State of High School hockey!

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BoogeyMan
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State of High School hockey!

Post by BoogeyMan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:24 pm

We have the State of the union address

We have the State of the state adress

What about the state of high school hockey address?

What do people think about the quality of talent in Minnesota high school hockey the past 4-6 years?

If majority of the more talented kids leave their association and/or high school teams. No doubt that the level of play will be effected.

I just read today that the Minnesota State high school hockey tourney had declining attendance last year. Not to mention I hear people talk about the lack of talent in Minnesota the past few years.

I'm not saying. I just saying..... Is this something that we have to be worried about?

I for one believe that parents have do whats best for their kids. I have no problem if kids leave their associations or high school teams. I guess I'm sick of people making excuses from time to time.

Its frustrating to hear people say how good their team would be if they didn't lose a couple of talented players. Facts are they did lose the players. No excuses!

Question: The paper had an article on the fab five (now six) Edina players that decided to stay put and play together in high school. Are any of these kids getting additional ice time before or after the season with another team?
Deciding to stay home and play 25 games compared to the 80+ games they could receive somewhere else is a huge difference. I admire them staying home. Once again. They're doing what's best for their situation.

Good luck to Edina.
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Post by nipe87 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:29 pm

Declining attendance?? Were you there??
The Excel Center was a sold out zoo, it was nuts.

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Re: State of High School hockey!

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:33 pm

BoogeyMan wrote:What do people think about the quality of talent in Minnesota high school hockey the past 4-6 years?

If majority of the more talented kids leave their association and/or high school teams. No doubt that the level of play will be effected.

I just read today that the Minnesota State high school hockey tourney had declining attendance last year. Not to mention I hear people talk about the lack of talent in Minnesota the past few years.

I'm not saying. I just saying..... Is this something that we have to be worried about?

==

Its frustrating to hear people say how good their team would be if they didn't lose a couple of talented players.

Question: The paper had an article on the fab five (now six) Edina players that decided to stay put and play together in high school. Are any of these kids getting additional ice time before or after the season with another team? Deciding to stay home and play 25 games compared to the 80+ games they could receive somewhere else is a huge difference. I admire them staying home. Once again. They're doing what's best for their situation.
1. Based on NHL Draft numbers, it is hard to make a case that Minnesota HS hockey is turning out fewer talented players.

2. Declining attendance off of capacity. AA is sold out and A games draw well, certainly compared to state high school tournaments in any sport in any other state. I think you are reaching to find a problem here.

3. It is too bad that star players from lesser programs leave, whether it be to Juniors or private schools. Overall it doesn't change the complexion of Minnesota hockey much as there are now more strong private school programs than there were in the past. Go back 20 years and Hill-Murray was a powerhouse. St. Thomas had a little spurt with Randy Skarda and Dan Brooks. Cretin went to state in the late 80s. Today you have strong programs at STA, Benilde and Holy Angels and the rest of the private schools (Blake, Breck, Totino-Grace, etc...) are better than they were.

4. There are fewer Minnesotans leaving for the USHL than there were a few years ago. Did the B-SM coach say 10 vs. 40 in his interview? Also, fewer Minnesotans find the NTDP attractive.

5. Anders Lee and Zach Budish were rostered on Elite teams, but they also were All-Metro 2nd Teamers in football. Yes, the Edina kids are getting extra games through the Elite program.

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Post by GopherPuckPlayer » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:37 pm

ya didnt someone get into trouble for scalping AA tickets last year?

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Re: State of High School hockey!

Post by Gopher Blog » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:39 pm

O-townClown wrote:Also, fewer Minnesotans find the NTDP attractive.
What facts do you base this statement on?

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Post by BoogeyMan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:40 pm

This is what was written: I guess the attendance was still pretty good. No offense to Roseau or G.R. Having two smaller towns play in the Championship game could be a factor.
It will be interesting to see the attendance this year.

Go Roseau!


