Monticello - Annandale - Maple Lake = Class A?

[HShockeywatcher]

Some details on this one at the bottom of today's Strib article on realignment for you, Bo:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/29622 ... page=2&c=y

Here's where you would have found the numbers.. Not sure if he's just counting traveling teams. Current numbers seem to be in the 240 range.

This says "...seven players from Maple Lake and 18 from Annandale in our youth program out of 165." That would be 140 from Monticello. Which makes 1 data point. Are association numbers publicly available anywhere?

I would love to have a data driven discussion, but to do that we need data...

If you are looking for the CO-OP enrollment numbers for each team the MSHSL website has the enrollment numbers for each school....If you are looking for participating numbers from each school in the CO-OP, I don't know if those would be available from the state( privacy laws being what they are)

I'm aware of enrollment numbers, but those don't seem to be that relevant for a co-op though. If a school has 5 players that play hockey and are looking for a school to let them play on a high school team, adding the entire school's enrollment to the home school's enrollment doesn't seem like it makes sense.
Which really seems to be what is happening in this case. Monticello has been "the team that gets crushed in the quarterfinals" for decades in 8AA. To find out now that Monticello has [likely] had a Class A enrollment all this time and they were only in AA because of a co-op with programs that needed a place to play seems...subpar.

It doesn't seem to be a legal issue; likely just something that there is little practical reason to track. My guess at least.

What happens if you attend a school that doesn't have a specific team you want to play? Are you just out of luck or is there a way for you individually to play on a nearby team?

[MrBoDangles]

Google: Moose have plenty of Annandale skaters

Article is from a few years ago, but like I said before, incoming numbers might be lower, but they're probably the schools better athletes. Again, I know that their best player is from Annandale.. So your small numbers, few incoming coop theory, has no merit. Each school has their own football team!!

Then add in the effort to find hockey players from Europe..

I've talked to people I know from 8aa, 6a and 5a.. They ALL say the same thing: "it was a HUGE SCAM pulled off by a few with some major pull". I'll hold back on some ugly details..

[HShockeywatcher]

Google: Moose have plenty of Annandale skaters

Article is from a few years ago, but like I said before, incoming numbers might be lower, but they're probably the schools better athletes. Again, I know that their best player is from Annandale.. So your small numbers, few incoming coop theory, has no merit. Each school has their own football team!!

Then add in the effort to find hockey players from Europe..

I've talked to people I know from 8aa, 6a and 5a.. They ALL say the same thing: "it was a HUGE SCAM pulled off by a few with some major pull". I'll hold back on some ugly details..

Nice article for reference. So, 6 years ago, in the 2010-2011 season there were 13 skaters from Annandale on varsity. Great reference and data point, but they didn't move down to Class A until last year. The article from last year said they now have 18 players from Annandale in their youth program, so my guess is that there are less than 13 varsity skaters from Annandale.

As for your football comment, having a football team doesn't mean anything with relationship to hockey. There are 7 classes in football, more than 300 football teams in the state; more teams with a football team don't have a hockey team than those who do.
AA hockey is basically 6A and 5A football plus Totino and A hockey is everyone else.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Google: Moose have plenty of Annandale skaters

Article is from a few years ago, but like I said before, incoming numbers might be lower, but they're probably the schools better athletes. Again, I know that their best player is from Annandale.. So your small numbers, few incoming coop theory, has no merit. Each school has their own football team!!

Then add in the effort to find hockey players from Europe..

I've talked to people I know from 8aa, 6a and 5a.. They ALL say the same thing: "it was a HUGE SCAM pulled off by a few with some major pull". I'll hold back on some ugly details..

Nice article for reference. So, 6 years ago, in the 2010-2011 season there were 13 skaters from Annandale on varsity. Great reference and data point, but they didn't move down to Class A until last year. The article from last year said they now have 18 players from Annandale in their youth program, so my guess is that there are less than 13 varsity skaters from Annandale.

As for your football comment, having a football team doesn't mean anything with relationship to hockey. There are 7 classes in football, more than 300 football teams in the state; more teams with a football team don't have a hockey team than those who do.
AA hockey is basically 6A and 5A football plus Totino and A hockey is everyone else.

