Future of High School Hockey Great Article

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bemused
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Future of High School Hockey Great Article

Post by bemused » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:59 am

Agree or dis-agree this article makes some great points!

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog.com ... ool-hockey

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:43 pm

Thanks for sharing. It is a very well written article. What's interesting is that hockey becomes more and more a moneyed sport with each passing day no matter where you live.
Be kind. Rewind.

Mailman
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Post by Mailman » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:55 pm

In my experience, the *vast* majority of "elite" kids could care less where they play.

It's the parents, with the "my kid is the next Gretzky" mindset that are the driving force behind kids leaving team x.

Which is fine, but spare me the "give the *kids* a choice" bs.

Elephant in the room.

rockcrusher
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Post by rockcrusher » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:27 pm

Those 2 players leaving silver bay had nothing to do with these 2 high school teams combining. Their youth teams ( peewee and bantams ) have been combined for a few years. And the girls HS has been co-opped for many more. The writing was on the wall for these two towns, either combine of fizzle out. Like Chisholm, aurora, hoyt lakes, mt. Iron, Babbitt, Gilbert, Ely. If they transferred to duluth east would there even be a story?

analogkid
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Post by analogkid » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:47 pm

These two families' decision to move had no bearing on the merger between Silver Bay and Two Harbors. Something to keep in mind is that the goalie (Murray) lived and attended school in Grand Marais and traveled 110 miles each day to practice. That drive would now be 170 miles on Hwy 61 for practices and home games in Two Harbors. That's like driving from Wayzata to Willmar and back. His family's move to Duluth allows him to get a better education and walk to the rink.

mulefarm
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Post by mulefarm » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:58 pm

To be honest the quality of Mn HS hockey has been on the decline the last 10-12 years. HS hockey used to be the leader and model, along with superior player development. In fact, players used to come to Mn to further their devlopment and gain exposure. The MSHSL must consider all sports, and this has caused hockey to become very restrictive in the amout of weeks for and the number of games in a season. With the 2 class system, and how teams are placed in each class, has diminshed the luster of the state tournament. There are so many more avenues for players to get a scholarship or an NHL career now, Mn Hs has gone from the front of the pack for elite players to one of the last options. The MSHSL
probably won't change for one sport and eventually their revenue from the state tournament will decline and it will be to late to make sufficent changes. There will always be HS hockey, but there will be very few elite players. Just look at the number of players that have been drafted the last few years. Somebody will start a AAA team or two in the state that will have a 50-60 game season, good coaching and competive schedule and things will really change. Hate to see it happen, but I think it's just a matter of time.

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Post by karl(east) » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:54 am

rockcrusher wrote:Those 2 players leaving silver bay had nothing to do with these 2 high school teams combining. Their youth teams ( peewee and bantams ) have been combined for a few years. And the girls HS has been co-opped for many more. The writing was on the wall for these two towns, either combine of fizzle out. Like Chisholm, aurora, hoyt lakes, mt. Iron, Babbitt, Gilbert, Ely. If they transferred to duluth east would there even be a story?
It's also not something remotely new. Hockey players have been transferring from the Range and the North Shore into Duluth schools, or even places like Grand Rapids, for decades. Just as they have been transferring in and around the Metro for decades. Just as there have been players leaving for juniors for decades. And just as some players (albeit to a lesser degree) have been going to private schools for decades. The numbers on the first two counts are pretty consistent, and have ticked up on the last front less than some might think.

What has changed? Two things, I'd say:
1. AAA summer hockey. It's been wildly beneficial for player development, though it has also produced an arms race, as there is no upper limit on "development." I'm not saying winter AAA wouldn't help, or even that it wouldn't be better, but anyone who knows how markets work knows they are not a silver bullet, nor do they "level the playing field for everyone."
2. The two-class tournament, which is, in my opinion, by far the biggest reason why so many private schools have become hockey destinations.