5 STILL THE ONE

Attendance for the state tournament took a slight dip in 2007 after five consecutive years of increases. A record 125,201 fans attended the tournament in 2006, followed by 124,348 last year, which ranks as the second-highest total. The level of interest among Minnesota hockey fans is matched by the quality of the experience attending the event at Xcel Energy Center.

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Here's the real number

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:42 pm

Here is your dip in attendance.

Attendance for the state tournament took a slight dip in 2007 after five consecutive years of increases. A record 125,201 fans attended the tournament in 2006, followed by 124,348 last year, which ranks as the second-highest total.

124,348 is more than there were in 2004 and 2005.

853 from the all-time record. Literally a drop in the bucket. Wake me up if it is 10,000.

Could it be that the success of outstate teams led to the lower attendance figure?

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Re: State of High School hockey!

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:44 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:
O-townClown wrote:Also, fewer Minnesotans find the NTDP attractive.
What facts do you base this statement on?
There's one there at the 17s, right?

Kids like Walter and Budish could go, but didn't. Still, there will be Minnesotans added for the international competitions.

On what facts would you say the statement is misleading or inaccurate?

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Post by BoogeyMan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:48 pm

Town O clown- I'm not reaching to find any problems. Just bringing up a topic.
The more I go to the rink. The more I hear people talking about the players they used to have. But lost to other teams or programs.

Shoulda - coulda - woulda <<<< getting old
Life's simple, but some insist on making it hard

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NTDP

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Here is the press release from the summer.
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — USA Hockey today announced the coaching staff and 21-player roster for its 2007 U.S. Under-17 Select Team. The squad will take part in the 2007 Under-17 Five Nations Tournament from August 20-24 in Strakonice, Tabor and Pribram, Czech Republic.

Team members were chosen from the 2007 USA Hockey Select 16 Player Development Camp, which was held June 23-29 at the ESL Sports Centre in Rochester, N.Y., and featured many of America’s best hockey players born in 1991.

Forwards Zach Budish (Edina, Minn.), Ryan Walters (Rosemount, Minn.), Steven Whitney (Reading, Mass.) and defenseman Nate Schmidt (St. Cloud, Minn.) highlight the U.S. Under-17 Select Team roster. All four played with Team USA at the 2006 Under-17 Three Nations Tournament in Rochester, N.Y., which included two U.S. Under-17 Select Teams, Team White and Team Blue. Walters and Whitney skated for tournament winner, Team Blue, while Budish and Schmidt played for Team White, which finished the tournament in second place.
Checking the roster, Nick Mattson from Chaska High is the only Minnesotan playing on the NTDP. For kids like Budish, what sounds better? Play for the hometown team, live at home, maybe even try another sport... OR... live with a host family in Ann Arbor and focus 24/7 on hockey with a heavy travel schedule and hope you meet a cute girl in the high school before your teammates get to her.

Geez, is it any wonder Minnesota kids have an easy time turning this down?

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Post by mrhockey08 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:52 pm

I would say that attendance is not declining they have been setting records for attendance for awhile.maybe if it was down last year it could be the direct result of northern dominance of the tourney. with championship games being Roseau-Grand Rapids and Duluth Marshall- Hermantown.it could be that ppl up there just dont wanna make the trip. and as far as lack of talent idk about maybe from some ppl leaving for national development programs or other reasons,but there is still plenty of great players that played in the tourney

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Re: State of High School hockey!

Post by Gopher Blog » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:52 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Gopher Blog wrote:
O-townClown wrote:Also, fewer Minnesotans find the NTDP attractive.
What facts do you base this statement on?
There's one there at the 17s, right?

Kids like Walter and Budish could go, but didn't. Still, there will be Minnesotans added for the international competitions.

On what facts would you say the statement is misleading or inaccurate?
USA Hockey extended one NTDP invite to a MN kid this year and Mattson accepted. No other Minnesotan was offered a spot on the team this year. Walters was one of the last few possibilities heading into the Advanced 16s but they did not offer him a spot either (which kind of surprised me). You are misinformed on who "could go".

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For Boogey

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:00 pm

BoogeyMan wrote:Town O clown- I'm not reaching to find any problems. Just bringing up a topic.
The more I go to the rink. The more I hear people talking about the players they used to have. But lost to other teams or programs.

