Lets settle North vs Metro vs private a little bit...

auggie09
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:31 pm

Lets settle North vs Metro vs private a little bit...

Post by auggie09 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:02 am

question- whos better, north, metro, or private teams? i tried to select the top 8 of each, if some are missing or anything, just add it in...<br><br>options- North....Duluth East, Cloquet, Greenway, Moorhead, Grand Rapids, Warroad, IF, Hibbing<br><br><br>Metro- Edina, EP, Jefferson, Apple Valley, Eastview, Roseville, Kennedy, Chaska<br><br>privates- hill murray, AHA, breck, blake, benilde, TG, Lourdes, Cretin,<br><br>ineligible, Anoka, Coon Rapids, Elk River, White Bear for sake of being in the middle. Metro can't claim because not the cities but still too close to be considered northern.... <p></p><i></i>

Flashshot10
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:09 am

metro vs north

Post by Flashshot10 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:09 am

The metro is clearly the dominant region in the state, you can say what you want about Greenway, East, Moorhead (although not "northern") CEC, GR, whatever.... the metro dominates and I can only see their dominance escalating. <br><br>It's hard to beat numbers.... <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

metro

Post by jr » Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:59 am

The metro is the strongest year in and out.<br><br>Kennedy and Chaska do not belong among the top 8. My goodness Kennedy got beat by Maple Grove and Como in a Christmas tourney. <p></p><i></i>

nodakfan8
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:40 pm

who is best

Post by nodakfan8 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:40 am

Jr. the metro is the has strongest schools year in and year out and with the private A schools being in the cities it make it tough to win at the A level for the smaller A schools, However, I think I Falls and Warroad will have something to say about the A champ this year. <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

Northern Teams, Metro Teams, Private Teams

Post by JLS 81 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:17 am

Metro area teams dominate because of the following: <br>1. Greater numbers, As an example Grand Rapids might have 6-15 ("pure athlete") great hockey players per class (mites, squirts, pee wee, bantam, varsity). While a White Bear as an example could draw from 20-40 kids per mites, squirts, pee wee, bantam, varsity. A good example is in the Junior Gold ranks and Varsity Ranks. All metro teams go 4 lines deep, Northern schools a lucky to get 2-3 solid lines. Now there are exceptions to that from year to year, Greenway in 2000 had three really good lines.<br><br>2. Access to great facilities: Metro has great perks for this. Things like Acceleration Training (I forgot the real name). "Elite" camps galore. Access to play year round in every area metro clubs, you will all see these ads for mites, squirts, pee wee, bantam, varsity. Year round ice indoors. Kids can pick and choose when to play, how long to play spring, summer, winter and fall. Northern kids have few options like this, in Rapids our mites have a good fall league but we may only have 10 of the very best players from the association come out to play in the fall. So they will play against kids who are building skills to move to the next level, thus not really pushing them to as hard due to unequal talent levels. Fall time kids will opt to play soccer instead at that time of year, and that analogy would go right through the ranks of mite, squirt, pee wee, bantam, varstiy players. The great equlizer would be for northern towns like Grand Rapids, Greenway, Hibbing as well Roseau, Warroad. Lake Of the Woods to get as many kids involved in cooperative spring,summer, fall leagues as possible.<br><br>3.Coaching numbers: in the metro: This helps kids at all levels as the kids can get a good variety of coaching philosoply from spring, summer, fall leagues and than back to winter association leagues.<br><br>4. Weight training facitilies: Greater school budgets better facilites equal better athletes. Metro area kids have the advantage here as well.<br><br>5. Where kids in the north might still have a leg up is on outdoor skating. From what I have noticed anyway, just an obervation. In Rapids we get our mite kids on the ice up to 3-6 additional hours just playing rink rat hockey which is outside of practice. Practice for them in December, January, February eqautes to 2 hours indoors, and 6 hours outdoors practice time per week. This extra outdoor ice time is essential to good playmaking ability and I think the one ingrediant that helps northern teams compete still with the metro area teams.<br><br>6. If northern schools really wanted to build good hockey players they would do this. Open the indoor rinks during unscheduled time and charge kids a buck or 2 or even get the ice time underwritten to just let kids come and play. IRA Civic Center does have some open/idle ice times, even in the winter where kids could come in and just play. Split the rinks in half and have squirts/mites play on one rink. and Give the other sheet to Pee Wee and Batnams. Let the skate, skate, skate. I relaize indoor ice is not free, but towns need to quit looking at every hour of ice time as a money making venture. If there is open ice available let someone pay for it or at least let the kids play for a buck per head or $3.00 per head. Plas have more cooperative ventures with the Greenway's the Hibbings the Roseaus and the Worroads. I know this sounds nutty but coaches, associations, players need to get the word out on fall leagues in their respective areas. This helps get the best area kids out playing. A goo example why not have Hibbing, Greenway, Grand Rapids kids in the Rapids fall league. We had to my knowledge one Chisholm and one Hibbing kid come to our mite fall. I told the parents thanks for coming, glad to have, bring more kids next year! It is time to think outside the box on this type of organization. Get the kids playing from all the area together in summer or fall leagues. They need to competition that the metro kids get to experience in their "off season" leagues.<br><br>There is much more I could add but in final analysis metro kids have all the great perks for perfecting their game. It is astounding to me this day in age the smaller northern teams still can compete at a very competitive level. Rapids, Moorhead, Greenway. I-Falls still play metro teams very, very tough. Greenway taking a third at state is very good. Roseau taking a first at state is outstanding this day in age. So metro teams will have a "leg up" for all mentioned above. But still northern teams will get the exceptional classes where the numbers just win out and a Greenway, Rapids or Roseau will just have 15-25 very great athletes and will compete with metro teams and even beat them. <br>As well all association teams would be better served if we quit looking at age and starting placing kids in mite, squirt. pee wee, bantam based on talent not age. I know "hockey parents" would flip out but this would make development that much better. Ignore the 1-3% of whining parents and do it. Start this in the northern associations and than transfer to the metro.<br>It is all about making better hockey players anyway. So I wish all kids whether metro or outstate the best. <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... =jls81>JLS 81</A> at: 1/1/03 3:24:07 pm<br></i>

