Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[rainier]

Here is how I look at it and I hope you can get help for your bitterness. A private high school education is just another part of the great free enterprise system in the US. It just is what it is, expensive, and debatable as to the long term benefits. Calling it "discrimination" because there are minimum entrance standards is a comical argument at best. Is Murray's Steakhouse "discriminatory" because the price of a filet is 3x what it should be? Do you call air travel "discriminatory" because its faster and more expensive than driving? Don't come on here an pontificate your so called expertise on the "discriminatory" intentions of private schools just because you are upset they win hockey games. It really has nothing to do with how administrators at these schools even view the world. Hockey is a minor and I mean minor part of their average day. I would be much more upset at the Ken Pauly's ,Vanellis and Larson's of the world as they are the ones that self feed their own egos under the guise of being great coaches when deep down they know they have all the cards and the jokers too. And lets be clear, I am not calling them bad coaches simply pointing out that they come to battle every day with a gun for a knife fight. I don't know if they are good coaches and probably never will.

Schools were not designed to be a part of the "great free enterprise system" you mention. The free enterprise system is amoral, something you do not want your schools and kids to be. And a child's education is too important to leave open to the vagaries of the free market. You see education as a business, I see it as an institution meant to encourage the development of kids of all abilities, not just the chosen few. Applying the "survival of the fittest" mentality doesn't work when your dealing with an 8 year old with a learning disability, at least in a civilized society it doesn't.

The private schools have set up their own system with resulting dynamics that are completely different than public schools, so why would it be so "unfair" for the MSHSL to enact policies that would correct for this?

I'm sure the coaches you mentioned are good coaches, they have been successful.

[hockey59]

STA and BRECK have (obviously) reached the level as a hockey program... where they should be playing AA hockey against the BEST. I for one do not think they should be forced to play AA...I think they should WANT to play AA. While STA and BRECK were likely in the right class in 2005...clearly they no longer are now. If both can't (technically) opt up in 2012-2013...then both should do it in 2013-2014. Seems to me STA and BRECK simply need to set their sights HIGHER.

Will this same debate apply to other Class A teams in future years? Absolutely...but I suggest we cross those bridges..then

FINAL THOUGHT: When a team wins a State title its supposed to be "HARD" to do. It's the "HARD" that makes it great!

[east hockey]

STA and BRECK have (obviously) reached the level as a hockey program... where they should be playing AA hockey against the BEST. I for one do not think they should be forced to play AA...I think they should WANT to play AA. While STA and BRECK were likely in the right class in 2005...clearly they no longer are now. If both can't (technically) opt up in 2012-2013...then both should do it in 2013-2014. Seems to me STA and BRECK simply need to set their sights HIGHER.

Will this same debate apply to other Class A teams in future years? Absolutely...but I suggest we cross those bridges..then

FINAL THOUGHT: When a team wins a State title its supposed to be "HARD" to do. It's the "HARD" that makes it great!

Great Tom Hanks "A League of Their Own" reference!

Lee

[hockey59]

YOU CALLED IT EAST HOCKEY!

And what Tom Hanks said to Genna Davis...applies just as well to HS Boys Hockey in MN.

[hockeyrocks]

Wow, its been a while since we've seen a twenty pager. Nice Job!

Simple. Start a petition requesting Cadets man up and move to AA and present it to the MSHSL and the administration at STA the rest of this will likely go away. An easy way to get it going is to play the BS clip of Vannelli at the press conference. What a pompous D-bag.

[HShockeywatcher]

The MSHSL currently uses enrollment as the determining factor in determining which school goes into which class, they have in the recent past added a multiplier for kids in the free and reduced lunch program which means it's not strictly an enrollment based system anymore. They could make other changes and probably will at some point as they make changes every few years.

In 2005 Illinois instituted a 1.65 multiplier for private schools, 37 private schools filed a law suit, the law suit was dismissed and the 1.65 mulitplier is in place. A few other states use a multiplier system as well, including Minnesota where it is only used for free and reduced lunch students.

