Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[hockey_is_a_choice]

Be careful what you ask for . . . The only reason that the MSHL hockey tournament is so special is because it attracts the best of Minnesota's high school hockey talent, minus the growing numbers who take a pass on high school hockey to: play in the USHL, train in the NTDP, move to Canada, or attend SSM or eastern prep hockey schools. If you force the privates to move up to AA or force them to fend for themselves you might not like the outcome, nor will the MSHL.

Imagine this hypothetical: The MSHL informs all private schools that they have to start a separate private school league. "Fine," says the chair of the board of trustees at one of our esteemed local metro prep schools that just happens to have its own ice arena.

"Now, we can form the local equivalent of SSM," says the headmaster to his board, which is comprised of some of the brightest and most successful business leaders in Minnesota.

"We can offer a day school option for local kids and we can develop a billet program to attract the best players from out of town," announces the headmaster.

"We can openly recruit and offer scholarships to make sure we attract some of the best players who otherwise would attend their local public high school," the headmaster tells the board.

"We will attract the best players because we will offer the best training and coaching; our academic programs are ranked higher than any other school in Minnesota," the chair of the board of trustees, a Fortune 50 senior executive, declares.

"We will develop a business plan that will expand our school's reputation nationally; our market research confirms that, through strategic partnerships with Minnesota Made and other similar feeder programs, many of the best Minnesota players will come to our program," confirms the school's marketing director.

If the metro version of SSM happened, the school's goal would be to attract the best Minnesota has to offer. If you take some (maybe not all) of Minnesota's remaining premier high school hockey players out of the storied Minnesota high school hockey program, do you really believe the MSHL would sell out the Xcel during a watered down tournament?

Do you believe the folks from TRF or Hermantown would buy those pricey suites at the Xcel?

Do you believe almost every premier hockey scout on the continent would attend the watered down high school tournament?

Have you ever considered that there are folks at one of Minnesota's metro prep schools who have a bigger plan, and those of you who want the privates to go elsewhere are playing into their ultimate plan--the metro equivalent of SSM?

Should STA move up? Yes.

Should all private schools be forced into AA? No!

Should any private school be forced to look outside the current scheme for competition? No!

This annual debate remains short sighted. There is a world outside of hockey. If the MSHL forces all private schools to compete at the AA level or prohibits them from competing in any state tournament or meet, the decision will apply to all sports. I doubt most of the swimming, cross country, track, and skiing parents care about this issue. The point is there are more people who don't care about Minnesota high school hockey than care about high school hockey. It's not always about us, especially when the changes some are advocating for on this board affect others who aren't associated with hockey.

Equally as important, as long as public schools are using public tax dollars and public facilities, the public schools and their sports governing body, the MSHL, do not get to legally discriminate against others. Remember, private school families pay taxes, too.

Most importantly, the reality is private schools competing at the A and AA levels in hockey generates drama, which generates interest, which, in turn, increases ticket sales and advertising sales.  This, of course, generates revenue for the MSHL. If I were the relationship partner for the outside accounting firm that advises the MSHL, I would tell the MSHL that they would be fools to mess with the current model.

For those of you who don't like the current model, can you prove with any certainty that tinkering with the current model will generate the same revenue? If so, please share that financial report with the rest of us. Further, I would like to see a legal opinion from one of Minnesota's best law firms advising the MSHL that it could treat private schools in a discriminatory, exclusionary manner while benefitting from public tax dollars and not be subject to an expensive, meritorious lawsuit. Until the requested accounting report and legal opinion are generated and made public, this debate won't--nor should it--warrant any serious consideration from people who actually decide the rules. Remember, unlike parents ( and grandparents) whose interests in the management of high school sports are biased and relatively short lived, the MSHL is charged with managing the best and long term interests of high school sports. I hope they listen to their professional advisers.

[MHGr8ness]

One player is quite small compared to a whole team.

ONLY POINT I was making someone stated name 1 player that didnt play youth hockey in HTown. Thats it.

ONLY POINT I was making is that one player is quite small compared to one team. By the way, you didn't even make your one point. You just said you know one family. You didn't name the player.

[rainier]

Be careful what you ask for . . . The only reason that the MSHL hockey tournament is so special is because it attracts the best of Minnesota's high school hockey talent, minus the growing numbers who take a pass on high school hockey to: play in the USHL, train in the NTDP, move to Canada, or attend SSM or eastern prep hockey schools. If you force the privates to move up to AA or force them to fend for themselves you might not like the outcome, nor will the MSHL.

