Goalies
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Goalies
Can someone explain to me how good the top goalies in Minnesota are, on a broader scale? It seems to me that even our best high school goalies don't end up playing college hockey. Maybe I'm wrong. But, I thought I recently heard, for example, that Bitzer was 'getting looks'. I assumed he would be recruited by a lot of colleges. Same with Tim Shaugnessy from Hill a couple of years back. Are all the superior goalies in Minnesota heading somewhere else to finish their high school careers?
There are not enough games for MN High School goalies... Take a look at a back up in the NAHL or USHL getting as many if not more games than the average starter in MSHSL... Goalies are judged based on consistency, the MN goalies who tend to advance on are the younger ones who still have at least 2 years of juniors eligibility. This is my biggest complaint about the MSHSL... Allow teams to work together in the summer under the coaches and participate in more competitive tournaments, and also eliminate the 25 game cap on the season. I would love to see the season expanded by a few weeks and move the cap to 40 games essentially creating a 2-3 game per week schedule over 12-15 weeks rather than 25 games over 10-12 weeks. I believe this would be Minnesota's biggest punch back to the midget leagues and players leaving to the USHL/NAHL.
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I think if you were to go back and look at the numbers you would find that Minnesota does not develop nearly as many top D1 and then pro goalies as you would expect. Certainly a lot less in percentage terms (of the total numbers playing) than forwards and defensemen.
I'm guessing the main reasons for this are:
a. The talent in our high school system is a lot more spread out, and so our goalies do not consistently face as difficult of shots as in junior or AAA club hockey in other states where the talent is more concentrated, and
b. At the high school level not enough goalies receive top quality coaching as the specialized instruction that goalies elsewhere receive. High schools are on a budget and adding an experienced goalie coach (who himself has played at a high level) is more the exception than the norm.
Just my thoughts - others may disagree.
I'm guessing the main reasons for this are:
a. The talent in our high school system is a lot more spread out, and so our goalies do not consistently face as difficult of shots as in junior or AAA club hockey in other states where the talent is more concentrated, and
b. At the high school level not enough goalies receive top quality coaching as the specialized instruction that goalies elsewhere receive. High schools are on a budget and adding an experienced goalie coach (who himself has played at a high level) is more the exception than the norm.
Just my thoughts - others may disagree.
Most goalies who are denoted as "good" will leave early to juniors to get, as said earlier, more experience from a longer schedule and coaching that is more specialized. Some of what may happen as well with the "best" goalies not playing in college hockey is that often the "best" goalies are coming from powerhouse teams.
I think of it like this- A goalie playing for a top team will see high caliber shots in practice, but in a game their team will thwart the opposition. A drill (practice) goalie is much different than a game goalie. Maybe some players have issues when making the adjustment of playing for a high caliber team vs. lesser competition, into playing in a high caliber league where everyone is good.
To some degree as well, I think politics have some say in things. Some better goalies are forgotten because they did not play for a "big name" school/team so they did not get equally represented.
I would much rather take a look at a goalie who gets completely shelled in every game, rather than a goalie who plays for a team that is completely, through and through, good. An example would be this-
Schueler (spelling is not correct, but he played at Minneapolis Edison in the late 90's) was on a team that was a good squad, but played high competition. Don Lucia ended up knocking on his door asking him to play but he didn't (different reasons than hockey...) Regardless, they ended up with Adam Hauser and, speaking to a man from Greenway, he said he could not stop a bowling ball.
Obviously he's done well for himself, but there are many factors to consider in choosing an elite goalie.
I think of it like this- A goalie playing for a top team will see high caliber shots in practice, but in a game their team will thwart the opposition. A drill (practice) goalie is much different than a game goalie. Maybe some players have issues when making the adjustment of playing for a high caliber team vs. lesser competition, into playing in a high caliber league where everyone is good.
To some degree as well, I think politics have some say in things. Some better goalies are forgotten because they did not play for a "big name" school/team so they did not get equally represented.
I would much rather take a look at a goalie who gets completely shelled in every game, rather than a goalie who plays for a team that is completely, through and through, good. An example would be this-
Schueler (spelling is not correct, but he played at Minneapolis Edison in the late 90's) was on a team that was a good squad, but played high competition. Don Lucia ended up knocking on his door asking him to play but he didn't (different reasons than hockey...) Regardless, they ended up with Adam Hauser and, speaking to a man from Greenway, he said he could not stop a bowling ball.
