Vadnais Sports Center might need taxpayer bailout

[warmskin]

http://m.startribune.com/local/?id=150697585

The 19-month-old sports center isn't taking in enough money to pay its bills and also is behind on sales-tax payments.
Article by: TIM HARLOW , Star Tribune

Updated: May 8, 2012 - 8:34 PM

The Vadnais Sports Center, controversial from the start, has sunk into a financial morass that has city leaders faced with the choice of cutting ties with the arena and defaulting on $26 million in bonds or assessing taxpayers $1 million to keep it running.

Revenues have fallen short of projections. Expenses have exceeded budget. And the center that officials promised Vadnais Heights residents would be able pay its own way without their help has been delinquent in remitting a year's worth of sales taxes to the state.

"I'm not sure we can afford this facility," said Council Member Joe Murphy. "It will be expensive to keep."

With two sheets of ice and the state's second-tallest dome covering a 100,000-square-foot turf field, the complex was supposed to become a destination that spurred economic development along Hwy. 61 and the surrounding area in the city in northern Ramsey County.

[DrGaf]

But they have a lobster claw machine ... how could this happen?!?!

[pioneers]

Revenues have fallen short of projections. Expenses have exceeded budget. And the center that officials promised Vadnais Heights residents would be able pay its own way without their help has been delinquent in remitting a year's worth of sales taxes to the state.

Surprise Surprise that this would happen to anything the government was involved in.

[warmskin]

It would be interesting if the Star Tribune did an expose on all the publicly or assocation owned areanas to see if any of them are making money or at least breaking even. I have heard Breamar and Bloomington Ice Gardens loose money and Eden Prairie might break even. I have a feeling none of the public areanas make any money. It is all public info so it should be easy to do.

[stpaul]

It's probably true that most arenas do not make money. The bad thing about Vadnais is that it costs $26 Million to build and there is a mortgage with $1/2 Million payments due twice a year. Plus it is the smaller City of Vadnais Heights that took this on. The Cities of WBL and WB Township together have 3 times the population of Vadnais Heights and have no part in this. Vadnais will have no choice but to eventually ask WBL and Ramsey County to help bail them out.

[warmskin]

I think what also has hurt the arena is its location. Obviously the city wanted it there but it is so far out in the eastern suburbs it is really too far for hockey programs in the western suburbs to buy ice.
Somebody could write a book on how to get public funding based on overly optimistic financial outlook. Look at how TCIF stadium was going to improve Gopher football (not) and bring in more revenue, Target Field best baseball stadium in US (worst major league baseball team), next the new (XXX) Stadium for the Vikings.

[O-townClown]

Surprise Surprise that this would happen to anything the government was involved in.

Okay, go ahead and open a for-profit rink in the Twin Cities. It's not that simple. I don't see how you can blame all government for this one. (I do see how blame can be placed on the municipality that went forward with this.)

The 'problem' - which isn't a problem at all - is that the rinks in the Twin Cities are almost all subsidized municipal rinks. The price for ice is artificially low. Is it any wonder an additional complex runs a shortfall when existing rinks often do?

[warmskin]

The issue is transparency and being realistic. When people want things built on the government dime there are often unrealistic expectations made to get facilities built. If most if not all publicly run arenas loose money how was VH convinced they could make money? As far as I know there are 3 privately owned arenas in the Twin Cities and only MN Made has NHL size rinks. It is a tough business and they have the added burden of paying property taxes.

[pioneers]

Surprise Surprise that this would happen to anything the government was involved in.

Okay, go ahead and open a for-profit rink in the Twin Cities. It's not that simple. I don't see how you can blame all government for this one. (I do see how blame can be placed on the municipality that went forward with this.)

The 'problem' - which isn't a problem at all - is that the rinks in the Twin Cities are almost all subsidized municipal rinks. The price for ice is artificially low. Is it any wonder an additional complex runs a shortfall when existing rinks often do?

I agree with you. The reason private industry does not open rinks and stadiums is because they do not make money. Unfortunately the taxpayers end up with the bill.

[BodyShots]

I think what also has hurt the arena is its location. Obviously the city wanted it there but it is so far out in the eastern suburbs it is really too far for hockey programs in the western suburbs to buy ice.
Somebody could write a book on how to get public funding based on overly optimistic financial outlook. Look at how TCIF stadium was going to improve Gopher football (not) and bring in more revenue, Target Field best baseball stadium in US (worst major league baseball team), next the new (XXX) Stadium for the Vikings.

I don't agree with your location comment. Do you realize the Hamline Hockey team calls this rink its home ice! Not just a hop, skip, and a jump away.

[wogggieee]

Its about a mile north of the 694 ring. It's not that far out. Eight minutes north of downtown st paul and less than a mile further out from downtown mpls than braemar, and the distance from the northwest burbs is negligible.

[formerlybackofnet]

On a side note, whoever designed the rink has never been to a hockey game. The seating is horrible. There is not one seat that is not obstructed view. I know it is nice for W.B. to have their own locker room and an their own home ice, but it is horrible for the fans. To leave a great arena like Aldrich for an arena like Vadnias is a tough move.

