1980-81 Section 1 reallingnment question

[paulsonj72]

This is a question for all the old timers out there who may remember this. Why after the 1980 season did the MSHSL realign Section 1,4(I think) and 5. For the youngsters out there Section 1 was 26 teams in the 1980 season and after that season the 3 Bloomington schools(there was a 3rd Bloomington High School, Lincoln, and it closed after the 1981-82 school year) were placed in Section 5 and Lakeville, Farmington and Prior Lake were placed in another new section dropping Section 1 to 19 teams(a 20th team was added as Mankato(both schools) added hockey for the 1980-81 school year). This is something that I have always wondered. For the record Jefferson represented Section 1 in 1980 finishing 3rd and then represented Section 5 in 1981 en route to the schools 1st hockey title in 1981.

[O-townClown]

Is it possible this was done in recognition of the growth of HS hockey S of the river? Were programs added during the 1970s at any of the following schools:

Faribault, Owatonna, Albert Lea, Austin, Winona.

[paulsonj72]

Is it possible this was done in recognition of the growth of HS hockey S of the river? Were programs added during the 1970s at any of the following schools:

Faribault, Owatonna, Albert Lea, Austin, Winona.

From 1975 and on Albert Lea, Austin, and Owatonna had programs. Fairbaut was added in 1976 while Winona did not add the sport until 1985. Apple Valley opened in 1976 so 1977 was their 1st season. New Prauge added around 1980. New Ulm, St Peter,Montgomery-Lonsdale And Northfiled were among others adding hockey in the 1975-1980 time frame.

[xy]

I don't know this first-hand - I was 12 at the time and not invited to the meetings - but I would guess the facts that the Bloomington programs were rather strong, and that Section 5 consisted primarily of Minneapolis schools that were beginning their decline in terms of competitiveness, had something to do with this. Not only was Bloomington a better geographic fit in a metro section, but this also made it a bit easier to get more of the best teams to the state tournament (Section 1 in the late 70s had to be quite a bloodbath, as all three Bloomington teams were usually good back then, John Marshall was reaching state finals, and Burnsville was beginning to field good teams).

[hockeydad]

Pretty sure O-Town and Paulsen have the right idea. There were a number of new programs in the late 70s and early 80s in southern Minnesota that started hockey. They would all have been added to what was then called Region 1, which would have made for a very large tournament. Le Sueur was not mentioned. They had their own HS hockey team I think as early as '76 or '77 until pairing with St. Peter in 1988-89. The Bloomington schools were the first to move out of Section 1, but as the sport grew down south, other south metro teams were moved out of the section also until the two-class system came about.

[paulsonj72]

Pretty sure O-Town and Paulsen have the right idea. There were a number of new programs in the late 70s and early 80s in southern Minnesota that started hockey. They would all have been added to what was then called Region 1, which would have made for a very large tournament. Le Sueur was not mentioned. They had their own HS hockey team I think as early as '76 or '77 until pairing with St. Peter in 1988-89. The Bloomington schools were the first to move out of Section 1, but as the sport grew down south, other south metro teams were moved out of the section also until the two-class system came about.

Le Seuer had thier own team in 1975 and in the round of 16 agianst Bloomington Lincoln was absolutley killed losing 26-0 in a 45 minute hockey game and in those days the roster limit was 17 so Lincoln could not play their 4th line as their was none. That is the biggest blowout I've seen on a goals per minute basis which was bigger than when Moorhead won 27-0 in a 51 minute game.

[xy]

It might also have had something to do with a reduction in teams in the metro area as the baby boom generation worked its way through the schools. Golden Valley merged with the Hopkins district in 1980, eliminating one team; also, it was probably pretty obvious that some Minneapolis schools would be closing soon (three did in 1982, I believe), and that some of the other teams would be going away. Within a few years Edina was down from two to one, Robbinsdale went down from three to two, Hopkins went from two to one, and Bloomington went from three to two. There was going to have to be some team shifting after so many metro programs disappeared.

[goldy313]

There was a move to equal out the sections somewhat, section 1 had 25, maybe 27 teams at the peak, most purely metro sections had 15 or 16.

