Herbies comments

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Herbies comments

Post by joe lulic » Thu May 15, 2003 12:00 pm

I just read excerpts from Herb Brooks interview with USA Hockey Junior magazine. He rips the NTDP in Ann Arbor and scolds a lot of the "elite" programs as being more for identifying the good players now instead of being developmental. I dont usually agree with him but I think he is dead on this time. What do you guys think? You can read it at letsplayhockey.com/. <p></p><i></i>

hubbaa
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:52 am

herbie...

Post by hubbaa » Thu May 15, 2003 12:08 pm

Joe, <br><br>I agree with both of you on this one. all we have to do is look at the last couple of usa olympic teams and see only one or two players from mn. compare this to the olympic teams of 20 years ago and this is embarressing. development has to be the priority, especially in this state. <p></p><i></i>

Eddie Shore
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:38 am

Re: Herbies comments

Post by Eddie Shore » Thu May 15, 2003 12:24 pm

While Herb sometimes comes from left field with a few of his comments, I believe he has hit the nail on the head here, especially with his first two points.<br><br>The NTDP, while a nice idea in theory, is a money pit. Players opting to leave home early could develop just as well (if not better) in the USHL. Nothing against Moe Mantha or any of the guys in Ann Arbor, but is it worth $2 mil a year? USA Hockey's money could be better spent.<br><br>Achunk of that money could and should go to the development of a broader base of talent. Herb's second point about using the select (advanced) program more effectively is outstanding. Currently, the selct program is nothing more than a player identification tool. I know, I know - players do pick up some good coaching and learn a few things going though the process. But wouldn't it be better if we could keep the various district/section select teams in Minnesota together for 2 or 3 months with an emphasis on skill development? Obviously some bugs would need to be worked out, but a chunk of that $2 mil from Ann Arbor could solve some of the financial challenge an enhanced select program could present.<br><br>I'm interested to hear some thoughts on this topic. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: Herbies comments

Post by joe lulic » Thu May 15, 2003 12:49 pm

I dont really know that much about all these different programs but it seems to me that we spend way too much time deciding who is better or will be D1 etc etc. We are all big expert talent evaluators but we need to spend more time and resources on broad based development. I mean, you see Squirt coaches more concerned about the make up of their lines than teaching them how to skate. At an early age they are evaluated more than developed. <br>2 million bucks could buy a lot of skating instruction and ice time for kids. We spend it instead on 40 kids who may be some of the best right now but also may fall back into the pack in a couple of years. <br><br>I also think that our time and money would be better spent developing kids on and off the ice during the off season rather than putting them on display for college coaches in so called elite leagues. <br><br>I will crawl in my fox hole now. <p></p><i></i>

rustyblade
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 8:09 am

Thoughts

Post by rustyblade » Thu May 15, 2003 2:24 pm

Herbie is right this time! If you recall though, it was not too long ago that Herbie was also declaring that we must do more for the Elite players in Minnesota. That was/is true, but somewhere down the line they forgot about the development of players who may not quite be there, but given a chance, will turn into fine players. <br><br>Lets remember too, that the mega-bucks spent on players at the Development Camp were not always spent on the "best" of the crop! Many talented players stayed in highschool and others simply chose to play juniors elsewhere, so that money was spent on who ever showed up! <br><br>Better to develop a flood of players than a trickle of talent! <p></p><i></i>

juniorhockey
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:54 pm

Herb

Post by juniorhockey » Thu May 15, 2003 11:40 pm

Herbs thoughts on the Development Program are, in my opinion, right on the money. I never would have known unless I knew how much money USA Hockey spent on it. <br><br>However when it comes to Development at the local level, we've had it for a long time. Minnesota has the STP Program which many hockey organizations across the state fail to use. Why? Everything that these kids need is wrapped up into a single off-season program. <br><br><br><br>To who stated how Minnesota lacks representation on Olympic teams. I don't think it's fair to say that Minnesota has lost it's impact when the sport of hockey in general has mushroomed in participants since the 80's. Numerous other States have gradually improved their programs much to their credit.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Eddie Shore
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:38 am

Re: Herb

Post by Eddie Shore » Fri May 16, 2003 6:40 am

Juniorhockey makes an excellent point about STP. It is an outstanding program and the programs that utilize STP experience tremendous results, but STP faces a couple of challenges. First, many programs do not have access to summer ice (or if they do, it is very limited). Second, many of the best players - more accurately, their parents - fail to see the value of STP. They continue to go down the AAA path. More dollars from USA Hockey could help Minnesota Hockey to promote this program and develop more players and coaches on a local level. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: Herb

Post by joe lulic » Fri May 16, 2003 8:07 am

Eddie and junior, What is STP? <p></p><i></i>

juniorhockey
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:54 pm

STP

Post by juniorhockey » Fri May 16, 2003 9:30 am

Here is a link that describes it in more detail.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.minnesotahockey.org/Stp.htm" ... <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: STP