Obviously he's done well for himself, but there are many factors to consider in choosing an elite goalie.
Interesting. I have heard that the current MN model is not ideal for developing great goaltenders, but also that goaltenders tend to develop later than players. I have often wondered how many goalies have gone to waste, sitting on the bench behind an upperclassman waiting for their Sr. year for their turn? Year after year some teams go to state with goaltenders that look good on paper (listed as top 10 on MN Hockey Hub), finish in the top 2 or 3 at state, and yet, never go on to play hockey after high school (I think there is something to the theory that playing behind an A team the entire way up is not the best thing for young goalies as they don't learn to face the fire, so to speak). So is a young goalie in MN better off leaving to play for AAA, MNJHL, or some other route?
I would say a young Minnesota goalie is best staying in high school, then to juniors, then onto college. (Of course pending whether they make a team at the junior/college level; for the sake of this being top goalies, we'll say they do) Development will happen either slowly or quickly depending on the goaltender's game, ability, and work ethic. It is a VERY mature position so it is best (in my opinion) to let the kid's grow. They'll come out of high school with two or three years of juniors eligibility anyhow, there's no need to rush anything.puckhead58 wrote:Interesting. I have heard that the current MN model is not ideal for developing great goaltenders, but also that goaltenders tend to develop later than players. I have often wondered how many goalies have gone to waste, sitting on the bench behind an upperclassman waiting for their Sr. year for their turn? Year after year some teams go to state with goaltenders that look good on paper (listed as top 10 on MN Hockey Hub), finish in the top 2 or 3 at state, and yet, never go on to play hockey after high school (I think there is something to the theory that playing behind an A team the entire way up is not the best thing for young goalies as they don't learn to face the fire, so to speak). So is a young goalie in MN better off leaving to play for AAA, MNJHL, or some other route?
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Goalies
A couple Minnesota goalies come to mind. Stalock played for south st Paul a few years back, went to Minnesota Duluth, and only played at the university for two years before being gobbled up to the NHL. How about lee for st cloud state. He played at Roseau and went from there to a starter spot in college. Also university of minnesota had kangas a few years back. He played at Rochester century and juniors then at the university. He probably would have played at the NHL but got hurt right after college. In the nahl I remember seeing two or three Minnesota boys playing goalie. Can not remember names. This is just off the head. I bet if I did research I bet I could come up with quite a few more examples. [/list]
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You sent me digging for stats on those two.artifactually153 wrote:I've also pondered this. I remember Cloquet had two brimsek winners in like a five year span. (josh johnson and reid ellingson) both went to D1 colleges but hardly racked up the playing time. You'd think their talent alone would constitute a little more of a look than that.
Johnson: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... ?pid=69806 (though his senior year is missing--however, I think he was stuck behind Stalock that year) A bigger UMD fan than me might have a better idea of what happened there; he had a pretty decent start to his career, then sort of disappeared at the end.
Ellingson: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... pid=107677
Ellingson had a strange start to his career; he went straight to NMU, left for juniors midseason in search of a better option, but wound up back at NMU the next year. He certainly had a serviceable career, especially his junior year. I happened to be in Madison the weekend of Wisconsin's season-opening series against NMU, and went to the game; Ellingson still looked like the same old sharp goalie who ruined Duluth East's 2006 title run (albeit against a young, inexperienced Badger squad), so it's hard to say why he seemed to tail off. Still, I suspect he was good enough to catch on somewhere next year if he wants to continue his hockey career.