There's a lot more to say about both of these things, but not on a day when I am stuffing myself full of turkey. :)

Shinbone_News
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Re: Future of High School Hockey Great Article

Post by Shinbone_News » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:56 pm

bemused wrote:Agree or dis-agree this article makes some great points!

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog.com ... ool-hockey
Agreed, a very interesting and well written article that avoids the usual polarizing angle that commentators here have already started to lay out.

Thing is, kids aren't stupid. They have been trained since their first try-out to know that the best players are on the A team. Beyond that, the best A players are on the winningest teams from the best associations in the toughest districts. This is all obvious to a Squirt-aged kid. If he's super obsessed, he watches college hockey and knows the difference between the Gophers and the Tommies.

So that skilled and committed 12 year old makes the Blades or the Machine in the summer, and then he goes back to his single-A association out in the far western suburbs and, even though he's a stud on his team, he doesn't see it get ranked in Lets Play Hockey. He watches the state tournament on TV each spring, and he doesn't see his high school get past regional quarter finals. Mind you, this is not David Backes or Eric Johnson. This is a very good player with no buzz and no political clout. Not a once-in-a-generation player, but among the best of his peers.

Does he stick around and play four years of HS with Willmar, or does he commute to BSM to play with two teammates from his summer AAA program? Where he stands a pretty good chance of getting a shot at the Elite League, the USHL or NAHL, and NCAA college hockey????

I know what the romantic answer is, and I know what the real answer is.

The Enlightened One
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Re: Future of High School Hockey Great Article

Post by The Enlightened One » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:55 pm

Shinbone_News wrote:
bemused wrote:Agree or dis-agree this article makes some great points!

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog.com ... ool-hockey
Agreed, a very interesting and well written article that avoids the usual polarizing angle that commentators here have already started to lay out.

Thing is, kids aren't stupid. They have been trained since their first try-out to know that the best players are on the A team. Beyond that, the best A players are on the winningest teams from the best associations in the toughest districts. This is all obvious to a Squirt-aged kid. If he's super obsessed, he watches college hockey and knows the difference between the Gophers and the Tommies.

So that skilled and committed 12 year old makes the Blades or the Machine in the summer, and then he goes back to his single-A association out in the far western suburbs and, even though he's a stud on his team, he doesn't see it get ranked in Lets Play Hockey. He watches the state tournament on TV each spring, and he doesn't see his high school get past regional quarter finals. Mind you, this is not David Backes or Eric Johnson. This is a very good player with no buzz and no political clout. Not a once-in-a-generation player, but among the best of his peers.

Does he stick around and play four years of HS with Willmar, or does he commute to BSM to play with two teammates from his summer AAA program? Where he stands a pretty good chance of getting a shot at the Elite League, the USHL or NAHL, and NCAA college hockey????

I know what the romantic answer is, and I know what the real answer is.
Very well put. Hits the nails on the head and frames the argument from exactly the right angle. The answer to your question is going to be the answer to the road that High School Hockey takes. Personally I wish they would take the real answer but am afraid that they are going to be pushed into trying the romantic one.

goldy313
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Post by goldy313 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:37 pm

mulefarm wrote:To be honest the quality of Mn HS hockey has been on the decline the last 10-12 years. HS hockey used to be the leader and model, along with superior player development. In fact, players used to come to Mn to further their devlopment and gain exposure. The MSHSL must consider all sports, and this has caused hockey to become very restrictive in the amout of weeks for and the number of games in a season. With the 2 class system, and how teams are placed in each class, has diminshed the luster of the state tournament. There are so many more avenues for players to get a scholarship or an NHL career now, Mn Hs has gone from the front of the pack for elite players to one of the last options. The MSHSL
probably won't change for one sport and eventually their revenue from the state tournament will decline and it will be to late to make sufficent changes. There will always be HS hockey, but there will be very few elite players. Just look at the number of players that have been drafted the last few years. Somebody will start a AAA team or two in the state that will have a 50-60 game season, good coaching and competive schedule and things will really change. Hate to see it happen, but I think it's just a matter of time.
High school hockey only gets the players youth sytems put out and the decline starts far below high school. The rank and file players are on the decline skill wise and nothing the MSHSL can do will change that. Hockey is, in nearly every community, a sport that now has a very limited talent pool due to costs and specialization. Hockey is losing the top athletes to basketball and wrestling in pretty stagering numbers because most families can't afford to play hockey anymore. Even in places like Rochester which has nearly doubled in size in the past 30 years and has a very high household income the number of boys playing hockey is dropping, not only year after year but from levels they had 30 years ago.