I was always under the impression the Bloomington schools wanted out, section was very tough then and with schools like Burnsville on the rise it was only going to get tougher. People laugh at section 1 now but in the early to mid 80's, (maybe 1985) after Jefferson and Kennedy left, John Marshall, Owatonna, Albert Lea, Burnsville, and Apple Valley all had top 10 teams in the one class era

[Puckguy19]

It might also have had something to do with a reduction in teams in the metro area as the baby boom generation worked its way through the schools. Golden Valley merged with the Hopkins district in 1980, eliminating one team; also, it was probably pretty obvious that some Minneapolis schools would be closing soon (three did in 1982, I believe), and that some of the other teams would be going away. Within a few years Edina was down from two to one, Robbinsdale went down from three to two, Hopkins went from two to one, and Bloomington went from three to two. There was going to have to be some team shifting after so many metro programs disappeared.

Early 2000's Centennial beat Monticello 27-0 in a 45 minute game, with running time. Was running time the norm in the early 80's.

[goldy313]

Not that I can remember but....

There were only 15 minute periods then
Blue line icing meant less stoppages
Two line passes cut down on the cherry picking
No year around indoor ice meant teams were more or less practicing the same.
I think there was more respect for the game and sportsmanship then and less about scoring and me.
No open enrollment and the transfer policy was tough to get around
More multi sport athletes

[O-townClown]

There was a move to equal out the sections somewhat, section 1 had 25, maybe 27 teams at the peak, most purely metro sections had 15 or 16.

I was always under the impression the Bloomington schools wanted out, section was very tough then and with schools like Burnsville on the rise it was only going to get tougher. People laugh at section 1 now but in the early to mid 80's, (maybe 1985) after Jefferson and Kennedy left, John Marshall, Owatonna, Albert Lea, Burnsville, and Apple Valley all had top 10 teams in the one class era

Owatonna & Albert Lea did not have Top 10 teams. I'm calling BS on that.

[nickel slots]

Owatonna & Albert Lea did not have Top 10 teams. I'm calling BS on that.

I don't recall seeing the rankings back then (does anybody know where to find them??), but I think the Pete McEnaney led Owatonna Indians were the top seed in section 1 in 1983. They were upset by Red Wing who was then beaten by Burnsville... which started their run of 5 straight state tourney appearances. Albert Lea had some fantastic teams in the 80s, too. They had those beautiful baby blue Cooperalls. Lest we forget the Mayo teams with superstar Jim Johansson. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if any of those 3 times were ranked in the top 10 at some point or another. None of the 3 were perennially considered top 10 teams, though.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I believe that there was some realignment in 1975 due to the addition of the private schools, around 15 teams or the equivalent of a region. For some time single class sports had regions, two class sports had sections. Further, until that time region 3 was the northern back door region. So I suppose that with the addition of the privates and some recognition that the northern schools didn't merit a second bite of the apple, region 3 became a real region, much like Pinocchio became real. Other sports had their regions re-done around 1980-1981, but I guess that with the relatively recent re-jiggering of hockey, it was skipped for the most part except for some minor adjustments.

The 1975 realignment was also when the geographically worst region was created, region 2. Duluth schools, St. Cloud, and northern suburbs (Kellogg, Alex. Ramsey, Mounds View, Irondale, Anoka). After Mounds View and then Irondale each had three year runs, it was won alternately by Duluth or a metro school; always depending on where the championship was held, DECC or the Coliseum. The metro schools had one half of the bracket, St. Cloud had one quarter, Duluth had the other quarter. Those schools hated it, but it was just a part of the geography of hockey. The North didn't have enough teams for 3 sections, too many for two regions.
The MSHSL has always said that they seek geographic balance and not competitive balance, so I doubt competition was a motive for the League. Obviously it has motivated various schools to move to less competitive sections. Apollo snuck in one year too. I'd hate to incur the righteous wrath of all those Rocket Hockey fans on the forum.

I also doubt declining school age populations was a motivating factor. Most school closings didn't really hit for a couple more years.