Imagine this hypothetical: The MSHL informs all private schools that they have to start a separate private school league. "Fine," says the chair of the board of trustees at one of our esteemed local metro prep schools that just happens to have its own ice arena.

"Now, we can form the local equivalent of SSM," says the headmaster to his board, which is comprised of some of the brightest and most successful business leaders in Minnesota.

"We can offer a day school option for local kids and we can develop a billet program to attract the best players from out of town," announces the headmaster.

"We can openly recruit and offer scholarships to make sure we attract some of the best players who otherwise would attend their local public high school," the headmaster tells the board.

"We will attract the best players because we will offer the best training and coaching; our academic programs are ranked higher than any other school in Minnesota," the chair of the board of trustees, a Fortune 50 senior executive, declares.

"We will develop a business plan that will expand our school's reputation nationally; our market research confirms that, through strategic partnerships with Minnesota Made and other similar feeder programs, many of the best Minnesota players will come to our program," confirms the school's marketing director.

If the metro version of SSM happened, the school's goal would be to attract the best Minnesota has to offer. If you take some (maybe not all) of Minnesota's remaining premier high school hockey players out of the storied Minnesota high school hockey program, do you really believe the MSHL would sell out the Xcel during a watered down tournament?

Do you believe the folks from TRF or Hermantown would buy those pricey suites at the Xcel?

Do you believe almost every premier hockey scout on the continent would attend the watered down high school tournament?

Have you ever considered that there are folks at one of Minnesota's metro prep schools who have a bigger plan, and those of you who want the privates to go elsewhere are playing into their ultimate plan--the metro equivalent of SSM?

Should STA move up? Yes.

Should all private schools be forced into AA? No!

Should any private school be forced to look outside the current scheme for competition? No!

This annual debate remains short sighted. There is a world outside of hockey. If the MSHL forces all private schools to compete at the AA level or prohibits them from competing in any state tournament or meet, the decision will apply to all sports. I doubt most of the swimming, cross country, track, and skiing parents care about this issue. The point is there are more people who don't care about Minnesota high school hockey than care about high school hockey. It's not always about us, especially when the changes some are advocating for on this board affect others who aren't associated with hockey.

Equally as important, as long as public schools are using public tax dollars and public facilities, the public schools and their sports governing body, the MSHL, do not get to legally discriminate against others. Remember, private school families pay taxes, too.

Most importantly, the reality is private schools competing at the A and AA levels in hockey generates drama, which generates interest, which, in turn, increases ticket sales and advertising sales.  This, of course, generates revenue for the MSHL. If I were the relationship partner for the outside accounting firm that advises the MSHL, I would tell the MSHL that they would be fools to mess with the current model.

For those of you who don't like the current model, can you prove with any certainty that tinkering with the current model will generate the same revenue? If so, please share that financial report with the rest of us. Further, I would like to see a legal opinion from one of Minnesota's best law firms advising the MSHL that it could treat private schools in a discriminatory, exclusionary manner while benefitting from public tax dollars and not be subject to an expensive, meritorious lawsuit. Until the requested accounting report and legal opinion are generated and made public, this debate won't--nor should it--warrant any serious consideration from people who actually decide the rules. Remember, unlike parents ( and grandparents) whose interests in the management of high school sports are biased and relatively short lived, the MSHL is charged with managing the best and long term interests of high school sports. I hope they listen to their professional advisers.

On no Batman, there's another super team of Fortune 500 private school board members about to take their private school to AAA. HS hockey will be ruined! Noooooo!

Whatever. This threat is as empty as STA's titles. Some top talent will always go another route other than HS, but lots of kids will still always want to play with their friends in their communities, wear jeans and t-shirts to school, and save their religious activities for Sundays. Just because loyalty has no place in private schools doesn't mean it isn't still a strong value in other schools.

We shouldn't discriminate against private schools? Wasn't it the MSHSL that allowed the private schools to join back in the mid 70's? If anyone knows about discrimination, it would be the private schools. Can't pass the entrance exam? You can't attend. Can't afford tuition? You can't attend.

This whole "best and brightest" myth and "we can destroy MN HS hockey if we want to" act by private school clones is idiotic. Get over yourselves.