Why don't people simply suggest a change in this instead of pointing fingers? If the 1.65 Illinois used were used here things would be quite different. There are so many things you could change to end up with the result you are hoping for.
(Personally I think it's silly to count so many students who never end up playing sports, but that's just me.)

And all you Hermantown Fans out there. Just because "OPEN ENROLLMENT" is closed doesn't mean you don't draw to your area. I know a family that moved there for that reason.

One player is quite small compared to a whole team.

That is the whole point though. Do private schools need to attract a whole team to their program? The year after St Thomas had a new rink on campus they had all of TWO transfers and won 11 more games.
If you honestly think one player doesn't make a difference, look at Lakeville South this year.

I just find it amusing that many private school fans on here repeatedly say things like, "Life isn't fair." when others complain about the advantages they exploit, but as soon as someone suggests that the MSHSL make an adjustment to correct for this advantage, screams of "Unfair!" and "Discrimination!" come flying out of those very same mouths.

It is this attitude of entitlement that causes so many people to roll their eyes at you.

Find those quotes.
20 pages in and I haven't said anything about unfair, nor has anyone I've read.

I would be much more upset at the Ken Pauly's ,Vanellis and Larson's of the world as they are the ones that self feed their own egos under the guise of being great coaches when deep down they know they have all the cards and the jokers too. And lets be clear, I am not calling them bad coaches simply pointing out that they come to battle every day with a gun for a knife fight. I don't know if they are good coaches and probably never will.

So, the only coaches that are good are the ones who have bad players come to their programs and win with them?

Someone explain what the privates can do that the publics can't. Can the kids come to school at a private after their Freshman year w/o their parents and still play?? What are the differences??

Ultimately, nothing.

[MHGr8ness]

Ultimately, nothing.[/quote]

You're right all of the success by the privates despite the small percentage of them is just coincidence.

[PuckRanger]

That is the whole point though. Do private schools need to attract a whole team to their program? The year after St Thomas had a new rink on campus they had all of TWO transfers and won 11 more games.
If you honestly think one player doesn't make a difference, look at Lakeville South this year.

The new rink isn't relevant. That's not what draws them there (BSM doesn't have their own rink). ALL players on STA's varsity team were brought in from someone else's youth hockey association. You think an average or below average hockey player is going to transfer over there to play hockey? No! The possibility of making the team is too low and if he did, he would rarely play. However, if he transferred to almost any public "A" school, he could likely make the team as a 2nd or 3rd liner. Therein lies the difference between "AA" and "A" schools and is why STA is on par with "AA", not "A".

Using a Mr. Hockey winner who just had the 8th highest scoring season in MSHSL history is an extreme example... and the rest of that LVS team wasn't exactly terrible.

[hocnut]

So tell me which is correct - In a public school if you are 9th grade or older to be eligible to play that same year you have to have a parent move to that school district with you. Is this the same for privates?? At the end of the day I believe that public schools will continue to win State Championships, more so in AA. For those of you that are so pis*ed off this is what smaller schools in AA have dealt with forever. Teams like Grand Rapids and Roseau small schools in AA playing large powerhouses like the Edina's and ya Hill Murray take great pride in beating them. It's for a State Title and to be the best ya gotta beat the best. Is it fair? I don't know the answer to that yet but I do know that our kids can compete, not every single year but typically they can compete. Hate the privates, hell ya but go out and beat them that's the best way to handle it. I highly doubt that the MSHSL is going to jacksh*t about any of this so us publics better find ways to beat them.

[HShockeywatcher]

That is the whole point though. Do private schools need to attract a whole team to their program? The year after St Thomas had a new rink on campus they had all of TWO transfers and won 11 more games.
If you honestly think one player doesn't make a difference, look at Lakeville South this year.

The new rink isn't relevant. That's not what draws them there (BSM doesn't have their own rink). ALL players on STA's varsity team were brought in from someone else's youth hockey association. You think an average or below average hockey player is going to transfer over there to play hockey? No! The possibility of making the team is too low and if he did, he would rarely play. However, if he transferred to almost any public "A" school, he could likely make the team as a 2nd or 3rd liner. Therein lies the difference between "AA" and "A" schools and is why STA is on par with "AA", not "A".