What I've never found out is when did region 1 stop being a back door region for the metro area?

Did Winona stop having hockey for a time? I thought they had an appearance at the state tournament in the 50's.

[goldy313]

I think the back door stopped when the privates came to the MSHSL in 1975. I believe until 1981 you were in the same district/section in every sport and all sports were 1 class, save basketball and football. That's why you could have a disparity in the number of teams per region. Football didn't have sections until around 1985 (at least in AA) and basketball went to 2 classes in the late 60's. Schools were still in the same region until 1981, just there were two classes to split them into except in hockey which remained one class and football which still didn't have regions.

Winona High dropped high school hockey at some point in the 50's, they were never a part of the Southern Minnesota Hockey League that I can recall which was the precursor to the Big Nine. Winona Cotter played hockey though for some time once the MSHSL admitted private schools, whether Winona High was in "co-op" in the private school league is a mystery to me though.

Otown - In the 80's Owatonna was a power in many sports, they won a track title in 81 and were runners up in football in 82, they were a top 10 hockey program for a few years then under Dudley Otto. I think Albert Lea was also but just for a year. That was time when schools who were successful at one sport were often top teams in other sports as well because kids played 3 sports.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I'm skeptical of region assignment being the same for all sports. Not because of any first hand knowledge, just because of the disparity in the overall number of hockey teams versus the number of basketball or baseball teams.
While a lot of hockey schools were located in the north, it was and still is true that most northern schools didn't have hockey teams. Vast parts of the state didn't have any teams. I just think it would be hard to make that work.

[paulsonj72]

I think the back door stopped when the privates came to the MSHSL in 1975. I believe until 1981 you were in the same district/section in every sport and all sports were 1 class, save basketball and football. That's why you could have a disparity in the number of teams per region. Football didn't have sections until around 1985 (at least in AA) and basketball went to 2 classes in the late 60's. Schools were still in the same region until 1981, just there were two classes to split them into except in hockey which remained one class and football which still didn't have regions.

Winona High dropped high school hockey at some point in the 50's, they were never a part of the Southern Minnesota Hockey League that I can recall which was the precursor to the Big Nine. Winona Cotter played hockey though for some time once the MSHSL admitted private schools, whether Winona High was in "co-op" in the private school league is a mystery to me though.

Otown - In the 80's Owatonna was a power in many sports, they won a track title in 81 and were runners up in football in 82, they were a top 10 hockey program for a few years then under Dudley Otto. I think Albert Lea was also but just for a year. That was time when schools who were successful at one sport were often top teams in other sports as well because kids played 3 sports.

Actually all boys sports save Swimming, Hockey, and Tennis(for a small period of time) were two classes as the MSHSL broke into class competition in 1975-76 when the private schools were admitted due to a new state law passed. And yes you were in the same Region(AA schools) or District/Region(Class A schools) for all sports except the 1 class sports and football. Football classification was wierd untill 1984. Prior to that time (football) all the enrollments of schools in that league were added together and an average was determined. The average enrollment of all the schools in a conference determined the confrence class(and all schools in a league were in the same class) 9 man had no limmit and any school could(theoretically) drop to 9 man.1984 (for football) is when the current section format started and schools were placed in a class based on the schools enrollment only. Also in football for a few years prior to the 1984 change the only way to qualify for the football playoffs was to win your league and win a play in game against another league champ. That game was like a section/region title game. All other sports went away from the District/Region format(Class A) or Region (AA) for all sports in 1992. The MSHSL also did a major resectioning again that year and that was for all sports(save football Ibelieve) to gety an equal number of schools in each section/sub section for all sports.
Also Section 3 stopped being a back door for Sections 7 and 8 on 1975 as mentioned. Section One stopped being a back door for 2,4,5, and 6 in 1968. This hockey info from the Lets Play Hockey Satate Tournament book.
Sorry for the long post but it was intended to provide some information to expound on what was provided earlier.

[Vinko Bogataj]

Otown - In the 80's Owatonna was a power in many sports, they won a track title in 81 and were runners up in football in 82, they were a top 10 hockey program for a few years then under Dudley Otto. I think Albert Lea was also but just for a year. That was time when schools who were successful at one sport were often top teams in other sports as well because kids played 3 sports.

