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mulefarm



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 1229

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not talking about only first rounders, but players on the A list, which in most cases could be in top three rounds. The Elite league may keep some kids around, but with no practices and only weekend games, I'm not sure if that is enough to keep players who want to move up around? There is so many more opportunities for Mn players, and they are being contacted by major juniors teams, ushl, nahl and AAA teams. Many of the top players are looking at making the nhl as their goal, which wasn't the case a 10-15 years ago. AAA does cost money, but I don't think too many parents would pass up the opportunity if they thought thier kid would benefit. How many of the Hub's top 100 would have stayed in HS with todays opportunities? I really can't think of too many before the 90's that left before their sr yr, but the last 15 yrs I bet the list would be long. Again, I don't agree with all that has happened, but I do think as a state we should have numerous players on the A list every year.
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O-townClown



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh Mule, Minnesota does have numerous players on the A list every year.
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mulefarm



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HS A list? Numerous?
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Snap Happy



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mulefarm wrote:
Now more and more Mn hs aged kids are going to juniors to speed up their development and are being encouraged by college coaches and pro teams. 10-20 years ago hardly any player considered leaving hs, now I would say the elite players all look at that option. I would say in the near future, somebody will start a AAA midget team in the metro area. Not that I agree with the things that are happening, but the hockey landscape has changed dramaticly the last 10-15 yrs and hs hockey is not what it once was. With the number of players, facilities and year around training I find it hard to believe we can't produce more A and B list players compared to other states.
I played in the MN HS system 16+ years ago and I can tell you that plenty of players back then considered USHL instead of HS - and some chose that route. This isn't a new trend my friend.
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mulefarm



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snap Happy wrote:
mulefarm wrote:
Now more and more Mn hs aged kids are going to juniors to speed up their development and are being encouraged by college coaches and pro teams. 10-20 years ago hardly any player considered leaving hs, now I would say the elite players all look at that option. I would say in the near future, somebody will start a AAA midget team in the metro area. Not that I agree with the things that are happening, but the hockey landscape has changed dramaticly the last 10-15 yrs and hs hockey is not what it once was. With the number of players, facilities and year around training I find it hard to believe we can't produce more A and B list players compared to other states.
I played in the MN HS system 16+ years ago and I can tell you that plenty of players back then considered USHL instead of HS - and some chose that route. This isn't a new trend my friend.

Not a lot of players left HS 16 yrs ago. The USHL was an older league (post HS at the time) Very few 16-17 yr olds played in the league. There are way more opportunties now for kids than 16 yrs ago and Mn has to realize that.
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outside_observer



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mulefarm wrote:
HS A list? Numerous?


I would bet by the midterm rankings there will be quite a few more MN HS kids on the Must See list. (A)
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O-townClown



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mulefarm wrote:
HS A list? Numerous?


HS A list is only kids playing Minnesota HS hockey this year. Lots of kids that show in the other lists - US & Canada - also played at other levels before playing in the USHL or OHL/WHL/QMJHL.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Your post said Minnesota should turn out A players and it does. Always has and always will.
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Snap Happy



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mulefarm wrote:
Snap Happy wrote:
mulefarm wrote:
Now more and more Mn hs aged kids are going to juniors to speed up their development and are being encouraged by college coaches and pro teams. 10-20 years ago hardly any player considered leaving hs, now I would say the elite players all look at that option. I would say in the near future, somebody will start a AAA midget team in the metro area. Not that I agree with the things that are happening, but the hockey landscape has changed dramaticly the last 10-15 yrs and hs hockey is not what it once was. With the number of players, facilities and year around training I find it hard to believe we can't produce more A and B list players compared to other states.
I played in the MN HS system 16+ years ago and I can tell you that plenty of players back then considered USHL instead of HS - and some chose that route. This isn't a new trend my friend.

Not a lot of players left HS 16 yrs ago. The USHL was an older league (post HS at the time) Very few 16-17 yr olds played in the league. There are way more opportunties now for kids than 16 yrs ago and Mn has to realize that.
Would you mind elaborating on what you think are the different opportunities? And what the differences are USHL now vs USHL then? Just curious more than anything.... BTW there were more than a few kids my age that played USHL before and after the HS season. And I know one for sure that played the whole season his junior and senior year. I also remember a 16 YO kid trying out for my team. He was good enough to play that's for sure.
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mulefarm



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The USHL for Mn kids use to be a place to earn a scholarship if you did not get one while playing HS. HS players as a rule went directly to college, but more college coaches saw the advantages of 20 yr old freshman and the best place to find the late bloomers was the USHL. Also I would guess there were more Mn kids playing in the league, but with hockey played around the country, I think that has also changed. The league is still a devolpmental league, but it is also big business. Owners are out to make money, coaches are payed quite well and I believe it is a Teir 1 Junior A League, but players retain college elgilbiilty. The league has gotten younger because of NHL money. I believe teams or the league are compensated for players drafted and the higher a player goes, the more money they recieve, similar to major jr teams. As far as opportunities,I believe there are twice as many USHL teams compared to 16 yrs ago, NAHL has at least 24 teams, Ann Arbor for some kids, BCHL, junior B teams. HS use to be the main option for Mn kids, now they have many options to pursue their dream. Not saying one is better than the other, but more choices.
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O-townClown



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mulefarm wrote:
The USHL for Mn kids use to be a place to earn a scholarship if you did not get one while playing HS.