Then what does it mean when Monticello Football goes 6-2 in 5A football?

[HShockeywatcher]

Then what does it mean when Monticello Football goes 6-2 in 5A football?

To quote myself: "having a football team doesn't mean anything with relationship to hockey."

[alcloseshaver]

They did make sure they were placed with the traditionally weaker teams in football when district scheduling started last year so there is a bit of track record here. I don't see it as a big issue, it is only for 1 more year and their sports are trending in the right direction with the current leadership. Give them credit for what they thought was in the best interests of the program. Not exactly talking about Hermantown or St. Thomas here.

[MrBoDangles]

A school could only provide five players to a coop, but they could all be studs.. You have now seen a representation of how many can come from just one of the smaller high schools, but you still don't get it!

Are you not able to see that monticello would be nothing without the coop? The extra schools are everything to the program!! Not the non factor that you try to describe!!

Cambridge:
-500 less students
-have been pounded yearly in sectionals
-way smaller youth association
-youth had to combine with St. Francis to to put an 1A team on the ice like MAML
-higher income in the MAML area to attract players

*numbers are numbers.. If they are part of the coop, they're numbers count. I'm sure the area the Cambridge association covers has areas where few players come from, too.

Cambridge should be the type of program moved to class A.

Go it alone for class A, or keep the coop and play where you belong!!

[alcloseshaver]

Should have left Hermantown in 5A. Problem solved

[MrBoDangles]

Then what does it mean when Monticello Football goes 6-2 in 5A football?

To quote myself: "having a football team doesn't mean anything with relationship to hockey."

Means a ton! You have three different schools developing athletes/leaders on three different football fields. If these top athletes don't like basketball/wrestling they're going to play/try hockey... And this is why you see the percentage numbers skewed by these two smaller schools on the MAML varsity.

Again, their top player is from Annandale
Again, drop to A, but seek out Europeans
Again, article shows that its no rarity for players from the two schools to make varsity.

They pulled a fast one..

[MrBoDangles]

Should have left Hermantown in 5A. Problem solved

They did pull the fast one as soon as they left..

They never would have tried to move.

[Goldy Gopher]

Let's just go back to the two tier system.

[GoldyGopher]

Then what does it mean when Monticello Football goes 6-2 in 5A football?

To quote myself: "having a football team doesn't mean anything with relationship to hockey."

Means a ton! You have three different schools developing athletes/leaders on three different football fields. If these top athletes don't like basketball/wrestling they're going to play/try hockey... And this is why you see the percentage numbers skewed by these two smaller schools on the MAML varsity.

Again, their top player is from Annandale
Again, drop to A, but seek out Europeans
Again, article shows that its no rarity for players from the two schools to make varsity.

They pulled a fast one..

Well if having a football team means so much we should go campaign at Waubun and Steven Argyle etc.... Imagine the power houses they could be in class A hockey with the good football teams they have had.......................

Who is the best player you speak of? The leading goal scorer plays defense and is the QB of Monticello.. So I'm guessing its not him. I'm fairly certain Ben Ward who is leading in points isn't European and Zwack is second there too.

[HShockeywatcher]

Hockey is different than other sports when it comes to numbers. It is one of the only sports/activities that is really hard (impossible?) to jump into in high school. I have been saying for years that I think classes for hockey should be determined by something other than enrollment, since who can play for you is determined by something other than enrollment. The general population of a high school can step onto a football field or into a pool with no experience, the same isn't true about a sheet of ice. There's a reason that schools smaller than Maple Lake have their own teams...

A school could only provide five players to a coop, but they could all be studs.. You have now seen a representation of how many can come from just one of the smaller high schools, but you still don't get it!

Are you not able to see that monticello would be nothing without the coop? The extra schools are everything to the program!! Not the non factor that you try to describe!!

Go it alone for class A, or keep the coop and play where you belong!!

Honestly, why do you keep making statements about what I'm "trying to do?" All I've been doing for probably double digit posts here is to information gather and learn; I have no dog in this fight.