nodakfan8
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:40 pm

metro vs northern

Post by nodakfan8 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:36 am

A bit of good work on your part.. Most town up NORTH I Falls, LOW, Warroad, Roseau, Bemidji, TRF, and EGF to name a few have 2 or 3 indoor rinks and lots of ice time, which i think gives them their biggest advantage vs the city teams. Also we are starting to see some nice weight rooms. I also feel we get a chance to look at all of the kids and give them a chance to play the game. <p></p><i></i>

HOCKEYGUY009
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:42 am

nodak???????

Post by HOCKEYGUY009 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:42 am

oswald????? <p></p><i></i>

WarriorFan01
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:36 pm

Re: nodak???????

Post by WarriorFan01 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:36 pm

Warroad has one of the nicest weight rooms around, brand new equipment about 5 years or so ago. ice time is getting to be a problem with only 2 rinks, boys and girls high school teams, and the younger ranks plus the islandsers, a senior hockey league team we are running short of room. There has been talk of building yet a 3rd rink which i hope they do. Also all open hockey/open skating is free of charge to the public too <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:04 pm

Re: Let's settle this...

Post by bdabbt75 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:00 pm

I can't help but chuckle... The question is fundamentally divisive... Silly me to believe that powers short of the AllPowerful (and I don't mean Herb Brooks) can quell this debate.<br><br><br>- Bud<br><br><br>I doubt you'd get universal agreement that the puck is the same size in minneapolis and Warroad;-)<br><br>btw, to me... 'north' is area code 218. Hell, you even have to deal with 'south' as well. (507). 'metro' is St Cloud to Hastings<br>Cambridge to Lakeville in my book. Not that it matters... They only give out 2 state championships, and they ain't doled out by area code. Any debate on which region is better, is like arguing which side of the pillow is best to sleep on...<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Videoscout
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:50 am

