Refs and the speed of the game

[Sartellcelly]

Borrowing from the STA-BSM string:

[/quote] I think in general the speed of top end games is beyond the current stable of refs to keep up. They are getting run over and cannot keep up with play. Something for the mhsl to look which is unlikely.[/quote]

I've seen this quite a bit lately, most recently in the WBL game against Edina. And I'm not talking about an official carrying a few extra pounds. Not sure what can be done, but I'd be interested in hearing some more on this topic.

[Little King]

Couldn't agree more.!!!I too saw this last night in the ER v Blaine game. One of the refs (with stripes) could barely skate, let alone keep up with the speed of the game.

It cost both teams in different instances, both with penalties and or early/late whistles because he was too far behind the play.

Something needs to be done by MSHSL!!!!

[pioneers]

I think that the officials should be trained better to anticipate play. So many times, the do not anticipate where the play is going and they end up just standing there and getting in the way. Three officials should be able to keep up with a high school game. Hopefully the MSHSL will not decide to go with 4 officials all of the time. Just one more to get in the way.

[orm1210]

First off, it is pretty hard to teach play anticipation at this point. In lower level games, its hard to anticipate because there are typically more turnovers. in higher end games, either you can read plays or you cant, and the only way you can is by learning through experience.

Secondly, i agree that calls are missed in games because of positioning. in the lakeville south v. prior lake game in the schwans cup, a ref waved a goal off from the tops of the circles...shouldnt happen.

Third, they will never go to 4 officials in high school regular season, i can say this with certainty.

Lastly, i think the biggest issue fans/coaches/players have with officials this year is lack of consistency on a nightly basis. And let me explain why...this is high school hockey. not college, not the pros. but high school. these are normal guys just like us getting way under paid to officiate the greatest game we know, they are not all going to see the game the same nor are they going to have the same judgement. its just how it is.

Last point...in all my years of playing/watching/refing...i can probably count the number of games ACTUALLY determined by the officials on less than two hands.

[inthestands]

Couldn't agree more.!!!I too saw this last night in the ER v Blaine game. One of the refs (with stripes) could barely skate, let alone keep up with the speed of the game.

It cost both teams in different instances, both with penalties and or early/late whistles because he was too far behind the play.

Something needs to be done by MSHSL!!!!

I'm curious what you propose the MSHSL do?

No argument there is a wide range of ability across the spectrum of officials. Just as there is a wide range of ability in players and coaches. As with anything, the weaker of any group is slowly weeded out. Usually not soon enough...

There is a huge discrepancy in what each individual coach, player and fan feel should be called. It's unlikely a reasonable resolution will be found outside of the officials associations policing their membership.

How much value should be placed on a coaches evaluation of an official that he feels has wronged him and his team in a game?

On the other hand, how much value should be placed on the evaluation of official that has glowing reviews in a 10-0 game from the winning coach? Not an easy situation to find good information.

Who is willing to go out and evaluate officials? Do you volunteer, drive to games out of your area where there's no skin in the game for you? Why are you qualified to evaluate anyone calling a game? That doesn't interest me much..

Yet at every hockey game, there is someone unhappy with the job of the referee. Normally it's an uneducated opinion based on something they wished would have gone their way instead of against them.

[ref101]

Couldn't agree more.!!!I too saw this last night in the ER v Blaine game. One of the refs (with stripes) could barely skate, let alone keep up with the speed of the game.

It cost both teams in different instances, both with penalties and or early/late whistles because he was too far behind the play.

Something needs to be done by MSHSL!!!!

AHhhhh perfect, new blood. I'll let the MSHSL know that we have 2 new ones coming in; aka Sartellcelly and Little King.... Of course, you'll have to fully register your real names when you apply. Can't wait to see you in action, welcome!

[nahc]

ORM: One can attend almost any game this year and see that the officials influence the outcome. From calling not calling the 5 minute major for boarding, hit to the head, etc to calling penalties from center ice when the other official is watching the same play from 5 feet away and calls no penalty, to not being in position to see a puckk cross the goal line.......these all are official driven and occur a LOT........

The officials have a tough job........but if you ref high school hockey, you had better be able to officiate at that level......