What I am trying to understand better is why Monticello is co-oping and why Annandale/Maple Lake are co-oping with them. For a school like Monticello to have 13 of their varsity spots be from a co-op team a few years ago suggests they possibly have numbers issues, or maybe it was just a good crew from Annandale. It's entirely possible that Monticello needs to co-op to put a team on the ice, which is why I ask about numbers. If Monticello didn't need the numbers, it would seem to make more sense for Annandale/Maple Lake to co-op with someone like Buffalo or have Annandale join a co-op like Litchfield and only ML co-op with Buffalo or Monticello.

For reference, Buffalo is the 29th biggest school in the state, Cambridge-Isanti 54th and Monticello 70th. Annandale is 137th and Maple Lake is 188th.

[MrBoDangles]

Future athletes are obvious at a very young age.. Some of these football players are also choosing to play hockey. The spotlight for their football team is turning them into all around athletes... On three football fields.. Three baseball fields. Some of the top athletes from all three schools come together to play hockey. It's not like it's 95% monticello kids like you were getting at earlier, and that the extra students meant nothing.

We'll agree to disagree..

[MrBoDangles]

Princeton (900 students) had a co op with Milaca (450) students a few years back and had to play in 7AA. They eventually had to drop the co op to be allowed to plain in A

MAML 1900 students

Princeton - Milaca had 1350 students



I bet some in the Princeton program would love the boost of another 800 students from Annandale - Maple Lake and still play A.. But they obviously don't have the same pull with the decision makers..

Someone should probably explain this to all the past Princeton and Milaca kids how this worked out..

This is nuts!!!

Princeton had to drop Milaca to play in 5A with Hermantown.

MAML was able to stay together (1900 students) and drop to 5A without Hermantown...?

Total slap in the face for the former Princeton - Milaca coop..

[bardown27]

So if MAML doesn't win the section will you quit whining?

[MrBoDangles]

So if MAML doesn't win the section will you quit whining?

Whining is when you're wrong and trying to get your way.. I'm just exposing a scam for a trophy grab..

What's done, is done.

I would have been happy being done talking about it a long time ago.. Just don't quote me for a response and we'll let it slide down the page!

[zooomx]

So if MAML doesn't win the section will you quit whining?

Whining is when you're wrong and trying to get your way.. I'm just exposing a scam for a trophy grab..

What's done, is done.

I would have been happy being done talking about it a long time ago.. Just don't quote me for a response and we'll let it slide down the page!

Just looked it up on dictionary.com: to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way:
He is always whining about his problems.

Just sayin...

[HShockeywatcher]

Future athletes are obvious at a very young age.. Some of these football players are also choosing to play hockey. The spotlight for their football team is turning them into all around athletes... On three football fields.. Three baseball fields. Some of the top athletes from all three schools come together to play hockey. It's not like it's 95% monticello kids like you were getting at earlier, and that the extra students meant nothing.

We'll agree to disagree..

I haven't been "getting at" anything earlier. I still have zero idea of the composition of the HS varsity or JV teams this year. The only numbers we have are that a) 25 of the 165 (15%) skaters in their youth association last year are from A/ML and b) that 6 seasons ago the varsity appeared to have 13 skaters.

You've also made claims about members of the current roster that someone else has refuted and you haven't responded to...

You have someone who is genuinely willing to agree with you if you can provide numbers for what you are claiming and you aren't doing it. I'm running out of gas over here...

[Mite-dad]

Future athletes are obvious at a very young age.. Some of these football players are also choosing to play hockey. The spotlight for their football team is turning them into all around athletes... On three football fields.. Three baseball fields. Some of the top athletes from all three schools come together to play hockey. It's not like it's 95% monticello kids like you were getting at earlier, and that the extra students meant nothing.

We'll agree to disagree..

I don't agree with MAML playing in A, but I see no connection with football and hockey. Most kids are hockey players long before they are football players.

[GoldyGopher]

Hockey is different than other sports when it comes to numbers. It is one of the only sports/activities that is really hard (impossible?) to jump into in high school. I have been saying for years that I think classes for hockey should be determined by something other than enrollment, since who can play for you is determined by something other than enrollment. The general population of a high school can step onto a football field or into a pool with no experience, the same isn't true about a sheet of ice. There's a reason that schools smaller than Maple Lake have their own teams...