[hockey_is_a_choice]

Nice response. In any event, apparently you are unaware of the changes in the the laws during the sixties and early seventies. There was an emphasis by lawmakers and courts to make sure that people were not discriminated against on the basis of race, gender and religion, especially when public tax dollars were being used. The legal standards that applied prior to the early 1970s are not the standards that exist today.  

As far as private schools discriminating because you can't pass the entrance exam or pay tuition, I direct your attention to the University of Minnesota's admissions' department. I doubt that many of us could gain admission to the U based on today's entrance standards. And, if you don't pay the tuition, you're out the door. Next?

[Mite-dad]

hockey_is_a_choice, I'd argue that it takes the drama out of the A tournament. The games have pretty much become a mere formality to the trophy presentation to the private school.

[rainier]

Nice response. In any event, apparently you are unaware of the changes in the the laws during the sixties and early seventies. There was an emphasis by lawmakers and courts to make sure that people were not discriminated against on the basis of race, gender and religion, especially when public tax dollars were being used. The legal standards that applied prior to the early 1970s are not the standards that exist today.  

As far as private schools discriminating because you can't pass the entrance exam or pay tuition, I direct your attention to the University of Minnesota's admissions' department. I doubt that many of us could gain admission to the U based on today's entrance standards. And, if you don't pay the tuition, you're out the door. Next?

A university is not a high school, you are comparing apples to oranges. We as a society have decided that high school access is a fundamental right; access to university is not. Private schools have taken the public idea of an egalitarian educational environment that is open to all and representative of society and have warped it into an elitist, exclusionary environment that has limited resemblance to real world society. It is fine for them to do this, but to pretend it is not discriminatory is incorrect.

Sorry to tell you, the U is not that hard to get into. There are certain programs that have tougher standards, but as a whole it is not that difficult to gain admission. Kids that couldn't dream of getting into a top private high school get admitted to the U regularly. I obtained both my undergraduate and graduate degrees there, and I knew plenty of people with subpar academic records that got in.

So as long as public tax dollars are not being used, then it's okay to discriminate? Apparently it is, just look at private schools based on gender and religion.

I just find it amusing that many private school fans on here repeatedly say things like, "Life isn't fair." when others complain about the advantages they exploit, but as soon as someone suggests that the MSHSL make an adjustment to correct for this advantage, screams of "Unfair!" and "Discrimination!" come flying out of those very same mouths.

It is this attitude of entitlement that causes so many people to roll their eyes at you.

[stpaul]

Ranier, I don't think the issue is discrimination or fairness. I think the issue is the law. Private schools are members of the MSHSL and have been for 38 years. The MSHSL has a set of by-laws that would carry the force of law in a courtroom. The MSHSL won't and can't single out any one school, any group of schools or any single sport and make the kind of changes you all would like. They won't force STA and Breck into AA, they won't force private schools into a single section and they won't force private schools into a separate tournament. If they make changes they have to apply to all member schools and all sports.

I also disagree with HIAC. The private schools have no desire to become SSM. SSM is essentially a hockey academy. It's a good one, but BSM, HM and others have way more going on in addition to hockey. I guess if they got kicked out of the MSHSL they would consider such things but that's not going to happen any time soon.

So go ahead and argue for another 18 pages but just know that it is all hypothetical and there is no real movment out there to change anything. Catholic schools have won 12 of the last 13 titles in Massachusetts and they aren't changing anything. Minnesota has nowhere near that kind of competetive imbalance.

[pondhockey7]

Here is an option:

Four classes playing one week for one title
The frozen fours
Large school 4 top team
Large Private 4 top team
Small school 4 top teams
Small private 4 top

You get the top teams in each class from section play true seed the top 32 teams in each class. You have four conference champs (classes above) then the four fight for one state title[/img]

[MHGr8ness]

Ranier, I don't think the issue is discrimination or fairness. I think the issue is the law. Private schools are members of the MSHSL and have been for 38 years. The MSHSL has a set of by-laws that would carry the force of law in a courtroom. The MSHSL won't and can't single out any one school, any group of schools or any single sport and make the kind of changes you all would like. They won't force STA and Breck into AA, they won't force private schools into a single section and they won't force private schools into a separate tournament. If they make changes they have to apply to all member schools and all sports.

I also disagree with HIAC. The private schools have no desire to become SSM. SSM is essentially a hockey academy. It's a good one, but BSM, HM and others have way more going on in addition to hockey. I guess if they got kicked out of the MSHSL they would consider such things but that's not going to happen any time soon.