[Stripes2011]

Only thing I can add is its all a matter of Opinions. A trip by one observer (Official or not) can be a trip, while to the other person saw it as a toe pick (Self inflicted trip). One person wants every little bit of contact called the others want nothing. The came is as exciting as it is in part because opinions on what to call and what not to call are all so differnt. The game looks different from the stands compared to the ice. Most officails are covering youth to college, so its not like there are an overabundance of officails qualified to do the higher levels.

[observer]

Does the MSHSL employ their own officials?
Or, are they from the same pool of refs that ref District bantam A games? Do they ref college games too or only MSHSL games?
And remember there's generally a ref shortage at most levels.

[inthestands]

The officials have a tough job........but if you ref high school hockey, you had better be able to officiate at that level......

As well as the spectators having fun at those games..

Unfortunately, many can't seem to wade through all the other spectating responsibilities to find the value in watching a good game, and congratulating their players after a hard fought effort.

No matter the outcome, or what the game officials did or didn't do.

After all is said and done, we at times forget the most important part of HS sports.

[goldy313]

Does the MSHSL employ their own officials?
Or, are they from the same pool of refs that ref District bantam A games? Do they ref college games too or only MSHSL games?
And remember there's generally a ref shortage at most levels.

High school officials are independent contractors, the schools either hire them individually or contract through an officials association who then assigns officials.

Youth, high school, and college are all run by different groups so an official could be a member of one, two, or all three groups.

[goldy313]

I could probably write paragraphs on officiating and why it seems the quality has gone down and maybe I will at some point, having spent a lot of years doing both hockey (which I no longer do) and football I probably have a different perspective than most.

There is in all sports an official shortage, some areas of the state are worse than others, but there is a need for more people to officiate everywhere. In hockey boys and girls play on the same nights, boys went to three officials, and officials themselves did a very poor job in getting new officials for maybe three decades, then you had people give up hockey because we didn't like the direction the MSHSL was moving in hockey (I had real problems the way the 3 man system was implemented).

Personally I think the shortage has hurt because we don't have enough time to mentor people properly. I think we should have built up the number of officials prior to going to three with the boys as that changed about the same time girls hockey really took off.

[Sartellcelly]

my hope was that this string I started would focus on refs keeping up and not getting in the way, rather than a general rant about overall quality of officiating.

what are others seeing in this specific area, and what might the solution be to give the players the space that they work so hard to control?

[HShockeywatcher]

my hope was that this string I started would focus on refs keeping up and not getting in the way, rather than a general rant about overall quality of officiating.

what are others seeing in this specific area, and what might the solution be to give the players the space that they work so hard to control?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing is that we need more officials, and preferably ones who have experience playing hockey.
With more officials and the same number of games, there would be more competition for games and likely better training, etc.
In hockey, unlike sports like football and basketball, the refs have to be in places the play can go to. Having played the game and having game sense can only help.

I don't like the adage refs seem to cling to of "if you don't like how we do it, try doing it" when they are critiqued. People should be doing their best but, like in any part time job, mistakes are made and there is learning to be had.

From what I've heard, pay isn't great. Not sure if raising it would help at all, but it's something to consider I'd say. Not sure what else they can do long term.

[ref101]

my hope was that this string I started would focus on refs keeping up and not getting in the way, rather than a general rant about overall quality of officiating.

what are others seeing in this specific area, and what might the solution be to give the players the space that they work so hard to control?

What's the beef about "not keeping up" ??? Please explain..
Keep this in mind, When you start learning the officiating side of the game, you will find out there is a "system" that officials work within on each type of game (2 man, 3 man). In the case of a "3 man system" (2 refs, 1 linesman), the lead/front Referee (orange strips) will always be trailing the puck carrier into the attacking zone. Is this the "not keeping up" preception......???
There are a couple different ways to work this system, like having the lead/front Referee back into the zone ahead of the attacking players (actually the system I prefer). BUT.... That's not what the MSHSL wants..... Everyone in the state is suppose to be working the same "system" ...
Maybe this is what your seeing......?

[Little King]

Couldn't agree more.!!!I too saw this last night in the ER v Blaine game. One of the refs (with stripes) could barely skate, let alone keep up with the speed of the game.

It cost both teams in different instances, both with penalties and or early/late whistles because he was too far behind the play.