Ms. North Dominatrix

Post by Videoscout » Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:25 pm

Let's see ... if I live in Bagley ... my choices are Bagley and Bemidji if I want to play within a 30-mile radius.<br><br>Hmmmmmm .... if I live in St. Paul ... my choices are at least 100 different schools within a 30 mile radius.<br><br>I wonder if I have a better chance to play on a variety of strong teams with open enrollment, and sheer numbers in population, not to mention if one arena is unavailable for 'open hockey' then I can choose between 10 others within a ten minute drive (indoors, mind you).<br><br>Sounds like a loaded question to me ...<br><br>So my answer is this:<br><br>Best teams per capita, without question, come from the North.<br><br><!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :hat --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> - "End of story" (I'm with Bud on this one) <p></p><i></i>

goldy313
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Northern Teams, Metro Teams, Private Teams

Post by goldy313 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 5:55 pm

JLS, you made some great points, I'have got a couple to add.<br><br>Back in '84 when the change to red line icing was made, (a good change) only three smaller schools have advanced to the championship game. Used to be if you had one good line you kept them out to score and used your other line to dump and chase, basically giving your top line a rest. One pass and throw it in didn't take much talent. Now it's a numbers game, if you don't have three lines it's tough to go far. Teams like Grand Rapids simply don't have the numbers any more. Add Rapids good wrestling and basketball programs to the mix and where are going to find the kids? Schools with 3000 kids could and should be able to produce more quality players. I fear going to more games and longer periods will do more damage to smaller programs.<br><br>The more indoor ice, the more teams rely on it. Rochester used to have 3 sheets and competed with the top talent in the state, now we have 5 sheets and can't get out of section 1. This extra school excuse is non sense, the population has gone up nearly 30,000 the past 25 years, and the local economy has gotten stronger. Youth teams do not use outdoor ice, and the cost for youth hockey (to pay for extra indoor ice) has sky rocketed driving families away. Austin which has one sheet has won more games at state than the rest of section 1 combined since '89. Section 1 is pathetic, but my point stands. There are probably less indoor sheets of ice per capita in the metro than up north. I'd be interested to know if metro area YHA use outdoor ice. <br><br>I could also get into my anti USA hokey rant, but I won't.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

North - Metro - Private

Post by JLS 81 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:02 pm

This commentary and debate could go on forever. Strength (metro- north or north - metro) I hope will continually evolve as it has done in the past. I do think with shrinking class sizes in the northern schools, communities will begin to think "outside the box" to enhance their respective programs. At least I hope and warn that they had better if they wish to remain competitive with the metro teams. Metro schools to their credit (who used to get outplayed by northern teams ) got the coaching to make their teams play better team hockey (focus on moving the puck, rather than the old dump and chase) now you see that there is not a whole lot of difference between metro and northern team play. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... =jls81>JLS 81</A> at: 1/2/03 3:18:41 pm<br></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

Goldy313 lets hear your rant on USA Hockey

Post by JLS 81 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:13 pm

Goldy313,<br>great insight on what is going on in the smaller communities. You are correct sir. Rapids has a shrinking enrollment and for fact is losing the better athletes each year to Basketball and even wrestling. As well they have skiing alpine and cross country both. A lot for a school with declining enrollment. Plus hockey is losing its focus a bit in this town, replaced by basketball sad to say as the "big" sport. <br>I coach at the mite level so want to hear your comments. I have a philosophy that losing one kid at the mite level is a great loss to the future of the program. So if we lose a kid to basketball it drives me nuts. Anything to make it more fun, challanging and rewarding to kids the better my friend. Please share. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... =jls81>JLS 81</A> at: 1/1/03 7:21:52 pm<br></i>