Using a Mr. Hockey winner who just had the 8th highest scoring season in MSHSL history is an extreme example... and the rest of that LVS team wasn't exactly terrible.

If you think the rink is irrelevant, than what was it? The terrible coaches? Those were the only two things that changed...

You're right; students who are average or below average hockey players are going to transfer over there and attempt to play hockey. Now it may be slightly different than it was 7 years ago but it isn't only top end players that attend the school.

You think it's an extreme example? How? Because one player can make the difference on a team? Take two players (heck, even one) off the first St Thomas team that won a title, and there is likely no title.
Heck, I'd be willing to make the bold statement: "if there had been no hockey players who would've gone to Lakeville South end up enrolling at St Thomas, the title count would likely be two or three less."

Someone explain what the privates can do that the publics can't. Can the kids come to school at a private after their Freshman year w/o their parents and still play?? What are the differences??

Ultimately, nothing.

You're right; all of the success by the privates despite the small percentage of them is just coincidence.

The question wasn't "are there things private schools are doing that public schools aren't?" it was whether or not they have the ability to.

[hocnut]

The ability to do what?? I know that Warroad recruits hockey players and they aren't a private school but there are rules that have to be followed for them to do this. Do the privates have to follow the same rules in this regard, just an example i'm not callking anyone out here but the Jungles kid that plays for BSM he played his youth hockey for Edina. Did his parents have to move for him to play at BSM?

[hockey59]

If only the energy devoted to this thread...could be channeled to fix the CRITICAL ERROR problem on this website

I mean its got to the point where anything longer than a ten word post...I person needs to basically type it into a WORD document and copy/paste in to avoid losing what you wrote.

Lee...Karl...what gives...why does this CRITICAL ERROR occur some frequently?

[karl(east)]

If only the energy devoted to this thread...could be channeled to fix the CRITICAL ERROR problem on this website

I mean its got to the point where anything longer than a ten word post...I person needs to basically type it into a WORD document and copy/paste in to avoid losing what you wrote.

Lee...Karl...what gives...why does this CRITICAL ERROR occur some frequently?

It seems vaguely related to the level of traffic on the forum, and is also worse at certain times of day for reasons we don't entirely understand. Maybe now that the season is over we can talk to Mitch about finding a real solution.

And FYI, if you are posting something and get the Critical Error, wait a minute or two and hit the refresh button. (Do this as many times as you need to for the Error to end.) Your post will still appear.

[gardetto]

The ability to do what?? I know that Warroad recruits hockey players and they aren't a private school but there are rules that have to be followed for them to do this. Do the privates have to follow the same rules in this regard, just an example i'm not callking anyone out here but the Jungles kid that plays for BSM he played his youth hockey for Edina. Did his parents have to move for him to play at BSM?

Read the MSHL rule book, If he or she went to BSM in 9th grade they can play. if the parents moved in 10th grade he can play, Yes privates follow the same rules, Warroad does also follow the rules. Think about it, you would have to move there or drive a long ways for hockey, AND if a HIGH school does not offer a sport YES you can play for whatever team that is close to your school just like they are doing up north now so they can field a team
However the schools involved have to work with the MSHL on these situations.

[defense]

That is the whole point though. Do private schools need to attract a whole team to their program? The year after St Thomas had a new rink on campus they had all of TWO transfers and won 11 more games.
If you honestly think one player doesn't make a difference, look at Lakeville South this year.

The new rink isn't relevant. That's not what draws them there (BSM doesn't have their own rink). ALL players on STA's varsity team were brought in from someone else's youth hockey association. You think an average or below average hockey player is going to transfer over there to play hockey? No! The possibility of making the team is too low and if he did, he would rarely play. However, if he transferred to almost any public "A" school, he could likely make the team as a 2nd or 3rd liner. Therein lies the difference between "AA" and "A" schools and is why STA is on par with "AA", not "A".

Using a Mr. Hockey winner who just had the 8th highest scoring season in MSHSL history is an extreme example... and the rest of that LVS team wasn't exactly terrible.

