most of us probably have) - hockey, baseball, etc. - and I can't think of one instance in which a ref cost us a game. Not one. That's an absolute cop out 100% of the time. You may not like a call that was made, or think that they're out to get you, but there's always something that could have been done differently. Take the shot instead of pass, swing on the 3-2 pitch instead of watch it go by, etc...

Blaming the ref is always the result of one of two things*:

1) Missing opportunities when you had them and using the easy excuse.
2) Failing to admit you weren't the better team that day.


*Tim Donoghy excluded
All sounds great and I suppose in theory you could be right. However, it is human nature to show bias. Also, I was a member of ref association for football and can remember sitting in the pre season meeting listening to the head of the association talk about how to 'treat' certain clients. It has been ten years but I cannot imagine things have changed that much? I know for a fact that coaches will and have requested certain officials for certain games.

Govs your attitude is great and should be posted on some sportsmanship board some where. However, I think reality and the way you describe are very far apart. Of course, as a coach or a player you HAVE to believe the refs are not biased...however, I obviously have my doubts and could be considered either a pessimist, whiner or someone not naive enough to believe everything I am told or read.

Again, as a player you have to believe you are being treated fairly...but as we all know...life is not always fair and I am one who is tortured by calls I don't understand.
Everybody's first reaction is to fly off the handle and blame the refs (hell - it was for me most of the time growing up). Why? Because it's incredibly easy to do... and everything is easy in hockey, right?! :shock:

But if you sleep on it, what always happens the next day? You go over the game in your head again and again and things start becomming clear - "If I had shot at a corner instead of into his chest", or "if so-and-so hadn't tried to send that rink-wide pass that got picked off" or "their forward took it too us all night long". The ref becomes more of an afterthought the next day.

If there's any common sense in a player, they're going to know that a ref will almost never lose them a game. If they're calling it one way, adjust. Almost without exception, somebody complaining about calls did nothing over the course of a game to change things into their favor. They keep playing the same game, even though they know full well that the ref is calling a tight/loose game. The ref isn't going to change for you.



I feel I should also now state that the only hockey game I reffed in my life was during the St. Paul Winter Carnival Mite tournament when it was outdoors at Phalen about 15 years ago... so my voice is not one of a referee. Just a former player who has learned better.

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Post by Can't Never Tried » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:34 pm

Govs93 wrote: I feel I should also now state that the only hockey game I reffed in my life was during the St. Paul Winter Carnival Mite tournament when it was outdoors at Phalen about 15 years ago...
And you were awful, plus your stride was bad :P :lol:


The one thing that gets me more then just about any other aspect, is not being in position to make the right call, being late to the line, and waving off goals, or calling them good when they are not in position to make that call, is something that changes games that players can do nothing about.
I mean they can't slow the play down and wait for the refs to catch up.

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Post by Govs93 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:38 pm

Can't Never Tried wrote:
Govs93 wrote: I feel I should also now state that the only hockey game I reffed in my life was during the St. Paul Winter Carnival Mite tournament when it was outdoors at Phalen about 15 years ago...
And you were awful, plus your stride was bad :P :lol:
That's not true. I got everybody through those 10 minute periods in about 8 minutes and back into the warming house! :lol:

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Post by tomASS » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:39 pm

I'm on the side of constant improvement of referee training and increased evaluating. I know in one sport in order to referee at the HS level you only need to get 80% on an open book, take home test. You don't need to have ever played the game or referee before.

That sport, the refereeing tends to be far below the standard of where it should be at. Hockey in MN is far better, but I have complained in the past about consistency of the interpretation or opinion of penalty calls within the new standards of application of the existing rules.

Training and evaluating will help continue to close the gap of call consistencies. The bigger problem comes when there is a huge inconsistency in number of calls between the teams within same game. I think a coach or the fans can better understand a poorly officiated game when it occurs for both teams.

breakout
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Post by breakout » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:47 pm

tomASS wrote:I'm on the side of constant improvement of referee training and increased evaluating. I know in one sport in order to referee at the HS level you only need to get 80% on an open book, take home test. You don't need to have ever played the game or referee before.

That sport, the refereeing tends to be far below the standard of where it should be at. Hockey in MN is far better, but I have complained in the past about consistency of the interpretation or opinion of penalty calls within the new standards of application of the existing rules.

Training and evaluating will help continue to close the gap of call consistencies. The bigger problem comes when there is a huge inconsistency in number of calls between the teams within same game. I think a coach or the fans can better understand a poorly officiated game when it occurs for both teams.
To your point, I agree.

From what I hear, high school ref qualifications/training is less than what districts/youth hockey requires. Sad if true. Maybe someone can clarify for me.