Shoulda - coulda - woulda <<<< getting old
You aren't hearing that in Edina. You probably wouldn't hear that at Holy Angels or Hill-Murray. Yes, I'm sure you hear it all the time from communities that lose a player or two (or more) to the private schools.

When I was in HS it was hard for Johnson, White Bear, and the rest of suburban St. Paul to compete with Hill-Murray because the siphoned off many of the best kids.

Good programs attract top players like a magnet. It isn't new. Greg Dornbach played on Edina's 1984 state champs after playing at St. Thomas. Like Anders Lee, he was a product of the Edina youth programs.

Dean Williamson played on the Hornets in 1985 after playing at Breck.

Californians Rob Mendel and Charlie Heinrich were on that 1984 team and their Pee Wee goaltender Mike O'Hara played with them in 1986 after being on Hill-Murray in 1985.

Rob Granato came from Downers Grove to play at Burnsville after they won the state title in 1985 and 1986.

Dan Plante played in the NHL after moving from Hayward to play at Edina in the late 80s.

You don't often hear stories of super players coming from out of state to join middle-of-the-road teams. I only offer these anecdotal stories to show you it isn't new. What has happened, in my opinion, is that Minneapolis has better private school options for hockey than it did 20 years ago.

Holy Angels under Trebil has been a power. Before that it didn't make sense for a real good player to leave their public school to play at Blake, Breck, Benilde, or Minnehaha. The hockey was clearly inferior.

Another indication of the strength of Minnesota hockey today is that you don't see many Minnesotans at Shattuck. If it were necessary to play more games at a higher level I think you'd see more kids heading to Faribault. Instead, that program draws players from the rest of the country.

Minnesota hockey is doing very well. It is hard to make a case otherwise. A few years ago the high school model was under attack. NTDP, USHL, etc... Today it isn't much of an issue. So what if a kid leaves Little Falls for the USHL? (Okay, big deal if you're in Little Falls.) Those stories are the exception.

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Re: State of High School hockey!

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:07 pm

Gopher Blog wrote: USA Hockey extended one NTDP invite to a MN kid this year and Mattson accepted. No other Minnesotan was offered a spot on the team this year. Walters was one of the last few possibilities heading into the Advanced 16s but they did not offer him a spot either (which kind of surprised me). You are misinformed on who "could go".
Okay, I'm misinformed. What the heck are the criteria?
NOTES: Ryan Walters was named Team USA’s Player of the Game … Team USA outshot Germany by a 52-25 margin … Walters (3-0--3) and Steven Whitney (1-2--3) lead Team USA with three points each in the tournament …
Has it gotten to a point where USA Hockey is more worried about developing kids from Atlanta and Dallas and would rather leave the Minnesota kids at home? The kid in Orem, Utah probably wouldn't develop much without USA Hockey. Or at least he'd have to move away. I know the kid listed as being from Winter Park has played in Canada for a few years.

Stories I heard, obviously wrong, are that the NTDP wanted Budish.

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Re: For Boogey

Post by GopherPuckPlayer » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:10 pm

O-townClown wrote:
BoogeyMan wrote: Minnesota hockey is doing very well. It is hard to make a case otherwise. A few years ago the high school model was under attack. NTDP, USHL, etc... Today it isn't much of an issue. So what if a kid leaves Little Falls for the USHL? (Okay, big deal if you're in Little Falls.) Those stories are the exception.
So your saying if Festler was around the cities he would have transferd to another school?

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Post by MooseJawGuy » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:11 pm

BoogeyMan wrote:Town O clown- I'm not reaching to find any problems. Just bringing up a topic.
The more I go to the rink. The more I hear people talking about the players they used to have. But lost to other teams or programs.

Shoulda - coulda - woulda <<<< getting old
Well lets think about this...

