NTDP Tryouts - 2012

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Cost of the program is ZERO. I think they only need to pay to get to and from. The stickler is they now must sign a conrtact vowing to pay a pretty substantial sum if they walk away. Its now almost better to get the boot than quit.

The NTDP is a very prestigous invitation almost everywhere in the country besides minny, very few players turn it down outside of our state. No question thay get some of the top talent but lately there have been some real head scatchers as well. I think as a program there biggest concern should be the number of players heading for major juniors is increasing. I'd like to think USA hockey would prefer these kids at least take a shot at college, if not, why not just go major junior as a 17?

Neuuman · Post by **Neuuman** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:26 pm

[qA vast majority of those kids are going to play in the NHL[/quote]

I'd like to see some statistics on that - seems to me the last time I checked the USNTDP roster there were a WHOLE LOT of undersized players. Nothing against undersized players, but if you look at NHL rosters they just don't have too many of them. IMHO.

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:26 pm

keepyourheadup wrote:Cost of the program is ZERO. I think they only need to pay to get to and from. The stickler is they now must sign a conrtact vowing to pay a pretty substantial sum if they walk away. Its now almost better to get the boot than quit.

The NTDP is a very prestigous invitation almost everywhere in the country besides minny, very few players turn it down outside of our state. No question thay get some of the top talent but lately there have been some real head scatchers as well. I think as a program there biggest concern should be the number of players heading for major juniors is increasing. I'd like to think USA hockey would prefer these kids at least take a shot at college, if not, why not just go major junior as a 17?

The cost of the program is not zero. You pay for it in your USA Hockey fee all the way thru your youth hockey career. The amount of money the focus on a small group of players is, in my opinion, quite ridiculous.

Neuuman · Post by **Neuuman** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:29 pm

JDUBBS1280 wrote:
keepyourheadup wrote:Cost of the program is ZERO. I think they only need to pay to get to and from. The stickler is they now must sign a conrtact vowing to pay a pretty substantial sum if they walk away. Its now almost better to get the boot than quit.

The NTDP is a very prestigous invitation almost everywhere in the country besides minny, very few players turn it down outside of our state. No question thay get some of the top talent but lately there have been some real head scatchers as well. I think as a program there biggest concern should be the number of players heading for major juniors is increasing. I'd like to think USA hockey would prefer these kids at least take a shot at college, if not, why not just go major junior as a 17?
The cost of the program is not zero. You pay for it in your USA Hockey fee all the way thru your youth hockey career. The amount of money the focus on a small group of players is, in my opinion, quite ridiculous.

I think keepyourheadup meant the cost to the individual player is zero if he's invited to join the team. Depending on a families financial circumstance, I would be willing to bet that is a major factor. IMHO.

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:12 am

Your kidding right? Obviously the program does not run without funding. I assumed anybody of even average intelligence could figure that out. The cost for those players invited is ZERO. I guess if you throw in the one or two dollars from each year they registered with USA hockey it might be twenty bucks. So I stand corrected, it costs those fortunate enough to be invited about twenty bucks.

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:13 am

I do agree that pouring that much money into twenty two kids is a little ridiculous.

Mailman · Post by **Mailman** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:58 am

keepyourheadup wrote:Your kidding right? Obviously the program does not run without funding. I assumed anybody of even average intelligence could figure that out. The cost for those players invited is ZERO. I guess if you throw in the one or two dollars from each year they registered with USA hockey it might be twenty bucks. So I stand corrected, it costs those fortunate enough to be invited about twenty bucks.

Last I checked, it was $40/year to register a youth hockey kid with USA Hockey.
That doesn't include the hundreds/thousands that can be spent on the tryouts, etc. for the process.

I am no fan of USA Hockey or the NDTP.

And no, I don't have a "dog" in the fight.

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:12 am

Not sure how valid this number is, but was told to me by a parent who's son tryed out and USA hockey offical stated it costs them about $20,000 per player per year. I believe they have 44 players between the 16 and 17 year old teams. My guess this would include all hockey essentials, travel, coaches and support staff salaries. Not a cheap program to have.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:49 am

A usntdp hat trick........... Grandpappy's, Uncle's and Pappy's

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:52 am

Neuuman wrote:[qA vast majority of those kids are going to play in the NHL

I'd like to see some statistics on that - seems to me the last time I checked the USNTDP roster there were a WHOLE LOT of undersized players. Nothing against undersized players, but if you look at NHL rosters they just don't have too many of them. IMHO.[/quote]

Look at who is getting drafted in the first round out of the NTDP.

2011

15. JT Miller - 6'1", 190 lbs
20. Connor Murphy - 6'3", 185 lbs
22. Tyler Biggs - 6'2", 200 lbs

2010

11. Jack Campbell - Goalie
15. Derek Forbort - 6'5", 195 lbs
22. Jarred Tinordi - 6'7", 212 lbs

In the 2010 Draft, Nick Bjugstad and Brock Nelson were also drafted in the first round. Neither of them played for the NTDP, and both are going to be solid pro players. The only difference is, USA Hockey isn't going to get paid by the NHL for "developing" [marketing] them.