birdmister
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:27 pm

roseau tries

Post by birdmister » Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:27 pm

First i should say that this Northern-Metro-Private thing will never be settled so this topic is pointless, but it is good at getting a persons attention.<br><br>Now, as for why JLS should keep his mouth shut about northern schools not wanting to have large hockey programs or however it goes. I will just compare roseau to this however, since it is all i know.<br><br>1. Well this one i agree with. It is easier for Metro schools to come up with the numbers of solid lines.<br><br>2. This one is fine. Our schools are small. They just dont have the numbers to have fall winter and spring leagues. This would either take away to many kids from the other sports, or leave the team sizes very small for the leagues.<br><br>3. Of course this is my personal opinion, like it was yours, but i dont beleive that having many coaches throughout your life is such a good thing. Coaches have different styles. This just forces the players to get out of old habits each time they find a new coach and it is harder to find your own style of play.<br><br>4. Yes other schools have more money so they can through a weight room in their arena. Roseau doesn't have a weight room in their arena but they do have one thin their school that is open all day long and is free to use as a student. (to bad i never choose to use this)<br><br>5. Well we never had to practice outdoors. No one plays outdoors anymore so what is the point of being a step up on outdoor skills. (I didn't understand this one too well so i hit it the best i could)<br><br>6. Ice time is free!.....in roseau, and guess what. It is split between levels too. Every team has their practice times, their open hockey times, and their game times. Plus our arenas find the time to fit in a mondy night league for tiny mites and mites, and open skating. I beleive roseau tries.<br><br>I had a friend who moved from roseau to elk river and he explained some of the differences to me.<br><br>In elk river he had to pay almost a grand to play youth hockey. In roseau..we pay like 140 or something like that. I know that elk river (and many other metro schools) supply some equipment, but why pay a grand a year when up north we maybe pay 2 grand the whole time we are in youth hockey for equpiment and fees. Do they hold fund raisers there?<br><br>he also explained to me how hard it is to fine ice time. It is open all year round, but in the winter it is tough. And when you do find some you have to pay for it. Yeah well this is what i think. <p></p><i></i>

goldy313
Posts: 3949
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: roseau tries

Post by goldy313 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:22 pm

My anti USA hockey rant....<br> <br> First off, years ago MAHA ran youth hockey with a very hands off policy, each local assoc. was pretty much left to itself, other than certifying referees and setting up districts they didn't do a whole lot. Compare that to now; USA hockey puts a fee on every player, coach, and official. It wouldn't be so bad, but this money doesn't stay here. If you want to coach you HAVE to go to one of their clinics, you HAVE to coach their way. Do this, go there, it's straight out of a book. How many good coaches have quit becaus of this? Used to be Minnesota was the leader in amateur hockey, now we have to run our program same as Michigan, Massachusetts, etc., and guess what? we are lagging behind. The trend towards less government doesn't apply here I guess, I don't quite understand this dictatorship known as USA hockey.<br><br> The practice-game ratio is a stupid idea, it totally discounts having fun. See above about the coaching. The suggested ratio is 3-1, Rochester uses a 5-1 for squirts. That goes a long way into causing the tremendous drop out rate, while skating drills are needed, so is having fun. Supermites here no longer play games, Squirts play 11, unless you make a traveling team, and some can't afford it. I've lost two sons to wrestling, hockey is just no fun. I can't blame them, when I coached, I considered it a successful year if everyone signed up again the next season, the goal should be to have fun, look into the eyes of a 5 year old, if you don't see fun something is wrong. When a kid asks "how much longer" something is wrong.<br> Now it's such an elitist, expensive sport, to many kids are driven out way to early. Worse many more are never exposed to it; look no further than Minneapolis how many good athletes never get a chance due to cost? It's a shame, no other sport treats their youth like a factory, why does hockey have too? <br><br>USA hockeys priorities are so out of whack it makes me sick. Development, Development, Development, what % of all hockey players make it to even a high school varsity? not many. In my opinion we need to get kids involved and playing games at home early. Let them have fun first, then work on development after they're hooked on the game. This will increase the numbers thereby increasing the quality of players. Go to any youth wrestling association ,this is how they do it. Instant reward, for participation makes the younger ones smile, not stopping drill after stopping drill. USA hockey needs to look at the game through the eyes of a grade schooler not an adult. <br><br>In a matter of full disclosure, I'm not allowed to coach anymore because my supermites played games (Tenny ball hockey, duck duck goose, tag etc.) for half of practice and worked on game skills the other half. We won all but 2 games and 13 of 14 kids played again the next year. But that wasn't fair to the other teams who did stopping drills for an hour I guess. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