Post by joe lulic » Fri May 16, 2003 12:53 pm

Isn't that a little intense for an 11 year old or a 15 year old for that matter? 60 hours off ice and 30 hours on ice from June to August. No way you could play baseball. I guess maybe thats what you have to do to keep up but I think it is sad. <br>These kids ought to be playing ball and runnin naked through the sprinkler all summer or trying to sneak into the local pool and stealing green apples. Sure, get him a net and a shooting board for the driveway but 90 hours. Do these kids really like hockey that much? <p></p><i></i>

Eddie Shore
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:38 am

Re: STP

Post by Eddie Shore » Fri May 16, 2003 1:20 pm

Most STP programs do not follow the "guidelines" that you'll find on the Minnesota Hockey website. A typical STP program will last from 6-8 weeks and have the kids on the ice about three times per week plus dryland on those days. <br><br>When done properly, STP is set up so that if kids have other commitments (such as baseball, soccer, etc.), those come first. It's run a little differently in each community - some have more ice available, some have less. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

juniorhockey
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:54 pm

STP

Post by juniorhockey » Fri May 16, 2003 1:29 pm

Joe,<br><br>I can see where you are coming from. 90 hours in a summer can be a lot. But let's look at it honestly. It's a suggested time frame. Kids miss all the time for vacations, lack of a ride, and everything else. in fact, if you read Blatherwick often, you'd remember he encourages kids to play other sports to create a better athlete, which in turn creates a better hockey player. <br><br>Not everyone is Gretsky or Mario. We all know that. But MN Hockey has given you a blueprint to success. What you choose to do with it is up to you. It's not easy and it takes a sacrafice, much like anything in life, but the final results should pay some dividens. Frankly, I'm not sure what some people want, do they want a program that requires no work and they instantly become good? Sure. Will that ever happen? No. <br><br>This is why I feel the onus is on the player, not the trend(s) of Minnesota hockey. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: STP

Post by joe lulic » Fri May 16, 2003 1:50 pm

juniorhockey,<br>Thanks for the website info in response to my question. I read most of the articles and agree that most people say that it is best to play other sports. Hitting a baseball is hand eye development. It transfers to hockey. A give and go in soccer is the same as a give and go in hockey, it transfers. But I get confused. They tell me my son should play other sports but they offer a 90 hour summer hockey deal that would seem to make it impossuble to play baseball. Most traveling baseball teams will take up 4-5 nights a week. If you do 3 times a week in STP, how does that work?<br>And does it really pay didvidends? I am not so sure. If you put a kid into STP, I would certainly accept that he would be ahead in October but how about in February?<br> As far as what people want, I dont have a clue. I have conversations with people about this all the time. It seems that kids who play hockey in the summer are considersed as the kids who really like the game and the ones that make the sacrifice. Honestly, that makes me sick. I have two boys that love to play...from the time football ends until basebal starts, they eat breathe and sleep it. When summer rolls around, they do summer stuff. So they are "branded" as not dedicated to hockey. I guess I would like that to be different for all these kids.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

rustyblade
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 8:09 am

right on!

Post by rustyblade » Fri May 16, 2003 2:34 pm

In a small community the school relies on the good athletes to go out for more than one sport, and in many cases three sport athletes are common. <br><br>What I have seen in the hockey players over the last decade or so is the lack of a burning desire to play the game of hockey. Sure they still love to play, but how many actually get "butterflies" in their stomaches before every game so bad that they can hardly get too far from the toilet. This was a very comon occurance years ago. Players would get "knots" in their stomachs for the whole day of the game. Now they play more like robots and it is up to the coach to get the kids "fired up" for the game. <br><br>Give me the three sport athlete that burns with the desire to play the game rather than the kid who looks at it like just another game. <br><br>Just my thoughts but something is missing in todays player that was there not too long ago. <p></p><i></i>

Eddie Shore
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:38 am

Re: STP

Post by Eddie Shore » Fri May 16, 2003 3:01 pm

Joe,<br><br>In nearly fifteen years of coaching this game, I've been fortunate to have some very talented kids who've gone on to play beyond high school. And you know what? They all had different approaches. One of the best kids I ever coached (he's now playing in the WCHA) rarely picked up the skates in the summer because he was good at both baseball and golf and dedicated a lot of time to those sports. I had many others like him - maybe a camp or two plus individual workouts at home during the summer. Other kids were on the ice all the time. No two took exactly the same path. One common denominator among all of them was very supportive parents. Not crazy, over-the-top, Johnny is the next Gretzky parents - just good parents that supported their children in whatever they wanted to do.<br><br>If your kids are still young (not in HS yet), they should be playing other sports if they enjoy them. When they get to high school they may have to make choices, but they'll develop athleticism while growing up - and I firmly believe that athleticism is what many of our high school players today are missing.<br><br>In addition, I'd be interested to know who says your kids aren't dedicated to the game because they don't spend every 80 degree day in a hockey rink? I would be shocked if it were some of your better youth coaches or your high school coach. More likely some of the parents who push their kids to play 100 games per year and then feel that their kids got the shaft when they didn't make a team due to a lack of skill development.<br><br>Buy a couple of nets (you need two for street hockey), a piece of plexiglass to shoot pucks off of and find a good stickhandling video that shows players how to incorporate off-ice stickhandling circuits into their training. Have the kids work on their skills when they have the time and desire.<br><br>As far as STP, it's a wonderful program for the kids that take part in it. It's about individual skill development - something we need more of! Here's the question, Joe: Do your kids' coaches in the winter spend more time teaching skills or working on the breakout and the power play to win the next "big" game? <br><br>I've gone off on a tangent here...so back to the original topic at hand - Herb's comments. Regardless of what approach a player or his family wants to take, our governing hockey body could do a better job of allocating resources across the board to make sure that every kids has a better experience in this great game. <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