Yes, in the 80s it was a lot different. Mark Osiecki was plucked from the USHL at midseason to join the Badgers. Jay Moore scored about 150 points for Denver after spending one year in the league.

In the 90s it morphed from a "last chance" league to become what it is today: the primary American player development option. Some kids are there at age 17 and leave home.

There are a lot of Minnesotans in the league. Some miss their last year of HS and some are post-graduation.

If your comments are implying that Minnesota isn't turning out players like it used to, I disagree. What has changed is that it doesn't turn out one-third to one-half of the nation's Division I players like it probably did in the 70s. Hockey, and even high-level hockey, is played throughout the country. When a kid from North Carolina makes it to UND, it doesn't mean Minnesota has failed.
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MNHockeyFan



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next wave of U.S. stars making their mark in the NHL

"Americans are coming from more than traditional hockey areas like Minnesota and the New England states."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/story/2011-11-09/new-american-hockey-stars/51142904/1
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longdistancespectator8



Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=74397

By this list there is 1 high school player in the entire country considered an 'A' player.
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Snap Happy



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

longdistancespectator8 wrote:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=74397

By this list there is 1 high school player in the entire country considered an 'A' player.
is there a separate list with USHL and tier 1 midget? Where is the representation of those leagues?
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longdistancespectator8



Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked but was unable to find a list. The one insight I got is that one of the mock drafts had Brady Skeij being drafted in the first round. He was one of about 6 or 7 USHL players that I noticed being predicted as first rounders. The vast majority were from the OHL or WHL then some swedes
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D6Rocks



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snap Happy wrote:
longdistancespectator8 wrote:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=74397

By this list there is 1 high school player in the entire country considered an 'A' player.
is there a separate list with USHL and tier 1 midget? Where is the representation of those leagues?


I posted that list earlier in the thread.
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Snap Happy



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D6Rocks wrote:
Snap Happy wrote:
longdistancespectator8 wrote:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=74397

By this list there is 1 high school player in the entire country considered an 'A' player.
is there a separate list with USHL and tier 1 midget? Where is the representation of those leagues?


I posted that list earlier in the thread.
Ya I guess I saw that. And maybe my point is less about USHL than it is about Tier 1 Midget. Neither of these lists have any players from Detroit Little Ceasar's, Belle Tire, Russell Stover, etc. Maybe that's because there's a point where great players from that league will make a jump to other leagues and get drafted there. I really just want to know what I'm missing here. There's probably a TerraByte worth of space taken up in these forums by conversations that argue that T1M is as good or better than MN High School - so where are the "watch" players from T1M? Or is this just a down year for that league?

...sincerely asking.
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Snap Happy



Joined: 25 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snap Happy wrote:
D6Rocks wrote:
Snap Happy wrote:
longdistancespectator8 wrote:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=74397

By this list there is 1 high school player in the entire country considered an 'A' player.
is there a separate list with USHL and tier 1 midget? Where is the representation of those leagues?


I posted that list earlier in the thread.
Ya I guess I saw that. And maybe my point is less about USHL than it is about Tier 1 Midget. Neither of these lists have any players from Detroit Little Ceasar's, Belle Tire, Russell Stover, etc. Maybe that's because there's a point where great players from that league will make a jump to other leagues and get drafted there. I really just want to know what I'm missing here. There's probably a TerraByte worth of space taken up in these forums by conversations that argue that T1M is as good or better than MN High School - so where are the "watch" players from T1M? Or is this just a down year for that league?

...sincerely asking.

Really... I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just looking for some answers... bump Wink

....anyone?
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O-townClown



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snap:

You are on to something. People down here disparage our Junior leagues. People in Minnesota get down on HS hockey. I guess the question isn't where are kids playing when they are 18, but where are they playing in the years leading up to it.

The sponsored Tier I Midget teams you mention have teams at U16 and U18. Obviously anyone on the list is too young to be drafted. First year U18s are too young too. The NHL prospects from those leagues often have moved on by then, which is similar to Minnesota HS hockey.

Some kids stay through 12 grade in Minnesota. Some of those kids get drafted. For the ones that move on to play elsewhere, it seems like virtually all played MN HS hockey at some point.
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SilverStick



Joined: 21 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does the Elite League differ from the Ron Woody/Harry Brown leagues of the middle '90's? Each fall I got to play weekend games with some of the top talent in the state. Kids would drive from Duluth and Rochester to play at Braemar. In the Spring of 1995 I got to play in a USHL scout league that didn't require facemasks and had 20 minute periods. Shep Harder and Jesse Sampair were on my team (both went D-1). I have to say that level of hockey was much faster and better than regular MN varsity action.
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