So go ahead and argue for another 18 pages but just know that it is all hypothetical and there is no real movment out there to change anything. Catholic schools have won 12 of the last 13 titles in Massachusetts and they aren't changing anything. Minnesota has nowhere near that kind of competetive imbalance.

Minnesota high school hockey is SOO much different from anywhere else that there's no way to compare them. Also, whether or not there is a movement he has a right to talk about it on here. That's the purpose of a forum.

Side point- Just because "life isn't fair" doesn't mean you can't make some things that fair or at least try. That's a terrible quote to fall back on. It's like a doctor saying people die, so let's not try to save anyone.

[moose jaw]

That is a lot of tough talk coming from hiac,with that power and clout behind them you would think they would have the backbone to move up,plus if they decided to make that kind of move to turn themselves into the next ssm where would they play come play-offs?they would have go sandbag the national bantam tournament.

[goldy313]

Private schools don't have "right" to be in the MSHSL neither do public schools for that matter, you join it on a voluntary basis and you don't have to be in it in every sport. Minneapolis North doesn't offer Nordic skiing, Duluth East doesn't offer wrestling, Shattuck-St. Mary's plays hockey outside of the MSHSL. The MSHSL doesn't provide a monopoly on sports, it's just a league made up of member schools.

If the MSHSL said all privates have to play AA, the private schools have then have 2 options; play AA or don't be in the MSHSL hockey league for post season tournaments. A few years ago Winona struggled to field a wrestling team, they choose not to compete as a team in the post season. At least two schools; St. Clair and Minneapolis Roosevelt, chose not to field varsity football teams for the post season last year. Winona Cotter did it as well in the past few years. There are schools in the MSHSL who choose not to participate in the post season tournaments, that is their choice.

The MSHSL currently uses enrollment as the determining factor in determining which school goes into which class, they have in the recent past added a multiplier for kids in the free and reduced lunch program which means it's not strictly an enrollment based system anymore. They could make other changes and probably will at some point as they make changes every few years.

[hockey_is_a_choice]

Ranier, thanks for the schooling, but you are wrong on almost every point. First, I am not comparing apples to oranges. The University of Minnesota is the largest institution of public learning in the State of Minnesota. The U, like every public school, depends on public tax dollars. The U, like public magnet schools or publicly administered gifted child programs, can eliminate students from consideration based on intelligence. Importantly, having an average income or average intelligence does not put you in a protected class under the laws in this state or country.

Second, as far as an entitlement attitude, I suspect you supported the Occupy Movement. If you think it is acceptable to use public tax dollars to fund sports programs that exclude students (or treat them differently) from families who pay taxes to support those programs merely because they attend private schools, then I suggest you look up the definition of entitlement in the dictionary. By the way, the first schools in this country were private schools. They formed the basis for the public school model. You and I benefitted from that model.

I applaud you for obtaining your undergraduate and graduate degrees from the U. I obtained my undergraduate degree from an eastern public institution and my doctorate from a private institution. I graduated from a local public high school. Significantly, unlike you, I don’t have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to private schools. If you don’t have the intellectual horsepower or bank account to attend private institutions, an incredible work ethic and a strong desire to succeed can still land you a corner office, on the bench, or a promotion to chief of staff.

Third, when people disagree with me, I use my intellect and don’t engage in personal attacks or highlight my lack of a credible argument or tolerance for people who disagree with me by rolling my eyes. Try that approach in a board room, in a court of law, in front of your boss, or in front of your spouse and see how it turns out for you.

Finally, you are entitled to your opinion, but, unless you are a voting member of the MSHL, you don’t have a vote. I suspect the MSHL will follow the advice of their professional advisors and maintain the current system.

As for your “On [sic] no batman” comment, I direct your attention to the new Duluth Marshall girls’ hockey program. I am not advocating for this approach to prep hockey. I agree with St. Paul--the metro private schools have more going for them than hockey. My scenario was a HYPOTHETICAL--no tough talk intended. But, if dropped from the current MSHL scheme, I suspect several of the private schools with their own rinks would have no choice but to find a different competitive option. Back to my original post, STA should move up because it is in their best interests to do so, but the rest of the private schools should not be forced to move to AA simply because we are all disappointed with STA’s administration’s decisions.