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For whatever this is worth. Brimsek award winners, by year, their high school, and college attended, if any (note: I poached this from a website, so not sure of its accuracy)
2012 Michael Bitzer Moorhead TBD
2011 Alex Lyon Lake of the Woods Yale
2010 Zane Gothberg Thief River Falls North Dakota
2009 Casey O'Connor Jefferson Augsburg College
2008 Joe Phillippi Hill-Murray St. Cloud State
2007 Reid Ellingson Cloquet Northern Michigan
2006 Austin Lee Jefferson Minnesota State Mankato
2005 Alec Richards Breck Yale
2004 Matt Lundin Apple Valley Maine/Mercyhurst
2003 Jon Anderson White Bear Lake N/A
2002 Josh Johnson Cloquet UMD
2001 Eric Aarnio White Bear Lake Nebraska-Omaha
2000 Jake Brandt Roseau North Dakota
1999 Adam Laksonen Cloquet N/A
1998 Adam Coole Duluth East UMD/St. Cloud State
1997 Kyle Koquist Duluth East Notre Dame
1996 Karl Goehring Apple Valley North Dakota
1995 Todd Kelzenburg Blaine Minnesota State Mankato
2012 Michael Bitzer Moorhead TBD
2011 Alex Lyon Lake of the Woods Yale
2010 Zane Gothberg Thief River Falls North Dakota
2009 Casey O'Connor Jefferson Augsburg College
2008 Joe Phillippi Hill-Murray St. Cloud State
2007 Reid Ellingson Cloquet Northern Michigan
2006 Austin Lee Jefferson Minnesota State Mankato
2005 Alec Richards Breck Yale
2004 Matt Lundin Apple Valley Maine/Mercyhurst
2003 Jon Anderson White Bear Lake N/A
2002 Josh Johnson Cloquet UMD
2001 Eric Aarnio White Bear Lake Nebraska-Omaha
2000 Jake Brandt Roseau North Dakota
1999 Adam Laksonen Cloquet N/A
1998 Adam Coole Duluth East UMD/St. Cloud State
1997 Kyle Koquist Duluth East Notre Dame
1996 Karl Goehring Apple Valley North Dakota
1995 Todd Kelzenburg Blaine Minnesota State Mankato
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All Minnesota
All three are Minnesota kids you know. Mcneely, Crandall, and gaffy.
Just an fyi
Just an fyi
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Thanks for that Karl. Good to see Reid had at least a decent college career. I grew up playing with him and TJ so it's good to know they both went somewhere with it. And it was great seeing them end east's season...but a shame those 06 & 07 teams couldn't beat rapids and get to the X.karl(east) wrote:You sent me digging for stats on those two.artifactually153 wrote:I've also pondered this. I remember Cloquet had two brimsek winners in like a five year span. (josh johnson and reid ellingson) both went to D1 colleges but hardly racked up the playing time. You'd think their talent alone would constitute a little more of a look than that.
Johnson: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... ?pid=69806 (though his senior year is missing--however, I think he was stuck behind Stalock that year) A bigger UMD fan than me might have a better idea of what happened there; he had a pretty decent start to his career, then sort of disappeared at the end.
Ellingson: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... pid=107677
Ellingson had a strange start to his career; he went straight to NMU, left for juniors midseason in search of a better option, but wound up back at NMU the next year. He certainly had a serviceable career, especially his junior year. I happened to be in Madison the weekend of Wisconsin's season-opening series against NMU, and went to the game; Ellingson still looked like the same old sharp goalie who ruined Duluth East's 2006 title run (albeit against a young, inexperienced Badger squad), so it's hard to say why he seemed to tail off. Still, I suspect he was good enough to catch on somewhere next year if he wants to continue his hockey career.
Here are the recent former MN HS goalies I know of that are committed to play D1 in the future. List suggests that D1 schools want MN HS goalies to play at least 2 years of Juniors - more games higher and higher level of competition.
Wilcox SSP 2 Years of Juniors Minnesota 2012
Kruger Minnetonka 2 Years of Juniors Dartmouth 2012
McNeely St. Thomas 3 Years of Juniors UMD 2012
Gothberg TRF 2 Years of Juniors North Dakota 2012
Meyers Benilde 2 years of Juniors Quinnipiac 2012
Alex Lyon LOW 2 years of Juniors Yale 2013
Wilcox SSP 2 Years of Juniors Minnesota 2012
Kruger Minnetonka 2 Years of Juniors Dartmouth 2012
McNeely St. Thomas 3 Years of Juniors UMD 2012
Gothberg TRF 2 Years of Juniors North Dakota 2012
Meyers Benilde 2 years of Juniors Quinnipiac 2012
Alex Lyon LOW 2 years of Juniors Yale 2013
Very nice to see another Minnesota High School goalie commit to a D1 program:
Alex Fons - Hopkins, NAHL to UMD..
http://www.nahl.com/news/story.cfm?id=5141
Alex Fons - Hopkins, NAHL to UMD..
http://www.nahl.com/news/story.cfm?id=5141
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Eric Hartzell from White Bear Lake has been the starter at Quinnipiac the past two seasons and presumably will be next year as he is only a junior and has played extremely well. He left after his junior year because he was behind Zach Faust on the WBL depth chart, then played three years of juniors at Sioux Falls before going to Quinnipiac.
http://www.quinnipiacbobcats.com/sports ... _eric_ml7s
Interesting to see a backup goalie in high school doing so well but I do remember hearing plenty of clamoring from the White Bear faithful to get Hartzell in. It would have been tough to sit Faust since he had played since he was a freshman and lord knows Sager isn't always the best judge of talent.
http://www.quinnipiacbobcats.com/sports ... _eric_ml7s
Interesting to see a backup goalie in high school doing so well but I do remember hearing plenty of clamoring from the White Bear faithful to get Hartzell in. It would have been tough to sit Faust since he had played since he was a freshman and lord knows Sager isn't always the best judge of talent.