Something needs to be done by MSHSL!!!!

AHhhhh perfect, new blood. I'll let the MSHSL know that we have 2 new ones coming in; aka Sartellcelly and Little King.... Of course, you'll have to fully register your real names when you apply. Can't wait to see you in action, welcome!

Wow... Salty, salty, salty...Must be a D6 egomania.... I mean ref.... I was not questioning any calls, but I was questioning the ref's ability to skate, and keep up with the pace of a hs game. This ref was so far behind the play, that it caused him to make poor calls/whistles, based on the fact that he was out of position.

I'd be glad to sign up and ref, but theres a few problems, I have 20/20 vision, and weigh less than 200 lbs.... I kid.. I kid... In all seriousness, I think something as simple as somekind of fitness test wouldn't be too much to ask would it?

[Sartellcelly]

my hope was that this string I started would focus on refs keeping up and not getting in the way, rather than a general rant about overall quality of officiating.

what are others seeing in this specific area, and what might the solution be to give the players the space that they work so hard to control?

What's the beef about "not keeping up" ??? Please explain..
Keep this in mind, When you start learning the officiating side of the game, you will find out there is a "system" that officials work within on each type of game (2 man, 3 man). In the case of a "3 man system" (2 refs, 1 linesman), the lead/front Referee (orange strips) will always be trailing the puck carrier into the attacking zone. Is this the "not keeping up" preception......???
There are a couple different ways to work this system, like having the lead/front Referee back into the zone ahead of the attacking players (actually the system I prefer). BUT.... That's not what the MSHSL wants..... Everyone in the state is suppose to be working the same "system" ...
Maybe this is what your seeing......?

By not keeping up, I mean being out of position to make a call, particularly when it comes to off-side and goal or no goal. Too often, I've seen refs many, many feet away from the blue line but still have to decide an off-side situation. the same is true for whether a puck crossed the goal line. That's what i mean by keeping up.

otherwise, i'm seeing refs way too often getting in the way of players. This most often seems to happen in corners and most often when players on offense have the puck.

anyone else out there see what I'm seeing to some degree?

[urban iceman]

my hope was that this string I started would focus on refs keeping up and not getting in the way, rather than a general rant about overall quality of officiating.

what are others seeing in this specific area, and what might the solution be to give the players the space that they work so hard to control?

What's the beef about "not keeping up" ??? Please explain..
Keep this in mind, When you start learning the officiating side of the game, you will find out there is a "system" that officials work within on each type of game (2 man, 3 man). In the case of a "3 man system" (2 refs, 1 linesman), the lead/front Referee (orange strips) will always be trailing the puck carrier into the attacking zone. Is this the "not keeping up" preception......???
There are a couple different ways to work this system, like having the lead/front Referee back into the zone ahead of the attacking players (actually the system I prefer). BUT.... That's not what the MSHSL wants..... Everyone in the state is suppose to be working the same "system" ...
Maybe this is what your seeing......?

By not keeping up, I mean being out of position to make a call, particularly when it comes to off-side and goal or no goal. Too often, I've seen refs many, many feet away from the blue line but still have to decide an off-side situation. the same is true for whether a puck crossed the goal line. That's what i mean by keeping up.

otherwise, i'm seeing refs way too often getting in the way of players. This most often seems to happen in corners and most often when players on offense have the puck.

anyone else out there see what I'm seeing to some degree?

Totally agree. Even calling penalties by "sound" such as boarding and roughing, because they are so far out of position they call what they hear and not what they saw!! Some of these guy's (especially at the youth level's), make you nervous that they might keel over during the game!

[skiumah]

my hope was that this string I started would focus on refs keeping up and not getting in the way, rather than a general rant about overall quality of officiating.

what are others seeing in this specific area, and what might the solution be to give the players the space that they work so hard to control?

What's the beef about "not keeping up" ??? Please explain..
Keep this in mind, When you start learning the officiating side of the game, you will find out there is a "system" that officials work within on each type of game (2 man, 3 man). In the case of a "3 man system" (2 refs, 1 linesman), the lead/front Referee (orange strips) will always be trailing the puck carrier into the attacking zone. Is this the "not keeping up" preception......???
There are a couple different ways to work this system, like having the lead/front Referee back into the zone ahead of the attacking players (actually the system I prefer). BUT.... That's not what the MSHSL wants..... Everyone in the state is suppose to be working the same "system" ...
Maybe this is what your seeing......?