Vice versa actually. AL had a decent run from about 1984-1988. They had a somewhat down year in 1986, but made section semi appearances at the old Met in both 1987 and 1988. Team split with state bound and top 5 club Rochester JM in the 1988 RS and lost to Valley (and Karl Goehring's big bro Lee in 1988) and Burnsville in 1987 IIRC. The 1987 and 1988 teams were Top 10 ranked teams each for short periods. Owatonna also had some strong squads, but they were more hit and miss and occurred earlier in the 1980's and they were overall a step below AL. I recall that Otto's son was a decent goalie for one of their better teams. In the late 80's Section 1 had some pretty good squads that just couldn't get past great Burnsville teams, maybe not elite, but definitely competitive and periodic Top 10's. Darn I'm getting old if I remember that stuff...

[goldy313]

Great info guys

I talked to a oldtime wrestling coach and retired teacher last night...He said Minneapolis had a region, St. Paul had a region, the inner ring suburbs had a region and the rest went out like spokes on a bike. Once you were placed in a region you were there for good, the powers that be determined Burnsville, Inver Grove Heights, Apple Valley, and Bloomington to be "outstate" so they went to the SE Minnesota region. Geography was the only factor in region placement so there was no balance in the number of schools, SE/SC Minnesota had more schools with less distance between them so they had an inordinate number of schools in their region in nearly every sport. There were more wrestling teams in region 1 district 3 than there were in some entire regions.

He also said you had to remember the era, the war in Vietnam, in 1967 Israel was at war, the gas embargo came after that, followed by a recession, girls sports also started at that time. People complain now but that was a huge drain on school budgets.

[paulsonj72]

Otown - In the 80's Owatonna was a power in many sports, they won a track title in 81 and were runners up in football in 82, they were a top 10 hockey program for a few years then under Dudley Otto. I think Albert Lea was also but just for a year. That was time when schools who were successful at one sport were often top teams in other sports as well because kids played 3 sports.

Vice versa actually. AL had a decent run from about 1984-1988. They had a somewhat down year in 1986, but made section semi appearances at the old Met in both 1987 and 1988. Team split with state bound and top 5 club Rochester JM in the 1988 RS and lost to Valley (and Karl Goehring's big bro Lee in 1988) and Burnsville in 1987 IIRC. The 1987 and 1988 teams were Top 10 ranked teams each for short periods. Owatonna also had some strong squads, but they were more hit and miss and occurred earlier in the 1980's and they were overall a step below AL. I recall that Otto's son was a decent goalie for one of their better teams. In the late 80's Section 1 had some pretty good squads that just couldn't get past great Burnsville teams, maybe not elite, but definitely competitive and periodic Top 10's. Darn I'm getting old if I remember that stuff...

In 1986 Albert Lea was the #4 seed in Section 1 and lost in the QF's(top 4 were seeded directly into QF's other 17 teams had to win 2(or 3 if 20 or 21 ) games to mkae the QF's. In 1987 they were the 5 seed at 15-4-1 and won the two games to get to the QF'S easily(16-0 and 9-0) before hammering Mayo in the semi's. In 1988 they were the 3 seed and lost to Apple Valley in the semi's/ They had some good teams but as stated the Rochester schools and Burnsville schools dominated the Section. From 1981(once the Bloomingon schools left) Apple Valley in 1981 was the only non Rochester/Burnsville School to win Section 1. Section 5 was worse. Once the Bloomington school joined in 1981 it was a Bloomington school every year from 1981-1991.

[paulsonj72]

Great info guys

I talked to a oldtime wrestling coach and retired teacher last night...He said Minneapolis had a region, St. Paul had a region, the inner ring suburbs had a region and the rest went out like spokes on a bike. Once you were placed in a region you were there for good, the powers that be determined Burnsville, Inver Grove Heights, Apple Valley, and Bloomington to be "outstate" so they went to the SE Minnesota region. Geography was the only factor in region placement so there was no balance in the number of schools, SE/SC Minnesota had more schools with less distance between them so they had an inordinate number of schools in their region in nearly every sport. There were more wrestling teams in region 1 district 3 than there were in some entire regions.