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:56 am

keepyourheadup wrote:Your kidding right? Obviously the program does not run without funding. I assumed anybody of even average intelligence could figure that out. The cost for those players invited is ZERO. I guess if you throw in the one or two dollars from each year they registered with USA hockey it might be twenty bucks. So I stand corrected, it costs those fortunate enough to be invited about twenty bucks.

My point was, USA Hockey throws A LOT of money at a small group of players. If it's goal is genuinely to improve the overall level of play in this country and grow the game, they would probably be better served by spreading that money across a broader group of players. But that really isn't their primary goal. Their primary goal is to market the top US players to the NHL.

The NTDP isn't as much a "Development Program" as it is a marketing campaign.

Neuuman · Post by **Neuuman** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:42 am

You listed 6 players drafted in the first round over the last two years. My point was that, while being a first round draft pick is a good indicator of who PROBABLY will play in the National league, it hardly constitutes what I would consider a "vast majority". Vast majority implies significantly more than half the players will play in the National league. I just don't believe that. IMHO.

xy · Post by xy » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:35 am

Jdubbs, have you seen any concrete details as to how much support USA hockey gets financially from the NHL, and how much it varies depending on where players are drafted? I don't mean that to sound like I think you're full of it or anything - I'm sure they do get some compensation, but I'm honestly curious as to the amount, and I have no idea. It only makes sense that developmental fees are paid by to youth and junior hockey organizations producing the players that eventually reach the league; I know that goes on in sports like soccer. But is it thousands per player? Tens of thousands? An extra hundred thousand for a first-round pick? Enough so that all their public statements about developing top-level US players who can compete in international play are meaningless?

Again, I think it's obvious that they want their players drafted, and also that there is a financial aspect to this. But wouldn't getting players drafted also help prove that they're producing top-end players who compete at the highest international levels, which is the publicly stated goal? I agree that "follow the money" is generally good advice, but I just am not sure that it's the whole story here.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:32 am

To any of the folks that have a problem with USA Hockey's support of the Development Program, what should USA Hockey do with their resources?

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:00 am

Great question O-town, I've always felt they could tweek the program a little. Instead of just 22 kids at each level why not have maybe 4 times that many and make the the teams more regional. Say one in the east, Michigan, Minnesota, possibly Chicago or further south. Then try to integrate these teams into Junior leagues. I can only Imagine the cost of flying 22 kids to Austria to play for ten days in a international competition that no one back home cares about. Don't get me wrong, its a great experience for the kids but unless its the world Jrs do any of us care? If you've noticed Canada only sends teams to the major tournaments.

Hockey Canada spreads their resources on a greater number of players while USA hockey has now decided who they think will be in the NHL when kids are 16. I believe the program was started with the best of intentions but that the program we see today is not necessarily what USA hockey envisioned.

observer · Post by **observer** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:20 am

One might say Minnesota pays more than its share for development of players from other cities. With more members we know we pay more into the fund. Minnesota players decline some NTDP invites as they're comfortable with their current development in high school hockey. As someone mentioned, it unlikely a kid from San Diego, Dallas or Miami would ever decline the invite. We've heard the Minnesota kids are among the best at the National Camps yet fill fewer spots. If all the truly best players accepted would the teams be half Minnesotans? I think USA Hockey likes to give opportunities to kids from smaller hockey markets that may not be among the top 20 players at the camps because they don't have anywhere near the same opportunities for development as the Minnesota players. I'm kind of ok with that because staying home certainly doesn't hurt most Minnesota players but we do pay more so some would argue the spots could be granted based on contribution. Half the fees are raised from Minnesota members then half the team should be made up of Minnesota players. I'm sure the bottom half of these teams aren't close to what they could be if there were 6-8-10 of the best Minnesotans on each team.

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:10 pm

xy wrote:Jdubbs, have you seen any concrete details as to how much support USA hockey gets financially from the NHL, and how much it varies depending on where players are drafted? I don't mean that to sound like I think you're full of it or anything - I'm sure they do get some compensation, but I'm honestly curious as to the amount, and I have no idea. It only makes sense that developmental fees are paid by to youth and junior hockey organizations producing the players that eventually reach the league; I know that goes on in sports like soccer. But is it thousands per player? Tens of thousands? An extra hundred thousand for a first-round pick? Enough so that all their public statements about developing top-level US players who can compete in international play are meaningless?

Again, I think it's obvious that they want their players drafted, and also that there is a financial aspect to this. But wouldn't getting players drafted also help prove that they're producing top-end players who compete at the highest international levels, which is the publicly stated goal? I agree that "follow the money" is generally good advice, but I just am not sure that it's the whole story here.