By not keeping up, I mean being out of position to make a call, particularly when it comes to off-side and goal or no goal. Too often, I've seen refs many, many feet away from the blue line but still have to decide an off-side situation. the same is true for whether a puck crossed the goal line. That's what i mean by keeping up.

otherwise, i'm seeing refs way too often getting in the way of players. This most often seems to happen in corners and most often when players on offense have the puck.

anyone else out there see what I'm seeing to some degree?

Where is the ref supposed to go? Most HS kids keep their head down up while carrying the puck. So, is the ref in the way or the player not aware of their surroundings?

Let's say your the ref in the neutral zone and play is deep in the offensive zone. Now the play transitions the other way and turns into a 3 on 2. Since your the back ref, you need to make the call at the blue line. After that call, you need to hustle to the goal line. Keep in mind you were most likely flat footed at the blue line, while 17 yr olds are skating full steam ahead.

Back to the play....at the red line, the right wing is carrying the puck up the boards, and the left D starts drifting towards the boards. You are standing at the blue line to make the proper on/off sides call. The right wing has a choice: a) cut to the middle, or b) beat the D up the boards. Keep in mind, you're stationary the blue line.

As someone stated earlier in this thread, you need to anticipate the play. 98% of the time the right wing will bury his head and skate up the boards. Let's assume that happens. Now what do you do?
a) hold the line and be in your proper position to make the call
b) step 10 feet away from the boards and let the players pass up the boards
c) drift into the zone and let the players cross the blue line, while you continue backwards to the goal line

[Sartellcelly]

What's the beef about "not keeping up" ??? Please explain..
Keep this in mind, When you start learning the officiating side of the game, you will find out there is a "system" that officials work within on each type of game (2 man, 3 man). In the case of a "3 man system" (2 refs, 1 linesman), the lead/front Referee (orange strips) will always be trailing the puck carrier into the attacking zone. Is this the "not keeping up" preception......???
There are a couple different ways to work this system, like having the lead/front Referee back into the zone ahead of the attacking players (actually the system I prefer). BUT.... That's not what the MSHSL wants..... Everyone in the state is suppose to be working the same "system" ...
Maybe this is what your seeing......?

By not keeping up, I mean being out of position to make a call, particularly when it comes to off-side and goal or no goal. Too often, I've seen refs many, many feet away from the blue line but still have to decide an off-side situation. the same is true for whether a puck crossed the goal line. That's what i mean by keeping up.

otherwise, i'm seeing refs way too often getting in the way of players. This most often seems to happen in corners and most often when players on offense have the puck.

anyone else out there see what I'm seeing to some degree?

Where is the ref supposed to go? Most HS kids keep their head down up while carrying the puck. So, is the ref in the way or the player not aware of their surroundings?

Let's say your the ref in the neutral zone and play is deep in the offensive zone. Now the play transitions the other way and turns into a 3 on 2. Since your the back ref, you need to make the call at the blue line. After that call, you need to hustle to the goal line. Keep in mind you were most likely flat footed at the blue line, while 17 yr olds are skating full steam ahead.

Back to the play....at the red line, the right wing is carrying the puck up the boards, and the left D starts drifting towards the boards. You are standing at the blue line to make the proper on/off sides call. The right wing has a choice: a) cut to the middle, or b) beat the D up the boards. Keep in mind, you're stationary the blue line.

As someone stated earlier in this thread, you need to anticipate the play. 98% of the time the right wing will bury his head and skate up the boards. Let's assume that happens. Now what do you do?
a) hold the line and be in your proper position to make the call
b) step 10 feet away from the boards and let the players pass up the boards
c) drift into the zone and let the players cross the blue line, while you continue backwards to the goal line

excellent explanations for WHY it happens. Now I'd like to know why I'm seeing MORE of it happen.

[inthestands]

lent explanations for WHY it happens. Now I'd like to know why I'm seeing MORE of it happen.

I've been watching my kids play HS hockey since 1995. I don't see it. What do you mean by more?