Simley, SSP. The transfer numbers back in 2001-2004 were ridiculous. Simley's 2002-2003 state runner up team was missing 6 very good, highly skilled players whom all moved out of the organization. Jared Stuart (Hastings star player now in Mankato) was once an IGH youth player and should have been a Simley starter. On top of that he would have been skating with the top players from both the 03 Simley team and the 04 SSP Packer state team. Which consisted of more than half IGH (Simley) players. Ones like Mike Pilot, Lamanna as well as O'Brien (sp?). All top skaters for SSP as well as top state performers. And all of those players wouldn't have been allowed to transfer or would have never left... I can safely say Simley, as far fetched as it sounds would have had a very good opportunity to be a power house of the state. Were talking a lineup that consisted of players that are today playing successfully at high levels. And when you pump out successful teams year in and year out... the talent comes your way... leading to more successful seasons. Quite a few of those players left solely because of Simley's rep of being a poor team. And because of all those very good players leaving, they tend to be a poor team year in and year out. Its a vicious cycle. If they stayed Simley would be very good. But they leave so there not. And because there not, players don't stay. And the very good players that do stay and play, get no recognition because the overall team isn't that good because they have to fill in the roster spot of the much more highly skilled player that left with an average to below average player.

So where is this not a legit excuse?
Last edited by MooseJawGuy on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Gopher Blog » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:14 pm

O-townClown wrote:[What the heck are the criteria?
They scout the kids, invite them to the tryouts in March, and watch them compete there. That leads to some invites being extended. Any remaining roster spots to be filled are decided on after the Advanced 16s in the summer. Walters badly wanted to play there but it just didn't happen for him. But he'll get plenty of time in the USHL in the next few years.

Believe it or not, the MN kids available this year were not as impressive as players from other areas. There was a reason there was only one MN kid invited and it wasn't because of any anti-MN bias. Especially considering how many MN kids have gone through that program.

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Re: For Boogey

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:19 pm

GopherPuckPlayer wrote: So your saying if Festler was around the cities he would have transferd to another school?
I have no idea what he'd do.

Benilde's coach was interviewed Monday on the MyFox show and he said the state lost something like 10 players to the USHL and it was 40 not too long ago. That's a big decline. Still not zero, so you have a player like Festler.

In the Twins, maybe he'd get a car and drive to Holy Angels or Hill-Murray. I don't know. That's speculation. You'd have to ask him or his family.

What is interesting to me is that the 'mobile' player often has no trouble moving. I mentioned Mike O'Hara, who ultimately did very well in goal for St. Cloud, in another post. He left California to play in Washington, then jumped to Hill-Murray for his junior year. Edina for his senior year. USHL. What difference does it make? It's just another stop.

Today it is a guy named Montpetit from Wisconsin. While most players head to Shattuck in 8th or 9th grade and stay with the program, he arrived as a junior and left a year later. He's (I think) a 12th grader playing in the USHL. He tore it up at Shattuck, but it wasn't a high enough level to please him. Playing with Stepan, Murray, and others mind you. Kids that will be drafted.

The biggest 'problem' that Boogey had hit on is that kids from fair programs are going to private schools. This phenomenon is about 100 years old in basketball for cities like New York, Chicago, or Washington D.C., but only recently has been an issue in Minneapolis for hockey. It's been happening for about 25 years on the other side of the river, but only the last 10 I'll estimate for the West side.

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Thanks

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:24 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:
O-townClown wrote:[What the heck are the criteria?
They scout the kids, invite them to the tryouts in March, and watch them compete there. That leads to some invites being extended. Any remaining roster spots to be filled are decided on after the Advanced 16s in the summer. Walters badly wanted to play there but it just didn't happen for him. But he'll get plenty of time in the USHL in the next few years.

Believe it or not, the MN kids available this year were not as impressive as players from other areas. There was a reason there was only one MN kid invited and it wasn't because of any anti-MN bias. Especially considering how many MN kids have gone through that program.
You asked for examples on which I based my comment, how about White? He played a Minnesota schedule and then joined one of the national teams. Did he too not have a chance to join the NTDP?

Kids from Minnesota get added to Team USA at some of these age groups. More often than they are adding kids from other states.