Last edited by TheNightman on Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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he was always going to go to SF, his dad was the coach...TheNightman wrote:Eric Hartzell from White Bear Lake has been the starter at Quinnipiac the past two seasons and presumably will be next year as he is only a junior and has played extremely well. He left after his junior year because he was behind Zach Faust on the WBL depth chart, then played three years of juniors at Sioux Falls before going to Quinnipiac.
http://www.quinnipiacbobcats.com/sports ... _eric_ml7s
Interesting to see a backup goalie in high school doing so well but I do remember hearing plenty of clamoring from the White Bear faithful to get Hartzell in. It would have been tough to sit Faust since he had played since he was a freshman and lord knows Sager isn't always the best judge of talent.
After looking around a bit - I gathered some info on former Minnesota Goalies. I didnt know that this many were still playing - feel free to add missing names and I didnt look up D3 schools _ which I would assume there are probably 10-20 former Minnesota High School Goalies playing D3.
Current USHL
Alex Lyon
Zane Gothberg
Adam Wilcox
Matt McNelly
Colin Olson - U18
Hunter Miska - U17
Current NAHL
Jacob Myers
Tyler Bruggeman
Alex Fons
Ryan Coyne
Tommy Burke
Aaron Davis
Mike Taffe
Brock Kautz
Connor Girard
Shaughnessy
Jo Jo Jeanetta
Micheal Bitzer
Bodi Engum
Matt Laprade
Nicholas Lehr
Current BCHL
Jim Kruger
Current D1
Mike Lee
Micheal Shibrowski
Kent Patterson
Jake Kremer
Aaron Crandall
Christian Gaffy
Joe Phillipi
Nate hardy
Austin Lee
Joe Howe
Reid Ellingson
Eric Hartzell
Brady Hjelle
Paul Moberg
Keegan Asmundson - Canisus
Steve Epsten - Colgate
Current WHL
Mac Carruth
Current Pros
Alex Stalock - NHL
Joe Fallon - AHL
Jeff Frazee - AHL
Alec Richards - AHL
Riley Gill - ECHL
Jeff Jakaitis - ECHL
Mike Zacharias - ECHL
BJ O'Brien - So. Professional League
Jerad Kaufmann - Central Hockey league
Matt Lundin - Central Hockey League
Mark Guggenberger - Central Hockey League
Adam hauser - German Pro
Jordan Parise - 2.GBunn - Euro Pro League
John Curry - DEl - Euro pro League
Current USHL
Alex Lyon
Zane Gothberg
Adam Wilcox
Matt McNelly
Colin Olson - U18
Hunter Miska - U17
Current NAHL
Jacob Myers
Tyler Bruggeman
Alex Fons
Ryan Coyne
Tommy Burke
Aaron Davis
Mike Taffe
Brock Kautz
Connor Girard
Shaughnessy
Jo Jo Jeanetta
Micheal Bitzer
Bodi Engum
Matt Laprade
Nicholas Lehr
Current BCHL
Jim Kruger
Current D1
Mike Lee
Micheal Shibrowski
Kent Patterson
Jake Kremer
Aaron Crandall
Christian Gaffy
Joe Phillipi
Nate hardy
Austin Lee
Joe Howe
Reid Ellingson
Eric Hartzell
Brady Hjelle
Paul Moberg
Keegan Asmundson - Canisus
Steve Epsten - Colgate
Current WHL
Mac Carruth
Current Pros
Alex Stalock - NHL
Joe Fallon - AHL
Jeff Frazee - AHL
Alec Richards - AHL
Riley Gill - ECHL
Jeff Jakaitis - ECHL
Mike Zacharias - ECHL
BJ O'Brien - So. Professional League
Jerad Kaufmann - Central Hockey league
Matt Lundin - Central Hockey League
Mark Guggenberger - Central Hockey League
Adam hauser - German Pro
Jordan Parise - 2.GBunn - Euro Pro League
John Curry - DEl - Euro pro League
Last edited by SuperStar on Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.