Too Much Too Early

Post by JLS 81 » Fri May 16, 2003 3:04 pm

We had this discussion at the rink too at the end of the year trying to figure out what the heck is going on in the game today. The conversation started with pondering why the boys from Rapids looked flat playing in the section 7 final. I mean the kids just did not look like a team that was playing in a big game, just another game. <br>I hate to knock the kids because I do not think it is their fault at all. Maybe they are starting way too early in life and going way too long into the year. Many start now at three in organized league play and they spend spring, summer winter and fall doing it! I never forget seeing, heck he had to be 4 years old tops shuttling into Bielenburg in Woodbury on a 90 degree July day to play hockey. I am sure it was little juniors wish to be there too (ya right mom and dad). The fire is not in the belly you can see that. I have noticed this for a good 5 years of seeming steady decline.<br>It has to be either the drugs they are feeding so many boys with so called attention deficate disorder; too many kids playing year round hockey; or just plain starting too darn young and going for too long of a season. Probably a combination of many things.<br>rustyblade you got my vote for a change and move back to the three sport athlete! <p></p><i></i>

juniorhockey
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:54 pm

STP

Post by juniorhockey » Fri May 16, 2003 3:37 pm

Joe,<br><br>You're welcome for the info. It's a great site with a lot of great information. <br><br>I'm glad I'm not in your pickel. It's obviously a tough choice for a parent and for a young player. kids need time to participate in orgainized sports and time to just hang out on their own. Where is the line? I can't say. <br><br>I have enjoyed reading everyones thoughts on this though. Maybe all it comes down to is who has the God given talent and who doesn't. Who am I to say.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:04 pm

off season

Post by bdabbt75 » Fri May 16, 2003 5:23 pm

we've morphed way off topic, but I agree with the current thread. <br><br>I remember when my kid was in PeeWee A's. several kids were skating year round, my wife and I took a formal statement and told my son that if he wanted to play football, he couldn't play fall hockey. During Tryouts it showed, but he his raw talent was there. By the middle of the season, you could see the kids that were spring summer fall hockey skating starting to develop a 1000 yard stare (how many russian circles can you do... how many breakouts can you run before it just becomes boredom), and it showed in the game play. My son on the other hand, became the a 3rd line wonder... excited about playing, playing every shift like it was his first one of the year, constantly getting moved up to the 2nd and 1st lines as the coach tried to 'light fires' under underperformers' butts.<br><br>At that point, I realized that an offseason is required for any kid, even if he loves the sport. Since most coaches have repetitive practices, moving from spring to summer to fall, all that changes is the sound of the coaches voice.<br><br>The NTDP is a variation of Juniors, pure and simple, and a costly one. I will say that the NTDP 'graduates' did win the World Juniors this year, so if becoming world competitive is the goal, it's working. Give it 8 years and see if it improves the olympic capacity. And we in MN are so blind to the fact that great athletes exist everywhere... Give me a raw talent (sprinter speed, linebacker heart, baseball hitter hand/eye) from west virginia and send him to NTDP or Juniors and I probably can make him into a great hockey player... He doesn't need to know how to say or find biwabik on a map to make him a internationally competitive player.<br><br>All that said... I agree with the statement developing a flood of players is better than a trickle of talent. But at some level that talent needs to be refined. NTDP is probably not the most cost effective, but it is the most controlled. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: off season

Post by joe lulic » Mon May 19, 2003 7:46 am

Eddie, Its really the parents who say " Hey you should really be doing what we are doing in the summer if you want your son to develop" They run around on 80 degree days playing AAA or whatever. I coach baseball and I will get calls like "Say, ah Drew has a hockey tournament and so can you work your rotation so he plays in the early innings?" Sick. So they leave the game in the 5th inning to run over to some ice rink on a 71 degree day to play hockey. I dunno.<br><br>It is a industry and a culture. It oughta be a game. If , as some have suggested , your child will only go as far as their God given talent, then a lot of us are being ripped off big time. <br><br>You asked about my experience with coaches and what they work on. There is always a mix. Some work on "game stuff" more than others. Most everyone works on skating. Shooting and stickhandling are neglected, in my opinion. <br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Locked