Most of the time though, you do need a playmaker.

[PuckU126]

You think an average or below average hockey player is going to transfer over there to play hockey? No!

You'd be surprised. That goes for a lot of private schools as well.

Not ALL players that transfer to private schools are high caliber.

Go to a captains practice or one of their try-out sessions. You would wonder, why were some of those players even out there?

[hocnut]

Thanks Gardetto.

[PuckRanger]

That is the whole point though. Do private schools need to attract a whole team to their program? The year after St Thomas had a new rink on campus they had all of TWO transfers and won 11 more games.
If you honestly think one player doesn't make a difference, look at Lakeville South this year.

The new rink isn't relevant. That's not what draws them there (BSM doesn't have their own rink). ALL players on STA's varsity team were brought in from someone else's youth hockey association. You think an average or below average hockey player is going to transfer over there to play hockey? No! The possibility of making the team is too low and if he did, he would rarely play. However, if he transferred to almost any public "A" school, he could likely make the team as a 2nd or 3rd liner. Therein lies the difference between "AA" and "A" schools and is why STA is on par with "AA", not "A".

Using a Mr. Hockey winner who just had the 8th highest scoring season in MSHSL history is an extreme example... and the rest of that LVS team wasn't exactly terrible.

If you think the rink is irrelevant, than what was it? The terrible coaches? Those were the only two things that changed...

You're right; students who are average or below average hockey players are going to transfer over there and attempt to play hockey. Now it may be slightly different than it was 7 years ago but it isn't only top end players that attend the school.

I do not know exactly what started the ball rolling, but it did coincide with the coaching change, which leads me to think that they began actively looking for players to improve the program and began bringing them in, following the lead of other schools (CDH, Marshall, BSM, H-M, etc.). Once it starts, it has an exponential growth effect. I watched the same thing happen with Duluth Marshall, who used to be a perennial doormat until the class split. I am confident its not the arena. They would have somewhere to play, regardless of whether or not the arena was built and other private schools have had plenty of success without their own arenas.

You think it's an extreme example? How? Because one player can make the difference on a team? Take two players (heck, even one) off the first St Thomas team that won a title, and there is likely no title.
Heck, I'd be willing to make the bold statement: "if there had been no hockey players who would've gone to Lakeville South end up enrolling at St Thomas, the title count would likely be two or three less."

I just disagree with that. Not much else I can say.

[HShockeywatcher]

The ability to do what?? I know that Warroad recruits hockey players and they aren't a private school but there are rules that have to be followed for them to do this. Do the privates have to follow the same rules in this regard, just an example i'm not callking anyone out here but the Jungles kid that plays for BSM he played his youth hockey for Edina. Did his parents have to move for him to play at BSM?

No, and they wouldn't have had to had he decided to play at Hopkins either. We have open enrollment in MN. Whatever "it" is that they are doing, public schools are able to do as well. And they should have an inherent advantage in doing so.

You think it's an extreme example? How? Because one player can make the difference on a team? Take two players (heck, even one) off the first St Thomas team that won a title, and there is likely no title.
Heck, I'd be willing to make the bold statement: "if there had been no hockey players who would've gone to Lakeville South end up enrolling at St Thomas, the title count would likely be two or three less."

I just disagree with that. Not much else I can say.

You disagree with what? That one player can make a difference? Or that St Thomas getting kids from Lakeville has helped? Is Jordan Schroeder an extreme example too? Or how about Zach Schroeder and AJ Reid from last year's team? (both from Lakeville)

[defense]

The fact is, a lot of times all a team is missing is a guy that can make a play, score a goal when needed.... just like an equal amount of times that a solid goalie is needed.
Hard as it is to admit, as we are all "team work" taught very young, that star player is a part of the "team"...and many times he is the piece that completes it.
Think about the most successfull teams once....which one's didn't have at least one stud playmaker....

[DotaDangler]

From the STA website.

Goals of Saint Thomas Academy

• The physical potential of each student is developed through a program of athletics, activities and instruction promoting health, safety, fitness and good sportsmanship.