Wasn't NTDP's roster selected AFTER the tournament where Walters and Budish played so well? Your post says it is mostly set BEFORE that. I'll pay more attention to the process this year. Thanks for the correction.

(Still, I don't think kids on great Minnesota teams with real strong schedules have to leave home if they don't want to. For kids like Mueller and Johnson it may fast-track things. Takes a special kid, though.)

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NTDP vs. International competitions

Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:31 pm

Here's an 18 & Under roster from the summer.

All players came from the NTDP U18 EXCEPT:

* Two from the U17 (Saponari from GA and Schroeder from MN)
* New York goaltender from OHL
* Connecticut defenseman from a prep school
* McDonagh from Cretin-Derham Hall
* O-Brien from the University of Minnesota
* White from Grand Rapids

Are these Minnesotans kids that didn't have a chance to play with the USA NTDP? Obviously I'm mistaken in my assumption, but I figured they could have gone that route if they wanted and chose not to.

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Re: Thanks

Post by Gopher Blog » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:44 pm

O-townClown wrote:You asked for examples on which I based my comment, how about White? He played a Minnesota schedule and then joined one of the national teams. Did he too not have a chance to join the NTDP?
Nope. No invite to play with the team full time after he tried out in 2005. As you stated, he did join them for the World Tourney this past April.
Wasn't NTDP's roster selected AFTER the tournament where Walters and Budish played so well? Your post says it is mostly set BEFORE that. I'll pay more attention to the process this year. Thanks for the correction.
Most of the invites are extended in the spring. This year, there were a few remaining roster spots left heading into Advanced 16s and those final decisions were made in early July. For instance, Walters found out he didn't get one of the final spots and this happened right before the 4th of July.
(Still, I don't think kids on great Minnesota teams with real strong schedules have to leave home if they don't want to. For kids like Mueller and Johnson it may fast-track things. Takes a special kid, though.)
Depends on what you consider a "strong schedule" to be. Mike Hoeffel left after his junior year and Hill Murray usually has a good schedule. I don't think schedule strength has much to do with these decisions.
Last edited by Gopher Blog on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NTDP vs. International competitions

Post by Gopher Blog » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:50 pm

O-townClown wrote:Here's an 18 & Under roster from the summer.

All players came from the NTDP U18 EXCEPT:

* Two from the U17 (Saponari from GA and Schroeder from MN)
* New York goaltender from OHL
* Connecticut defenseman from a prep school
* McDonagh from Cretin-Derham Hall
* O-Brien from the University of Minnesota
* White from Grand Rapids

Are these Minnesotans kids that didn't have a chance to play with the USA NTDP? Obviously I'm mistaken in my assumption, but I figured they could have gone that route if they wanted and chose not to.
First of all, it wasn't "summer" You are thinking of the final World Tourney played in April.

Neither White or McDonagh were offered spots on full time basis. You are reading way too much into the fact that they got invited to play with the USA team for one tournament.

I am not saying USA Hockey selects the right players 100% of the time. I am simply stating that you are overstating how much it gets turned down by MN players

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Post by ironrangehockey55 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:06 am

boogeyman, didnt you make the comment that the university of minnesota loses players all the time which is one of the reason he loses and has a hard time. being a bulldog fan, i dont want to hear excuses about why he loses kids. shoulda woulda coulda getting old--same as this post :lol: :D :lol:

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Post by ironrangehockey55 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:10 am

[quote]Its frustrating to hear people say how good their team would be if they didn't lose a couple of talented players. Facts are they did lose the players. No excuses!
[/quote]

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Post by Undercover Hockey Lover » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:59 am

So...Boogeyman finally found the big boys site and has decided to stir this pot. :roll: If your going to play in these waters be careful as there's way bigger sharks over here. This guys a checkbook hockey mite dad that has questioned the value of association hockey and has bought into the Minnesota Made program all the way. Now it looks like he's questioning the value of HS hockey maybe he's trying to start a pay as you go HS-aged league with his new yogi. I see in your posts in this thread you've smooched both Roseau's and Edina's fannies...who next...your buddy from the youth board...Tom...what's that. :?
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