Going to a AAA model will help a very very few number of kids and would they stay and play AAA versus juniors or NDT anyhow? I doubt it. Where would those kids then come from? My guess would be the St Thomas or Breck type teams where money isn't really an issue because the costs would be similar. Would that hurt high school hockey? Probably not.

One last point is kids leave for a variety of reasons, not all are because they are better than the high school system, some are but others leave because they are sold a dream by those who profit off of those dreams. Kids who stay can succeed and many do, there are those who tell you you can't succeed if you stay and by and large they're thinking of how they benefit, not the kid. If you look at my area many of the kids who left are no better off hockeywise at least than they would be if they had stayed in high school, which is boarderline NAHL players.

Mailman
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Post by Mailman » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:10 am

goldy313 wrote:
mulefarm wrote:To be honest the quality of Mn HS hockey has been on the decline the last 10-12 years. HS hockey used to be the leader and model, along with superior player development. In fact, players used to come to Mn to further their devlopment and gain exposure. The MSHSL must consider all sports, and this has caused hockey to become very restrictive in the amout of weeks for and the number of games in a season. With the 2 class system, and how teams are placed in each class, has diminshed the luster of the state tournament. There are so many more avenues for players to get a scholarship or an NHL career now, Mn Hs has gone from the front of the pack for elite players to one of the last options. The MSHSL
probably won't change for one sport and eventually their revenue from the state tournament will decline and it will be to late to make sufficent changes. There will always be HS hockey, but there will be very few elite players. Just look at the number of players that have been drafted the last few years. Somebody will start a AAA team or two in the state that will have a 50-60 game season, good coaching and competive schedule and things will really change. Hate to see it happen, but I think it's just a matter of time.
High school hockey only gets the players youth sytems put out and the decline starts far below high school. The rank and file players are on the decline skill wise and nothing the MSHSL can do will change that. Hockey is, in nearly every community, a sport that now has a very limited talent pool due to costs and specialization. Hockey is losing the top athletes to basketball and wrestling in pretty stagering numbers because most families can't afford to play hockey anymore. Even in places like Rochester which has nearly doubled in size in the past 30 years and has a very high household income the number of boys playing hockey is dropping, not only year after year but from levels they had 30 years ago.

Going to a AAA model will help a very very few number of kids and would they stay and play AAA versus juniors or NDT anyhow? I doubt it. Where would those kids then come from? My guess would be the St Thomas or Breck type teams where money isn't really an issue because the costs would be similar. Would that hurt high school hockey? Probably not.

One last point is kids leave for a variety of reasons, not all are because they are better than the high school system, some are but others leave because they are sold a dream by those who profit off of those dreams. Kids who stay can succeed and many do, there are those who tell you you can't succeed if you stay and by and large they're thinking of how they benefit, not the kid. If you look at my area many of the kids who left are no better off hockeywise at least than they would be if they had stayed in high school, which is boarderline NAHL players.
Bingo. There are plenty of stories of "To bad about player x. He obviously left team y to early, and faded away."

I have yet to hear a story of "If only player x hadn't stayed with team y that extra year. He would have been great."

Pretty obvious the board represents a metrocentric membership.