I don't know the exact figures, but I do know that USA Hockey and the CHL are compensated by the NHL, and that the amount they are compensated depends on the number of players they "develop" who get drafted. And from what I was told, it is scaled depending on which round players are drafted.

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:15 pm

keepyourheadup wrote:Great question O-town, I've always felt they could tweek the program a little. Instead of just 22 kids at each level why not have maybe 4 times that many and make the the teams more regional. Say one in the east, Michigan, Minnesota, possibly Chicago or further south. Then try to integrate these teams into Junior leagues. I can only Imagine the cost of flying 22 kids to Austria to play for ten days in a international competition that no one back home cares about. Don't get me wrong, its a great experience for the kids but unless its the world Jrs do any of us care? If you've noticed Canada only sends teams to the major tournaments.

Hockey Canada spreads their resources on a greater number of players while USA hockey has now decided who they think will be in the NHL when kids are 16. I believe the program was started with the best of intentions but that the program we see today is not necessarily what USA hockey envisioned.

Great post.

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:17 pm

O-townClown wrote:To any of the folks that have a problem with USA Hockey's support of the Development Program, what should USA Hockey do with their resources?

They should spread the resources over a broader base of kids. Either have regional teams, or a tiered system if you want to keep the nation's best playing together.

nobama · Post by **nobama** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:27 pm

THE NATIONS BEST

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:21 pm

observer wrote:One might say Minnesota pays more than its share for development of players from other cities. With more members we know we pay more into the fund. Minnesota players decline some NTDP invites as they're comfortable with their current development in high school hockey. As someone mentioned, it unlikely a kid from San Diego, Dallas or Miami would ever decline the invite. We've heard the Minnesota kids are among the best at the National Camps yet fill fewer spots. If all the truly best players accepted would the teams be half Minnesotans? I think USA Hockey likes to give opportunities to kids from smaller hockey markets that may not be among the top 20 players at the camps because they don't have anywhere near the same opportunities for development as the Minnesota players. I'm kind of ok with that because staying home certainly doesn't hurt most Minnesota players but we do pay more so some would argue the spots could be granted based on contribution. Half the fees are raised from Minnesota members then half the team should be made up of Minnesota players. I'm sure the bottom half of these teams aren't close to what they could be if there were 6-8-10 of the best Minnesotans on each team.

Observer, you make some valid points in the middle, but the bookends of your statement are just flat-out preposterous.

"With more players"

The Minnesota district isn't even the largest.

Central - 58,163
Minnesota - 54,325
Michigan - 54,251

My district is considered insignifcant, but it has 42,988 members. That's 80% the size of Minnesota.

"Half of the fees..."

Minnesota is 11% of total USA Hockey registrations. It sure seems like they are getting fair representation by your rule.

The real story when you start looking at USA Hockey registration money is how much comes from adults and how little goes back to them. I don't think it gets one-tenth the scrutiny of the Development program. Minnesota only has 7,730 registered adults, less than 1/3rd of some other districts.

Some districts generate $500,000 or more in registration revenue annually from adults. Why no ire toward USA Hockey about that?

ticktacktonka · Post by **ticktacktonka** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:59 am

My question is how many players is the National Development actually sending to the NHL and I mean the big show, not the AHL. It seems that a lot of the players coming out of there are not having as much success at the college level (Travis Boyd comes to mind).

mngopherfan · Post by **mngopherfan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:16 am

ticktacktonka wrote:My question is how many players is the National Development actually sending to the NHL and I mean the big show, not the AHL. It seems that a lot of the players coming out of there are not having as much success at the college level (Travis Boyd comes to mind).

Quick to throw Boyd (who technically should be a Sr in HS) into that category... He was asked to play a shutdown 4th line role as a freshman and is doing so (very well i may add). Shortsightedness if i've ever seen it.

Plenty of players are doing well. Kesler, Kessel, Kane, Suter, Johnson...all are elite.

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:43 am

ticktacktonka wrote:My question is how many players is the National Development actually sending to the NHL and I mean the big show, not the AHL. It seems that a lot of the players coming out of there are not having as much success at the college level (Travis Boyd comes to mind).

Still pretty early to write Travis Boyd off. Sounds like he impressed at the Capital's camp, and is getting a lot of ice time as a frosh on a fairly deep Gopher team.

http://www.csnwashington.com/07/14/11/Y ... kID=541239

JDUBBS1280 · Post by **JDUBBS1280** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:44 am

mngopherfan wrote:
ticktacktonka wrote:My question is how many players is the National Development actually sending to the NHL and I mean the big show, not the AHL. It seems that a lot of the players coming out of there are not having as much success at the college level (Travis Boyd comes to mind).
Quick to throw Boyd (who technically should be a Sr in HS) into that category... He was asked to play a shutdown 4th line role as a freshman and is doing so (very well i may add). Shortsightedness if i've ever seen it.

Plenty of players are doing well. Kesler, Kessel, Kane, Suter, Johnson...all are elite.

Well said.