A school could only provide five players to a coop, but they could all be studs.. You have now seen a representation of how many can come from just one of the smaller high schools, but you still don't get it!

Are you not able to see that monticello would be nothing without the coop? The extra schools are everything to the program!! Not the non factor that you try to describe!!

Go it alone for class A, or keep the coop and play where you belong!!

Honestly, why do you keep making statements about what I'm "trying to do?" All I've been doing for probably double digit posts here is to information gather and learn; I have no dog in this fight.

What I am trying to understand better is why Monticello is co-oping and why Annandale/Maple Lake are co-oping with them. For a school like Monticello to have 13 of their varsity spots be from a co-op team a few years ago suggests they possibly have numbers issues, or maybe it was just a good crew from Annandale. It's entirely possible that Monticello needs to co-op to put a team on the ice, which is why I ask about numbers. If Monticello didn't need the numbers, it would seem to make more sense for Annandale/Maple Lake to co-op with someone like Buffalo or have Annandale join a co-op like Litchfield and only ML co-op with Buffalo or Monticello.

For reference, Buffalo is the 29th biggest school in the state, Cambridge-Isanti 54th and Monticello 70th. Annandale is 137th and Maple Lake is 188th.

Litch already has a co-op with Dassel-Cokato. I'd guess with any more schools they'd be awfully close to AA numbers and Dangles would still be whining.

[HShockeywatcher]

Litch already has a co-op with Dassel-Cokato. I'd guess with any more schools they'd be awfully close to AA numbers and Dangles would still be whining.

For reference, there is 1 current co-op that has combined enrollment bigger than the 64th biggest school who are in AA from not opting up and that is Dodge County (2696). The idea of that seems to go against the nature of why teams co-op and why we have classes. If you need 7 different schools to come together to form a team and don't have the numbers to break off into two (or more) separate teams, making you play in the higher class, in hockey, is silly.

There are currently 8 Class A schools that are co-ops and have combined enrollments over the 1181 of the 64th biggest school in MN. There's also Como Park that had a team last year but doesn't this year and Fairmont that is 2 students off:
River Lakes (8 schools, 2440)
Minneapolis (6 schools, 5903)
Monticello (3 schools, 1869)
Minnehaha (5 schools, 1681)
New Ulm (5 schools, 1269)
Winona (2 schools, 1202, 1153 last year)
LSHSPTCUC (4 schools, 1302)
Faribault (4 schools, 1193, 1239 last year)

Fairmont (5 schools, 1179)
Como Park (4 schools, 2986)

It's worth noting that the listed enrollments are this year and the section assignments were made last year so things can change. It is really interesting seeing so many that are in Class A and the exception seems to be having teams in AA.

[MrBoDangles]

The whiners are the ones keeping this going, obviously.

You have three schools to form multi sport athletes. The one goldygopher talked about (from monti) is qb of the football team, plays hockey and just signed to play D-1 baseball. You'll get this same representation from the other schools.. Isn't USA Hockey always talking about the importance of multi sport athletes? Well, you obviously get more with three schools. I think this is why the MAML coop is getting some good athletes from these two other schools. I ONLY brought up football to show the opportunity for potential athletes from the other schools.. Simple simon..

13 players from Annandale and then try to minimalize it.. Hshw was trying to show the other two schools are not important to the coop and shouldn't count towards AA numbers.. I think the extra numbers are very important to them and should have kept them in A. Simple as that!

Again, ready to be done.

[HShockeywatcher]

13 players from Annandale and then try to minimalize it.. Hshw was trying to show the other two schools are not important to the coop and shouldn't count towards AA numbers.. I think the extra numbers are very important to them and should have kept them in A. Simple as that!

Again, ready to be done.

Those 13 players were on the teams 6 years ago when the team was in AA. You haven't provided numbers for this year; I suppose last year would be more important.

Despite you continuing to claim motive, I "wasn't trying to show" anything other than a possibility since, ya know, I don't have data to back up anything. I'd love to have them though. If you have them, it'd be great to get them.

[elliott70]

The DATA is simple.
They have AA numbers.

So the question remains, "What criteria is used to place a AA school in single A?"