Vadnais Sports Center might need taxpayer bailout

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wbmd
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Post by wbmd » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:37 pm

Simple solution for the Vadnais Sports Center - tear it down and build something on the land that will make money.

PuckU126
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Post by PuckU126 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:03 pm

wbmd wrote:Simple solution for the Vadnais Sports Center - tear it down and build something on the land that will make money.
Where's the "like" button?

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Goalie-Dad
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Post by Goalie-Dad » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:26 pm

The Enlightened One wrote:The thing that stuck me about the Vadnis Heights facility was all of the extra space that seemed to be just extra space with no real reason for it and it did not seem to increase the functionality of the building. I think the real culprit here behind this is the architect. Look at the buildings that are going up now, ranging from schools (Duluth's new buildings come to mind) on to this facility and etc. They are being over built. Seems like in order to sell their idea they add on all of this eye candy that is not cheap that does not add to what the basic building is supposed to do (give you a place to play hockey or go to school) but does add onto the costs a bunch. The comparison was made to the NSC. Look at it, no wasted space, no pretty bells and whisltes, none of those extras that are going to get the building into Architect's Design Monthly (if there is such a magazine, I don't know) as the cover story but lots of highly functional hockey playing and hockey playing supporting spaces that are laid out very nice. I hate to say it as I know that I am gonna get ripped for saying it, but we need to go back to the old school designs for lots of these public buildings and stop this trend towards making them "pretty" at an added cost that just can't be supported now.
As an architect, I need to defend our profession against this type of thinking. Architects can produce "eye candy" and help owner's sell a project. HOWEVER, architects have nothing to do with financing capital costs, establishing debt service or paying operating costs. If you research the history of the Vadnais Arena, the financing was miss-managed from the beginning . . .long before the architect became involved. These projects are extremely budget driven, the floor plans, design and finishes are vetted to make sure these items are the best value for the owner.

The success of the NSC is because the management is in the business to promote, organize and schedule hockey. The success has nothing to do with the design of the arena. Nearly every other arena is owned and run by city or county municipalities. City and counties are not in business to to run hockey arenas.

By the way the national journal for architects is called ARCHITECT.

observer
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Post by observer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:05 pm

This story is sad and confuses me. I know there are other hockey facilities that have faced financial challenges but none to the extent of this one. It seems to come down to smart and aggressive management. The facility is beautiful. Without knowing all the details it seems to me that with a solid manager it could get to break even and then profitability. For a hockey/athletic facility to face failure in the middle of a hockey and soccer hotbed isn't good for any of us. Try and get funding for your own improvements or expansion and this story will be thrown in your face.

As fans of hockey we all need to do what we can to help this facility succeed. I know they're in deep but maybe if the 10 closet associations booked some extra rink hours there, along with some birthday parties, soccer, football, lacrosse and baseball practices we could all help.

oldschoolpuckster
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Post by oldschoolpuckster » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:35 pm

WOW!! Architect and a goalie dad....strikes one and two :)
If you have a cat....you are out!!!

Zamman
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Post by Zamman » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:27 am

Simple fact is there are too many ice arenas in the twin cities. Wait till the Wild get their practice facility across from the X. Say goodbye to tournaments and other skating functions at smaller local rinks. Even some of the larger ones will lose on this deal...Vadnais Heights is already in this situation. Should not have even been built. The Associations and high schools were fine for how many year?

Ready2GoYet
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Post by Ready2GoYet » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:34 pm

I would agree that the number of rinks is currently outpacing the demand creating financial hardships for either older rinks (usually have higher operating costs) or for those rinks paying off mortgages. Too many groups do not do an appropriate market analysis prior to building new or adding a second or third sheet of ice, or if one is done, it is often done by the same firms that then design the facilities for the owners. Golf courses also suffered from the lack of demand compared with supply. A main reason privately owned arenas are rare is that, unlike publicly owned rinks, the privates have to pay property taxes (another good reason why publicly owned golf courses are more likely to succeed all other factors equal).

Goalie-Dad
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Post by Goalie-Dad » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:42 am

Ready2GoYet wrote:I would agree that the number of rinks is currently outpacing the demand creating financial hardships for either older rinks (usually have higher operating costs) or for those rinks paying off mortgages. Too many groups do not do an appropriate market analysis prior to building new or adding a second or third sheet of ice, or if one is done, it is often done by the same firms that then design the facilities for the owners. Golf courses also suffered from the lack of demand compared with supply. A main reason privately owned arenas are rare is that, unlike publicly owned rinks, the privates have to pay property taxes (another good reason why publicly owned golf courses are more likely to succeed all other factors equal).
In addition to this comment, the operating and maintenance costs for arena are huge. If a compressor system fails (and they always do), the cost for replacement could be $150k to $300k. Meanwhile the arena is empty, no revenue, no income.

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