He also said you had to remember the era, the war in Vietnam, in 1967 Israel was at war, the gas embargo came after that, followed by a recession, girls sports also started at that time. People complain now but that was a huge drain on school budgets.

In Basketball(hearsey here I Know but bear with me) The Minneapolis schools, Lake Conference, St Cloud Schools and Willmar were all in Region 5. The St Paul Schools were in Region 4. But yes once in a district/region you stayed there unless moved to balance things out. It happened rarely. Red Wing was in Region 4 District 14 and got moved into Region 1 district 3(I think 3) but it was Region 1. Thats the only Region move I can think of. IN 1976 after the class system started the MSHSL did a major reshuffiling of schools and regions and in AA stopped calling Basketball regions by letters and went to numbers. That though is the year the MSHSL went to class competion for practically all sports. Hockey,Soccer(started as an MSHSL sport in 1974, classes in 1997) Tennis(went to classes in 1979 back to 1 class in 1983 and back to classes in 1987), Swimming and Diving(class system in 1998 and both forms of Ski racing(still 1 class today). Football and Basketball were already in classes by this time and girls sports were just getting started at the state tournament level. All information regarding the start of classes in sports comes from the MSHSL Yearbook and Record Book.

[paulsonj72]

I'm skeptical of region assignment being the same for all sports. Not because of any first hand knowledge, just because of the disparity in the overall number of hockey teams versus the number of basketball or baseball teams.
While a lot of hockey schools were located in the north, it was and still is true that most northern schools didn't have hockey teams. Vast parts of the state didn't have any teams. I just think it would be hard to make that work.

For a long time (at least in Southern MN) New Ulm was as far west as you went for High School hockey. In todays Section 3 A the only schools that had established programs at the time classes came into being were New Ulm, Hutchinson and New Ulm. The 6 other programs in 3A came into exsistence since the 1993-94 school year and frankly they were later than that. So 3A is really behind the curve here as they do not have the tradition and such as most other(but not all) programs in the state.

[goldy313]

Sections in 1979:
*indicates program no longer in existance or host

1 25 teams
Albert Lea
Apple Valley
Austin
Bishop Whipple*
Jefferson
Kennedy
Lincoln*
Burnsville
Farmington
Faribault
LaCrescent
LeSeuer
Montgomery*
New Ulm
Northfield
Owatonna
Prior Lake
Red Wing
John Marshall
Lourdes
Mayo
Rosemount
St. Peter*
Cotter*

2 19 teams
Anoka
Alaxander Ramsey*
Blaine
Cloquet
Columbia Heights*
Coon Rapids
Cathedral
Central
Denfeld*
East
Morgan Park*
Elk River
Irondale
Kellogg*
Moundsview
Apollo
Cathedral
Technical
St. Michael-Albertville

3 19 teams
Brooklyn Center*
Centennial
Chisago Lakes
Forest Lake
Fridley
Totino Grace
Hill-Murray
Mahtomedi
Mariner*
North St. Paul
Osseo
Park
Park Center*
St Anthony*
Spring Lake Park
Stillwater
Tartan
White Bear Lake
Woodbury

4 17 teams
Archbishop Brady*
Cretin
Hastings
Henry Sibley
St. Paul Academy
Central*
Harding*
Highland Park
Humbolt*
Johnson
Murray*
St. Agnes*
St. Bernards*
Washington*
St Thomas Academy
Simley
South St. Paul

5 17 teams
Benilde - St. Margarets
Blake
Breck
Golden Valley*
Holy Angels
Litchfield
Central*
Edison*
Henry*
Marshall-University*
North*
Roosevelt*
South*
Southwest
Washburn*
West*
Minnehaha Academy
Willmar



6 17 teams
Armstrong
Buffalo
Chaska
Cooper
Eden Prairie
Edina East
Edina West*
Eisenhower*
Lindbergh
Hutchinson
Minnetonka
Orono
Richfield
Robbinsdale*
St. Louis Park
Shakopee
Wayzata
Westonka