I’m exiting this debate now. I will let Ranier and others have the last words, but I will still continue to admire good public and private schools. I had a great time last week watching the class A and AA games at the Xcel. Best on ice comment during the tournament: Justin Kloos, during the BSM v. Lakeville South game, “Do you know that 8-0 is the most dangerous lead in hockey?” Lighten up folks, if a kid like Justin Kloos can interject some humor while he and his teammates are getting their butts kicked, we can respectfully agree to disagree.

[goldy313]

So go ahead and argue for another 18 pages but just know that it is all hypothetical and there is no real movment out there to change anything. Catholic schools have won 12 of the last 13 titles in Massachusetts and they aren't changing anything. Minnesota has nowhere near that kind of competetive imbalance.

That's a completely false statement. There has been a movement it is just slow, hockey didn't go to a 2 class system overnight. You're starting to hear more and more about it every year. Last year New Ulm's coach made a few statements, this year it came from Hermantown's coach and guess what, more people are agreeing with him. It doesn't hurt when people from Breck make ignorant comments either.

The Massachusettes system puts nearly all private schools in the top division (1A) for hockey. Their 8 team state tournament has 7 private schools and 1 public school.

[stpaul]

Private schools don't have "right" to be in the MSHSL

Didn't say they have a right to be in the MSHSL. But if they're a member, they can't be singled out for different treatment. If placement in a class is based on enrollment, they can't force STA to AA without also moving Mahtomedi, Sibley, etc. If placement in a section is based on geography, they can't force private schools into one section. A court would enforce the by-laws if it came to that. I suppose they can change the bylaws but that would turn things upside down for all sports.

[stpaul]

The Massachusettes system puts nearly all private schools in the top division (1A) for hockey. Their 8 team state tournament has 7 private schools and 1 public school.

My point is still valid. Massachusetts high school hockey at it's Class 1A level is dominated by Catholic schools, but they do not have separate tournaments for public and private schools. The top public schools compete with them in Division IA and smaller Catholic schools still play in their Division II and III levels. However it a little bit of apples and oranges comparing MN to Mass. There are about 50 of the SSM type private academies in New England where most of the top players go. They have their own tournaments.

[mnhockey30]

Alright say this happened in the section 4a final Totino-Grace beats STA in the section final 2-1 instead of the other way around. Would we still be having this debate I believe so. Because when I look at it in Class A there is 2 private school teams Breck and STA and the same goes for Class AA. I get why people are arguing for private schools to go to AA but not all of them because some of the truly cannot compete against the AA schools. If you need proof look at the scores for the Tontino - Benilde game, Benilde beat them twice 6-2 and 6-0.

[Stealth]

Simple
Do the enrollment based on the gender of the children in the school to make a new enrolment curve. NOT THE TOTAL enrollment.

This many boys or girls equals a certain class in each sport.
Across the board would need to be done.

It will just weed a few out. Always allow a school to move up for the pride of playing with the bigger school.

[rainier]

Ranier, thanks for the schooling, but you are wrong on almost every point. First, I am not comparing apples to oranges. The University of Minnesota is the largest institution of public learning in the State of Minnesota. The U, like every public school, depends on public tax dollars. The U, like public magnet schools or publicly administered gifted child programs, can eliminate students from consideration based on intelligence. Importantly, having an average income or average intelligence does not put you in a protected class under the laws in this state or country.

It is apples to oranges, high schools are not universities. Your comparison is invalid.

Second, as far as an entitlement attitude, I suspect you supported the Occupy Movement. If you think it is acceptable to use public tax dollars to fund sports programs that exclude students (or treat them differently) from families who pay taxes to support those programs merely because they attend private schools, then I suggest you look up the definition of entitlement in the dictionary. By the way, the first schools in this country were private schools. They formed the basis for the public school model. You and I benefitted from that model.

Once again, public schools "owe" so much to private schools, please. I call it entitlement because private schools use resources unavailable to public schools to slant the competitive balance of hockey in their favor, which is "fair", and any suggestion to correct this is decried as "unfair." They feel they have a right to equal treatment despite the fact that they themselves created inequalities in the hockey system. Maybe a more precise definition of this would be "narcissism" rather than entitlement.

I applaud you for obtaining your undergraduate and graduate degrees from the U. I obtained my undergraduate degree from an eastern public institution and my doctorate from a private institution. I graduated from a local public high school. Significantly, unlike you, I don’t have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to private schools. If you don’t have the intellectual horsepower or bank account to attend private institutions, an incredible work ethic and a strong desire to succeed can still land you a corner office, on the bench, or a promotion to chief of staff.