USA Hockey Rant

Post by JLS 81 » Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:35 am

goldy313, Thanks for encapsulating your views on USA Hockey. All the reasons you stated are in fact the very reason associations lose hockey players. And of course the money our kids have to pay to USA hockey goes to some very nice salaries at the USA level. The state of the game at the kids level is for certain resulting in continual loss of our most precious resources...the kids. We lose them left and right. You are so correct...they are drilled to death. Our Rapids program is proof positive of that. Our mites have had all of October and November full of drill practices. Now over Christmas break the same usa hockey drills, for 2 hours straight! We seem to have lost any sense of what it was to be a kid. Thanks for your viewpoint on this subject. By the way if you want to move to Grand Rapids we could sure use you as a coach. Good news is there are a few coaches who share your viewpoint and are working to change things. <p></p><i></i>

the big t
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:18 pm

Re: USA Hockey Rant

Post by the big t » Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:06 am

usa hockey is all about developement of players for the nhl, period that is how they measure their success. don't believe me. check out their web site and press releases the last couple years. questions on why the usa has not created more great players. their answer, create an elite league or team where 15-16 year olds can excellerate their game. they are not interested in your 7-8 olds enjoyment of the game. make them into little powerskating hockey playing robots much the same way the russians did back in the 60's. sad.<br><br>the best practice is still drop the kid off at the outdoor rink and let him or her play. <p></p><i></i>

lightnthelamp02
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:00 am

Re: Lets settle North vs Metro vs private a little bit...

Post by lightnthelamp02 » Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:08 am

northern hockey is the best hockey you will ever find. it is how hockey is played, Physical and the puck moves fast. <p></p><i></i>

hattricknightly02
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:11 am

south sucks

Post by hattricknightly02 » Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:11 am

south hockey sucks somthin awful i can't believe anyone would even compare south with metro and north their are no good teams in the south and too that kid from new ulm thats the reason they get no respect <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:04 pm

okay, I'll bite.

Post by bdabbt75 » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:12 am

"... there are no good teams in the south...."<br><br>redwing is south. 2nd in the state last year in A. Where was Ifalls? 2 and out?<br><br>Lourdes is south. 2nd two years ago (beat hermantown to get there)..., 3rd last year. Beat DL 3 years ago to make to the consolation finals. <br><br>let's see <br>Ifalls record against lourdes in the last 4 years?<br>1-2-1?<br><br>and just what kid from New Ulm? jamie Hoffman? seems he's doing better than biondich in his quest for d1 hockey.<br><br>or are you confusing waseca with new ulm? <br><br>obtw, lourdes has more players playing in D1 (2) that Ifalls (1), and the same committed (1 and 1 both to the U), and heck there are like 10 kids from Rochester in D1... god I hate the quality of those southern hockey players.<br><br>now... hattrick... I'll agree that the fourth best southern school _may_ not be as good as the 4th best northern school... but my position is that your absolutism is a bit out of line.<br><br>-bud<br> <p></p><i></i>

nodakfan8
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:40 pm

south hockey

Post by nodakfan8 » Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:17 pm

THANKS bdabbt75... But I hope you don't think all northern hockey fans are as clueless as the two you just enlighten. Some Northern hockey teams won't play teams that play physical hockey, they prefer to play the skilled, only hockey, so I am not sure what the statement about northern hockey being physical was about. <p></p><i></i>

Hockaholic
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:59 pm

hatticknightly

Post by Hockaholic » Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:35 pm

I thought I read in one of your posts that you are from I. Falls. If that is true please show some class. Or at least tell me your from somewhere else. Jealousy isn't going to win games. The south has proved that lately. <p></p><i></i>

birdmister
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:27 pm

quality of players

Post by birdmister » Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:25 pm

Well bdabbit, what are you goin on about. You named maybe 15 playes in d1 hockey from the south. I know that isn't all of them, but look at the D1 players from the north. In the history of hockey, look at the NHL players from the north compared to the south. <p></p><i></i>

nodakfan8
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:40 pm

north south

Post by nodakfan8 » Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:30 pm

birdmister... you are right. But we did have a big head start. <p></p><i></i>

birdmister
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:27 pm

really

Post by birdmister » Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:38 pm

i wasn't aware of that. Maybe i should read the minnesota hockey history book i got like 5 years ago. Maybe it would help me know what i am actually talking about on here sometimes. <p></p><i></i>

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