There's lots of good back and forth in this thread. I'm curious how many in this thread have first hand experience of the detail they are evaluating?

There's been a couple of comments about youth level officiating, and the low quality. Let's look at a couple points. When kids start working USA hockey games, they might get less than 5 games their first season. That's after spending a day at camp, paying for a test, buying some gear.

Now, they are working games for Mite through Bantam age players and a wide variety of coaching ability. I've witnessed some outright embarrassing behavior from youth level coaches toward young new officials.

At the youth level, USA loses over 50% of first year officials for a variety of reasons. Where do you suppose experienced USA officials go after a number of years? Probably up to the HS level. Now older and more experienced, those "Adults" can at least listen too and take the gamesmanship that HS coaches work with.

If anyone wants the level of officials to improve, you need to look at the system prior to MSHSL times.

One more item - I'd like to see every hockey parent have their player officiate for a minimum of one season. Each parent should spectate and listen to the fan base, as well as take notes on coaching behavior toward their child.

If that happened, we would see a different attitude toward the game, players, coaches and officials.

I know, that's a pipe dream.

[observer]

I'd like to see every hockey parent have their player officiate for a minimum of one season.

Excellent idea. Like every Mite or Squirt trying goalie once. I think many hockey players would enjoy reffing if they tried it. We need more and better refs and it's a great job for kids through high school and college. They can make 50 bucks in a couple of hours instead of having to sit somewhere for an 8 hour shift.

Unfortunately, you're also correct about the behavior towards youth refs by coaches and parents.

[Sartellcelly]

lent explanations for WHY it happens. Now I'd like to know why I'm seeing MORE of it happen.

I've been watching my kids play HS hockey since 1995. I don't see it. What do you mean by more?

There's lots of good back and forth in this thread. I'm curious how many in this thread have first hand experience of the detail they are evaluating?

There's been a couple of comments about youth level officiating, and the low quality. Let's look at a couple points. When kids start working USA hockey games, they might get less than 5 games their first season. That's after spending a day at camp, paying for a test, buying some gear.

Now, they are working games for Mite through Bantam age players and a wide variety of coaching ability. I've witnessed some outright embarrassing behavior from youth level coaches toward young new officials.

At the youth level, USA loses over 50% of first year officials for a variety of reasons. Where do you suppose experienced USA officials go after a number of years? Probably up to the HS level. Now older and more experienced, those "Adults" can at least listen too and take the gamesmanship that HS coaches work with.

If anyone wants the level of officials to improve, you need to look at the system prior to MSHSL times.

One more item - I'd like to see every hockey parent have their player officiate for a minimum of one season. Each parent should spectate and listen to the fan base, as well as take notes on coaching behavior toward their child.

If that happened, we would see a different attitude toward the game, players, coaches and officials.

I know, that's a pipe dream.

By more, I mean it happens more often in high school games this season than I have seen in previous seasons.

Again, I am seeing more often in high school games refs not being able to keep up and getting in the way (even of players with their heads up). Are others seeing an increase? It's really a simple question that keeps getting gummed up with overall opining about officiating and views about what's going on at youth levels.

[goldy313]

I'm not so sure your question can be answered to your liking.

In other sports officials have an area to cover and in most cases triangulate to cover the play from all sides. Hockey, for whatever reason, doesn't officiate this way. Think if you had a football or basketball official who only had the responsibility for deciding if the player stepped out of bounds or not, not if there was a penalty or foul, it wouldn't work yet this is how hockey operates. The system is mechanically flawed. I think there is a mentality and even a mechanic where if it's not my call I'm not going to worry about it. That's not good and leads to being in the way.

The officials are part of the game and in play, the players need to learn that, if you keep yourself and the puck more than 5 feet from the boards they'll never hinder you or be in the way, and if you know that the official will be on the line covering offsides yet you skate into him who's fault is that?

[Edgy]

I have seen close to 100 games already this year - Jr's, HS and Bantamm AA - and it seems when you are not pulling for a specific team, the ref's tend to get it right more times than not. In those games did the ref's make some questionable calls - sure they did. That said, they got it right most of the time and in all those games I do not recall the ref changing the outcome of a game with a "bad call". If you think you can ref better, I know they are always looking for more good refs, so........