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Post by Undercover Hockey Lover » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:52 pm

Don't kid yourself referees have bias' they are human they shouldn't that's why the jersey has black and white stripes. Older officials will say don't let coach x say anything and the younger official will take that to heart and go overboard. I was having a chat with the head referee about that very subject once watching a game in the Gardens standing by the lobby glass right behind the net when he said something to the effect of these guys are great and they never make mistakes and they have the right to do that. Well one of the officials that told a younger official to do just that came into the zone late behind the play when a player rifles one on the ice at the net it picks the corner perfectly and goes all the way around the inside of the net and comes out the other corner and this guy waves it off. Needless to say the head referee stops in mid-sentence turned red and walked away as he was so embarrassed. I couldn't have asked God for anything more perfect. That wave off cost that team the go ahead goal the other team then proceeded to take the puck down and score and the wave-off wound up losing the game. That shoots Govs theory all to heck.... :wink:
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Post by Govs93 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:53 pm

tomASS wrote:I'm on the side of constant improvement of referee training and increased evaluating. I know in one sport in order to referee at the HS level you only need to get 80% on an open book, take home test. You don't need to have ever played the game or referee before.

That sport, the refereeing tends to be far below the standard of where it should be at. Hockey in MN is far better, but I have complained in the past about consistency of the interpretation or opinion of penalty calls within the new standards of application of the existing rules.

Training and evaluating will help continue to close the gap of call consistencies. The bigger problem comes when there is a huge inconsistency in number of calls between the teams within same game. I think a coach or the fans can better understand a poorly officiated game when it occurs for both teams.
That would be ideal, but I don't see any scenario in which that will ever happen. You're talking about continued training of officials who make something in the neighborhood of $60-70 per game throughout the state (probably far less than that in other sports) - in amateur athletics. It's not financially possible to do. I believe in hockey, returning refs get an 8 hour cram session before the season at various satellite trainings thoughout the state regarding the correct interpretations of new rules, and I don't know that it'll get much better than that.

The additional costs of staff and trainings, plus getting additional unpaid commitment from officials who are just working games in their spare time to attend trainings and get reviews isn't a combination that will lead to greater consistency in calls. It could lead to worse if tenured officals decide it isn't worth the hassle anymore and start to quit.

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Post by tomASS » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:59 pm

Can't Never Tried wrote:
The one thing that gets me more then just about any other aspect, is not being in position to make the right call, being late to the line, and waving off goals, or calling them good when they are not in position to make that call
agreed at least be in a position to sell me that you had the best view of what just occurred; whether you get the call right at least be in the position to convince me your view was the best

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Post by Govs93 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:03 pm

Undercover Hockey Lover wrote:Don't kid yourself referees have bias' they are human they shouldn't that's why the jersey has black and white stripes. Older officials will say don't let coach x say anything and the younger official will take that to heart and go overboard. I was having a chat with the head referee about that very subject once watching a game in the Gardens standing by the lobby glass right behind the net when he said something to the effect of these guys are great and they never make mistakes and they have the right to do that. Well one of the officials that told a younger official to do just that came into the zone late behind the play when a player rifles one on the ice at the net it picks the corner perfectly and goes all the way around the inside of the net and comes out the other corner and this guy waves it off. Needless to say the head referee stops in mid-sentence turned red and walked away as he was so embarrassed. I couldn't have asked God for anything more perfect. That wave off cost that team the go ahead goal the other team then proceeded to take the puck down and score and the wave-off wound up losing the game. That shoots Govs theory all to heck.... :wink:
No - in fact, just the opposite - it just found us another case in point. It sure was easy for you to tell us about a ref mistake (a ref who wasn't even on the ice, mind you), but...

Tell us all about the rest of the game... what was the score? Did the one goal make a difference? How many opportunities were missed? Was the goalie positioned correctly on the shot?

Another cop out - and this one about a ref who wasn't even calling the game you were watching! :lol: Thanks for proving my point though!

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Post by BIAFP » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:03 pm

The majority of good tenured officials give up the game for the very reasons you good folks are venting about. There is way too much emphasis on the officials and not enough on the conduct of the athletes and coaches. I have yet to see a referee score a goal :roll: If you think it so easy........lace em up and give it a try :lol:

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Post by Undercover Hockey Lover » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:11 pm

14 years and 800 games under my belt....I know you have a couple thousand but I've done my share for hot chocolate too. :wink:
Hockey Moms are Hottest!!!

BIAFP
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Post by BIAFP » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:19 pm

Undercover Hockey Lover wrote:14 years and 800 games under my belt....I know you have a couple thousand but I've done my share for hot chocolate too. :wink:
As many as R. Hasbargen?

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Post by HShockeywatcher » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:20 pm

I think of it as two ways to look at it:
1. Yes, Govs is right. You could've always done something differently to cause you to win.
2. You shouldn't have had to. If you lose a close one and there was a bad call that "cost" you the game, that's all that should matter. What you did previously in the game shouldn't matter, just what's happening now.

All in all, I've seen games where calls changed the result of the game. I can't recall one where the refs necessarily made one team win or lose, but that they changed what the final score would've been. That being said, I think games are impacted, but not seasons. You may lose a game here and there, but you will not go from top in state to bottom of your conference because of the refs.

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