I never had a chip on my shoulder until I encountered so many people trying to defend the indefensible: private schools dominating in A. I also applaud you for getting your degrees. And if you think it takes an incredible work ethic to succeed, you are mistaken. I see people in power positions everyday that got promoted by cronyism, butt-kissing, and/or luck. Your definition of success is not everyone else's.

Third, when people disagree with me, I use my intellect and don’t engage in personal attacks or highlight my lack of a credible argument or tolerance for people who disagree with me by rolling my eyes. Try that approach in a board room, in a court of law, in front of your boss, or in front of your spouse and see how it turns out for you.

You're right, an internet message board is no place to make fun of others or make statements that wouldn't be made in real life. Wait a minute...that's exactly the place for it! Come one now, just because you choose use your intellect doesn't mean you use it well. (Or that there was much of anything to use in the first place.)

I know I bring it on myself, but I kind of like arguing. I don't threaten or curse people out, I just try to make points with humor and what I think to be true. People burn me pretty good sometimes, so I try to throw it back at them. Despite my enthusiasm, I do realize it is only HS hockey.

Finally, you are entitled to your opinion, but, unless you are a voting member of the MSHL, you don’t have a vote. I suspect the MSHL will follow the advice of their professional advisors and maintain the current system.

Thanks for informing me I'm not an MSHSL official. It remains to be seen if they will make changes. They have been making all kinds of changes over the years, so to think they will "maintain the current system" is naive. I'm sure there was a long period of time where no one thought hockey would ever split into two classes, yet here we are. And I bet their advisors helped them make that decision.

As for your “On [sic] no batman” comment, I direct your attention to the new Duluth Marshall girls’ hockey program. I am not advocating for this approach to prep hockey. I agree with St. Paul--the metro private schools have more going for them than hockey. My scenario was a HYPOTHETICAL--no tough talk intended. But, if dropped from the current MSHL scheme, I suspect several of the private schools with their own rinks would have no choice but to find a different competitive option. Back to my original post, STA should move up because it is in their best interests to do so, but the rest of the private schools should not be forced to move to AA simply because we are all disappointed with STA’s administration’s decisions.

Agreed. I am also disappointed by STA's administration, not the kids or their families.

I’m exiting this debate now. I will let Ranier and others have the last words, but I will still continue to admire good public and private schools. I had a great time last week watching the class A and AA games at the Xcel. Best on ice comment during the tournament: Justin Kloos, during the BSM v. Lakeville South game, “Do you know that 8-0 is the most dangerous lead in hockey?” Lighten up folks, if a kid like Justin Kloos can interject some humor while he and his teammates are getting their butts kicked, we can respectfully agree to disagree.

I respectfully agree to disagree. And Justin Kloos is a great example to those who think private schools control the fate of MN HS hockey. Yet another kid chooses to pass up the "attractive" route so he can play with his friends and try to make the best of what his community has. Considering only 1 of the 27 Mr. Hockeys in MN history are from private schools, you'll forgive me if I don't see private schools going AAA as the hockey apocalypse.

[hocnut]

Someone explain what the privates can do that the publics can't. Can the kids come to school at a private after their Freshman year w/o their parents and still play?? What are the differences??

[goldy313]

In 2005 Illinois instituted a 1.65 multiplier for private schools, 37 private schools filed a law suit, the law suit was dismissed and the 1.65 mulitplier is in place. A few other states use a multiplier system as well, including Minnesota where it is only used for free and reduced lunch students.

FWIW it could be worse or better, depending on your perspective....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/201 ... ee-agency/

Florida has one of the harshest set of transfer rules and the FSHAA also actually investigates violations instead of leaving it up to the schools like Minnesota does.

[MHGr8ness]

if a kid like Justin Kloos can interject some humor while he and his teammates are getting their butts kicked, we can respectfully agree to disagree.

I don't understand how you draw this conclusion. What does what one player say about his team getting killed have to do with people agreeing to disagree on a forum?

[mnhockey30]

Someone explain what the privates can do that the publics can't. Can the kids come to school at a private after their Freshman year w/o their parents and still play?? What are the differences??

I just copied pasted this off the MSHSL website no clue the difference really.

Transfer Rule

Q. What questions should I ask of incoming transfer students in order to determine their eligibility?
A. In determining the eligibility status of a transfer you need to ask the following questions:

1. Where is the student transferring from?
Domestic Transfers: Students who are citizens of the United States who reside in a permanent residence with their parents or legal guardian(s) in the United States and are transferring from a high school in the United States to a school in Minnesota. Domestic students must meet one of the transfer provisions listed below.