[The Enlightened One]

Hopefully stories like this will encourage people and communities who are building or trying to build rinks to sit back and take a look at what they really need for a rink and not just what they want. This complex is in the news now but I bet that there are plenty of rinks that are in the same boat as this one.

This is the same situation that many schools are in as well, build this big beautiful building(s) and then find out that you don't have the money to run them or to keep them up and then go back to the tax payers for more money. Hopefully somebody will figure this one out.

Side note, how much per hour does ice go for in places where the rinks are not owned by a city? Just curious.

[formerlybackofnet]

Sounds like this arena might be closed after the first of the year, then what?

[C-dad]

On a side note, whoever designed the rink has never been to a hockey game. The seating is horrible. There is not one seat that is not obstructed view. I know it is nice for W.B. to have their own locker room and an their own home ice, but it is horrible for the fans. To leave a great arena like Aldrich for an arena like Vadnias is a tough move.

It is also very wasteful in design. There is way too much square footage. What is the purpose of the mezzanine? How would that space ever generate any revenue? The concourse is nice, but too wide. Is the dome included in this whole issue? Domes are hard to make money on too and that one was empty the weekend we were there for a tourney. Given that arenas are barely break-even, they must be designed very tightly, no extra square feet, unless they generate revenue. Any "extras" must come from contributions or other funding source.

[Orty]

Question: Is the Schwan rink doing OK? Every time I'm up there there is a game going on our a tournament. I've also heard (unconfirmed) there are plans to add 4 additional sheets of ice on the north side. I never see a rink that's not being used.

Maybe the people at VH should get with the Schwan/NSC group to share some information??

Orty

[MNpuckBlog]

Question: Is the Schwan rink doing OK? Every time I'm up there there is a game going on our a tournament. I've also heard (unconfirmed) there are plans to add 4 additional sheets of ice on the north side. I never see a rink that's not being used.

Maybe the people at VH should get with the Schwan/NSC group to share some information??

Orty

NSC is constantly having tournaments as they can field larger tournaments with more age groups without worrying about limited ice. Also, in the winter there are a few high school teams that play/practice there, along with tournaments, youth teams, and figure skating. They also do a large number of camps and skating schools out of NSC.

[Shinbone_News]

NSC is constantly having tournaments as they can field larger tournaments with more age groups without worrying about limited ice. Also, in the winter there are a few high school teams that play/practice there, along with tournaments, youth teams, and figure skating. They also do a large number of camps and skating schools out of NSC.

Last time I checked, I think there were three high schools and three colleges (men and women) calling the Superink home -- and probably a few associations too???

They don't seem to have trouble keeping 8 sheets going.

I've often thought about how you could throw a puck from Fogerty to Schwan, and neither is vacant very often. It would surprise me only a little if they built four more sheets out there somewhere.

[BadgerBob82]

There are two issues. Operating costs and debt coverage. I thought I read ice rental is $175/hour? That is adequate to meet operating costs. Not sure what additional ice usage there is, but a rink can only be rented so many hours per day. (24 max) Throw out the 15 minute Zamboni time and you only have so many hours to collect revenue.

The problem is fairly obvious as the Dome. 4 fields renting at $175/hour? I'd like to see how often that is accomplished. Especially April - October.

My guess is operating costs are being covered. But no way debt service will be covered. $1,000,000 mortgage payment per year is about $2,700 per day. 24 hours in a day would be $115 per hour just to meet debt service. They would need to charge over $400/hour to meet operating cost AND debt service.

Hopefully they were smart and had the hockey arena and the Dome as separate entities. Foreclosure on the Dome won't impact the hockey arena?

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I see we have to get shoe-horned into that dump for the Hill-WB game again.

No good reason it can't be held at a venue that seats more. I'd even prefer the hideous barn on the State Fair grounds over the white elephant on Hwy 61.

[BadgerBob82]

Hill-Murrary should play all games at the Exel Center.

[BodyShots]

Hill-Murrary should play all games at the Exel Center.

Why, so each fan that attends can have their own bathroom?

[JSR]

What about the facility over there in Stillwater? They have two sheets and a turf field. How do they compare and how do they do on their deal? Is that city owned rather than privately?

[The Enlightened One]

The thing that stuck me about the Vadnis Heights facility was all of the extra space that seemed to be just extra space with no real reason for it and it did not seem to increase the functionality of the building. I think the real culprit here behind this is the architect. Look at the buildings that are going up now, ranging from schools (Duluth's new buildings come to mind) on to this facility and etc. They are being over built. Seems like in order to sell their idea they add on all of this eye candy that is not cheap that does not add to what the basic building is supposed to do (give you a place to play hockey or go to school) but does add onto the costs a bunch. The comparison was made to the NSC. Look at it, no wasted space, no pretty bells and whisltes, none of those extras that are going to get the building into Architect's Design Monthly (if there is such a magazine, I don't know) as the cover story but lots of highly functional hockey playing and hockey playing supporting spaces that are laid out very nice. I hate to say it as I know that I am gonna get ripped for saying it, but we need to go back to the old school designs for lots of these public buildings and stop this trend towards making them "pretty" at an added cost that just can't be supported now.

[wogggieee]

It appears that their web domain is for sale or at least not being occupied by their website anymore.