Good Sportsmanship??

That was the worst display of sportsmanship I have ever seen at the high school level, any sport. The leader of the student section (you know, the fat guy in the front) ripping the hawk mascot's head off and tossing it to the wolves. Mocking the cheerleaders and the hawk dance. No respect for that school at all. Cheer for your team, don't rip on the other team.

Luckily we couldn't understand half their cheers.

"no one likes you... clap clap clapclapclap"

Not saying what they did was right, but you and everyone else clearly holds the STA student section to a double standard. If they have to deal with everyone chanting that they're gay and other nonsense like that, they can have a little fun with the other teams mascot.

[blueblood]

Maybe they should have their victory parade in downtown Lakeville

[PuckRanger]

You disagree with what? That one player can make a difference? Or that St Thomas getting kids from Lakeville has helped? Is Jordan Schroeder an extreme example too? Or how about Zach Schroeder and AJ Reid from last year's team? (both from Lakeville)

I disagree that they would have less titles. Maybe not the first one if Schroeder is not there, but that's debatable. I think he is an extreme example as well (how many kids make an impact like him on varsity in 8th grade?). Aside from that, my main point was depth.

Most of the good A teams can trot out an excellent first line with a stud or two on it. Its the 2nd and 3rd lines and depth at defense that they lack. While the 3rd line may not be the goal scoring threat for STA or Breck type teams, they are not a liability when they are on the ice like they are for teams like Hibbing and International Falls. That results in a lot of extra rest for the top lines and less pressure in the defensive zone throughout the game when these lines are forced to play.

Some public A programs, like Warroad in the past or Hermantown now, go through cycles where they have the numbers and talent to match this to an extent. However, this is rarely an issue for the class A private schools or for most AA schools. This is the advantage they have, they do not have to work with the talent (or lack thereof) that is presently in the system. They pretty much hand pick who gets in and who does not from top to bottom of the roster.

Hockeywatcher, it is clear that you, and several others, have never been part of a community youth hockey association (not trying to bash you here, just pointing out that there is a lack of understanding and rightfully so). Even if it were possible for a public school to import an entire team, the coach would not last long if he threw out all the home grown players in favor of a bunch of transfers. In fact, he and his entire family might be run out of town entirely.

For class A schools with association hockey you can look at Peewee and Bantam teams in your area at those age groups and get a pretty good idea of the high school scene will look in a few years. With the private schools, you cannot. You know which schools will be good, because they have reputations that will draw in talent.

Another thing people overlook is that there are very few metro class A public schools for hockey. All the shuffling around like you may see from the AA metro schools (or even Duluth, Rochester, or St. Cloud) from town to town isn't quite as simple outside the metro area. Families can't just up and move to these other towns for hockey... that job ya need to pay for all the hockey stuff comes into play. Commuting daily from Coleraine to Hermantown just isn't realistic.

[shooter803]

Another thing people overlook is that there are very few metro class A public schools for hockey. All the shuffling around like you may see from the AA metro schools (or even Duluth, Rochester, or St. Cloud) from town to town isn't quite as simple outside the metro area. Families can't just up and move to these other towns for hockey... that job ya need to pay for all the hockey stuff comes into play. Commuting daily from Coleraine to Hermantown just isn't realistic

But from Greenway/Coleraine to Rapids or Proctor to Hermantown isnt too bad or from Duluth to Duluth

[PuckRanger]

Another thing people overlook is that there are very few metro class A public schools for hockey. All the shuffling around like you may see from the AA metro schools (or even Duluth, Rochester, or St. Cloud) from town to town isn't quite as simple outside the metro area. Families can't just up and move to these other towns for hockey... that job ya need to pay for all the hockey stuff comes into play. Commuting daily from Coleraine to Hermantown just isn't realistic

But from Greenway/Coleraine to Rapids or Proctor to Hermantown isnt too bad or from Duluth to Duluth

True, but Rapids is in AA and I was referring to the class A schools. I also mentioned the Duluth area as an exception. I didn't say it doesn't ever happen - it does. Just not on the same level as the metro area.