A. 9th Grade Option: the student is enrolling in 9th grade for the first time;

B. Family Residence Change: the student transfers from one public school district attendance area to another public school district attendance area at any time during the calendar year in which there is a change of residence and occupancy in Minnesota by the student’s parents. If the student’s parents move from one public school district attendance area to another public school district attendance area, the student will be eligible in the new public school attendance area or a non-public school if the student transfers at the same time the student’s parents move.

If the parents move from one public school district attendance area to another, the student shall continue to be fully eligible if the student continues enrollment in the prior school for the balance of the current marking period or for the balance of the academic school year. If the student elects either of the current enrollment options above, the student will be fully eligible upon transfer to the new school.

A student who elects not to transfer upon a parent’s change in residence shall continue to be eligible at the school in which the student is currently enrolled.

C. Court Ordered Residence Change for Child Protection: The student’s residence is changed pursuant to a child protection order placement in a foster home, or a juvenile court disposition order.

D. Custody of Student: A student of divorced parents who have joint physical custody of the student may move from one custodial parent to the other custodial parent and be fully eligible at the time of the move. The student may utilize this provision only one time during grades 9-12 inclusive.

E. Move From Out of State: If a student’s parents move to Minnesota from a state or country outside of Minnesota and if the student moves at the same time the parent establishes a residence in a Minnesota public school district attendance area, the student shall be eligible at the first school the student attends in Minnesota.

F. Enrollment Options Program: A student who utilizes Minnesota Statute 124D.03 Enrollment Options Program, and transfers without a corresponding change of residence by the student’s parents shall elect one of the following:

1) retain full eligibility for varsity competition for one (1) calendar year at the school where the student was enrolled prior to the transfer after which time the student shall become fully eligible at the school to which the student has open enrolled; or

2) be eligible only at the non-varsity level in the school to which the student has open enrolled for one (1) calendar year.

2. Is the student in good standing?
You must have the school from which the student transfers state the student’s eligibility standing at the time the student withdrew from school. The MSHSL website has a form letter that may be used for this purpose.

3. Does the student meet the other eligibility requirements?

Age: The student must be nineteen years of age, or younger, to begin a season. A student who turns 20 during the season may complete the season but may not start a new sport season. (See Age Bylaw 101.)

Semesters: The student must not have been enrolled for more than 8 semesters ( four (4) years) since beginning the 9 th grade. All semesters must be consecutive regardless of the student’s attendance. Did the student ever repeat a grade? (See Semester ylaw110.)

Graduate: The student must not have graduated from high school or completed the terminal grade, including foreign schools or earned a GED. (See Graduate of Secondary School Bylaw 106.)

Scholastic Eligibility: The student must be making satisfactory progress toward the previous school’s requirements for graduation. (See Scholastic Eligibility Bylaw 108)

Seasons: The student is limited to 4 seasons of participation in a sport beginning in the 9 th grade. (See Seasons Bylaw 109.)

4. Was the student ineligible for any reason at the previous school?
If so, the student will be ineligible in the new school until the penalty would have been served in the student’s previous school. Schools must respect and enforce the previous school’s determination of ineligibility and enforce the previous school’s penalty. Students may not transfer from one school to another in order to regain their high school eligibility or to avoid a penalty imposed by their previous school.

[flatontheice]

Nice response. In any event, apparently you are unaware of the changes in the the laws during the sixties and early seventies. There was an emphasis by lawmakers and courts to make sure that people were not discriminated against on the basis of race, gender and religion, especially when public tax dollars were being used. The legal standards that applied prior to the early 1970s are not the standards that exist today.  

As far as private schools discriminating because you can't pass the entrance exam or pay tuition, I direct your attention to the University of Minnesota's admissions' department. I doubt that many of us could gain admission to the U based on today's entrance standards. And, if you don't pay the tuition, you're out the door. Next?

A university is not a high school, you are comparing apples to oranges. We as a society have decided that high school access is a fundamental right; access to university is not. Private schools have taken the public idea of an egalitarian educational environment that is open to all and representative of society and have warped it into an elitist, exclusionary environment that has limited resemblance to real world society. It is fine for them to do this, but to pretend it is not discriminatory is incorrect.