In the "hinterlands", loyalty to a town/coach isn't considered "romantic". It's considered the right thing to do, and if you need explanation of the reasons why, you wouldn't understand anyway.

Where going to state, is still a BIG deal, no matter what insults the cakeeaters (when in Rome....) call the A tournament, and it means more to go there with the friends you grew up with even if you lose all three games, than win with a handpicked all-star team of guys you'll never even see again after the last high school game.

Some still enjoy hockey as a game at the high school level, instead of the big business it has become.

I think hockey outside the metro area is doomed though, for the reasons listed by others, cost, etc.
In the not so distant future, it'll be only in the metro area I predict, along with maybe a regional team here and there.
That will be Minnesota "State" hockey.

And that'll be a very sad day when that happens.

Flame away if desired, I've had my say.

mnhockeyguy11
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Post by mnhockeyguy11 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:59 pm

Mailman wrote:Pretty obvious the board represents a metrocentric membership.

In the "hinterlands", loyalty to a town/coach isn't considered "romantic". It's considered the right thing to do, and if you need explanation of the reasons why, you wouldn't understand anyway.

Where going to state, is still a BIG deal, no matter what insults the cakeeaters (when in Rome....) call the A tournament, and it means more to go there with the friends you grew up with even if you lose all three games, than win with a handpicked all-star team of guys you'll never even see again after the last high school game.

Some still enjoy hockey as a game at the high school level, instead of the big business it has become.

I think hockey outside the metro area is doomed though, for the reasons listed by others, cost, etc.
In the not so distant future, it'll be only in the metro area I predict, along with maybe a regional team here and there.
That will be Minnesota "State" hockey.

And that'll be a very sad day when that happens.

Flame away if desired, I've had my say.
I actually agree with you on this one Mailman. I grew up in southern Minnesota and as much as I love watching the Class A (and AA for that matter), the writing's been on the wall about Class A for awhile now.

No longer is it exclusively small town or co-op home grown boys who grew up playing and going to school together from the time they learned how to skate, the trip to St. Paul being the culmination of every kid's dream come true. The torch has instead been passed to primarily Metro private schools who go out and recruit like sharks on blood. Want proof? There have only been three public A champions since 2000, Warroad (twice) and Hermantown.

To me, Class A is quickly becoming a haven for these private schools who are more than capable of playing in AA, but chose not to. Its also why I respect privates like BSM and Hill-Murray who have realized this and have voluntarily bumped up. What scares me is that MSHSL isn't even acknowledging this as a problem when in reality it can quickly turn from the "State" High School Hockey Tournament to "Metro and Northern MN" High School Hockey Tournament. And that's a shame.

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:26 pm

What seems to be lost on many people is that change in MSHSL activities, more or less, happens when many people in positions of power (coaches, ADs) want change. We now have more classes in football than most states in the country because over the last couple years many, many coaches complained about the system we had.

There are people on here that rant a lot, but when it comes down to it, it would seem the state as a whole isn't asking for what people are saying on here. There are many valid points on both sides of the discussion, and it is a complex issue.

What I continue to be curious about is why hockey (and now football with the stupid class changes) seems to be the only sport that many private schools are doing really well...and why what they are doing cannot be done at public school communities if what they are doing is in fact solely based on hockey...

My personal opinion for something that could "fix" what is wrong here, and raise the quality of post season play in all sports, is put in place a system where teams have to qualify for the post season. There would be need for few classes in all sports, as the top teams in generally all sports can compete with each other.

East Side Pioneer Guy
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Post by East Side Pioneer Guy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:20 pm

It's mostly a side issue to this thread, but the Class A tournament is not now and never has been a significant attraction. It has nothing to do with private schools; attendance never has been great regardless of who is or isn't dominating it.

Just because kids think it's fun to stay in a hotel for a weekend doesn't mean people want to buy tickets to watch them play hockey. And that has no overall effect on the state of the game of hockey in Minnesota.

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