7 17 teams
Aurora-Hoyt Lakes*
Babbitt*
Chisolm*
Greenway-Coleraine
Ely
Eveleth
Gilbert*
Grand Rapids
Hermantown
Hibbing
International Falls
Moose Lake
Mountain Iron*
Proctor
Silver Bay
Two Harbors
Virginia

8 16 teams
Alexandria
Baudette
Bemidji
Brainerd
Crookston
Mt. St. Benedict*
Detroit Lakes
East Grand Forks
Fergus Falls
Hallock*
Indus*
Moorhead
Red Lake Falls
Roseau
Theif River Falls
Warroad

Looking at the sections for that year running time was a rareity:

John Marshall beat Farmington 3-2, Lincoln 5-4, and Jefferson 4-3
Irondale beat Blaine 9-3, Anoka 5-4, Moundsview 3-1, and Duluth East 9-2
Hill-Murray beat St Anthony 11-3, Osseo5-0, Fridley 5-3, and NSP 2-1
Harding beat Highland Park 3-2, SPA 3-1 Simley 4-3 and SSP 1-0
Washburn beat BSM 5-3, Henry 7-1, Southwest 4-1
Edina East beat Robbinsdale 4-1, Lindbergh 2-1, and Cooper 5-1
Grand Rapids beat Hibbing 8-2, Hermantown 10-2, and Int Falls 4-0
Roseau beat Crookson 2-0, Detroit Lakes 3-0, and Theif River Falls 4-2

[paulsonj72]

Sections in 1979:

Looking at the sections for that year running time was a rareity:

John Marshall beat Farmington 3-2, Lincoln 5-4, and Jefferson 4-3
Irondale beat Blaine 9-3, Anoka 5-4, Moundsview 3-1, and Duluth East 9-2
Hill-Murray beat St Anthony 11-3, Osseo5-0, Fridley 5-3, and NSP 2-1
Harding beat Highland Park 3-2, SPA 3-1 Simley 4-3 and SSP 1-0
Washburn beat BSM 5-3, Henry 7-1, Southwest 4-1
Edina East beat Robbinsdale 4-1, Lindbergh 2-1, and Cooper 5-1
Grand Rapids beat Hibbing 8-2, Hermantown 10-2, and Int Falls 4-0
Roseau beat Crookson 2-0, Detroit Lakes 3-0, and Theif River Falls 4-2

However prior to the quarters in each Section there were some big blowouts. There were games of 15-0. 12-0, two games of 10-2 and a 16-2 in the 1st round of Section 1. JM was seeded directly to the qf's as were Licoln, Mayo an Jefferson. Some sections(not all) seeded the top 4 directly to thr qf's. Also I don't think(not sure I was a little kid in 1979) there was running time. The 1st mercy rule I remember for hockey was the 10 goal rule in 1979-80 which was like the 10 run rule in baseball. In hockey it was if a team had a 10 goal lead)or more) after 2 periods or obtained a 10 goal lead in the 3rd period the game was terminated.

Also who was Bishop Whippple. I don't see them in any Section results making 24 teams in 1979 with New Prauge making 25 in 1980

[goldy313]

Bishop Whipple was in Faribault, maybe it was Shattuck. Shattuck was in the MSHSL a few years later. Truthfully I don't remember Bishop Whipple or Winona Cotter playing hockey but they are in the State Hockey Tournament program from that year. Bethlehem Academy is Catholic so it wouldn't be them as anything I find shows Whipple to be Episcopalian which is what Shattuck is I believe.

[paulsonj72]

Bishop Whipple was in Faribault, maybe it was Shattuck. Shattuck was in the MSHSL a few years later. Truthfully I don't remember Bishop Whipple or Winona Cotter playing hockey but they are in the State Hockey Tournament program from that year. Bethlehem Academy is Catholic so it wouldn't be them as anything I find shows Whipple to be Episcopalian which is what Shattuck is I believe.

Cotter played according to results I have from a website thats not up right now. Shattuck is also listed but there is no Bishop Whipple.