Sorry to tell you, the U is not that hard to get into. There are certain programs that have tougher standards, but as a whole it is not that difficult to gain admission. Kids that couldn't dream of getting into a top private high school get admitted to the U regularly. I obtained both my undergraduate and graduate degrees there, and I knew plenty of people with subpar academic records that got in.

So as long as public tax dollars are not being used, then it's okay to discriminate? Apparently it is, just look at private schools based on gender and religion.

I just find it amusing that many private school fans on here repeatedly say things like, "Life isn't fair." when others complain about the advantages they exploit, but as soon as someone suggests that the MSHSL make an adjustment to correct for this advantage, screams of "Unfair!" and "Discrimination!" come flying out of those very same mouths.

It is this attitude of entitlement that causes so many people to roll their eyes at you.

Here is how I look at it and I hope you can get help for your bitterness. A private high school education is just another part of the great free enterprise system in the US. It just is what it is, expensive, and debatable as to the long term benefits. Calling it "discrimination" because there are minimum entrance standards is a comical argument at best. Is Murray's Steakhouse "discriminatory" because the price of a filet is 3x what it should be? Do you call air travel "discriminatory" because its faster and more expensive than driving? Don't come on here an pontificate your so called expertise on the "discriminatory" intentions of private schools just because you are upset they win hockey games. It really has nothing to do with how administrators at these schools even view the world. Hockey is a minor and I mean minor part of their average day. I would be much more upset at the Ken Pauly's ,Vanellis and Larson's of the world as they are the ones that self feed their own egos under the guise of being great coaches when deep down they know they have all the cards and the jokers too. And lets be clear, I am not calling them bad coaches simply pointing out that they come to battle every day with a gun for a knife fight. I don't know if they are good coaches and probably never will.

[warriors41]

So go ahead and argue for another 18 pages but just know that it is all hypothetical and there is no real movment out there to change anything. Catholic schools have won 12 of the last 13 titles in Massachusetts and they aren't changing anything. Minnesota has nowhere near that kind of competetive imbalance.

That's a completely false statement. There has been a movement it is just slow, hockey didn't go to a 2 class system overnight. You're starting to hear more and more about it every year. Last year New Ulm's coach made a few statements, this year it came from Hermantown's coach and guess what, more people are agreeing with him. It doesn't hurt when people from Breck make ignorant comments either.

The Massachusettes system puts nearly all private schools in the top division (1A) for hockey. Their 8 team state tournament has 7 private schools and 1 public school.

Where are all the other posters that normally insist that Minnesota hockey is different from every other sport in the world? Are we letting this one slide?

[HockeyBum]

Hermantown Registered at the Youth Level in 2011-2012 season was approx. 340 players, that includes the Girls programs and Ice Mites thru Bantams. This year our High School team will lose 12 seniors and 21 players will move up from Bantams to HS JV in 2012-2013. This places Hermantown with approx. 42 players trying out for the 34 player rosters of JV & Varsity next year of which 21 are returners. They will cut approx. 8 players.

Of the youth players approx. 40 of them are girls that play in a co-operative with Proctor at the U10 & U12 levels.

Hermantown School's Open enrollment is closed as of 2010 so if you want to play in Hermantown you have to live here.

There are very few open enrolled players and the majority have transferred from Proctor, moved from somewhere else or a couple have set the one yr open enrollment from a couple years ago.

This program does not recruit and is mostly home grown players. The youth level coaching staffs is great and most players and parents have the heart that it takes to be a successful program.

My opinion is that private schools should be welcome in the 1A class tourney but they have to have the same intended rules apply. If a public school student open enrolls they sit 1 years before having varsity eligibility. How does this impact the private schools.

This year in the Prep Sports rag it grouped Breck, STA & Hermantown into the same grouping that should move to 2A.

With that said it seems people want to get rid of talented teams that have success. Look back in the history of the state tourney. Teams that use to be powerhouses had a 4-5 yr life, the someone else move to the top of the pile. Do we continue to filter the top performers out and up to 2A. Sooner or later we would be back to a single tourney with few lower level talented teams ever getting past a sectional play in game and a lot of teams never making it to state. If you path to state includes getting rid of the competitive teams then you fit into the same class of cheater you are labeling private schools with.

I say make sure the rules are enforced equally and if it takes a multiplier on an all-boys school to double their enrollment then do it. The smaller schools would still fit the 1A mold. If you only want to move successful team then you really don’t want to compete.....