State of the game??

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

State of the game??

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:50 am

A question for everyone:<br><br>Would you like to see the game at all levels be called tight to get rid of the clutch, grab, hold, hook, mug, interfere and so on? This seems to be prevelant at the pros, college and some high school games. It does even things out somewhat. The refs aren't the ones who will change this. It must come from the powers above!<br><br>Or do you think this is good for the game? <p></p><i></i>

aceofspades
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:35 am

Clutch & Grab

Post by aceofspades » Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:35 am

Definitely. I believe the game has been going downhill since all of the interference has been going on. Guys doing all the stick work really prevents the game from being played how it was intended to. So what if teams score a lot of goals? The fact is the NHL drew more fans in the 80's and early 90's because the scoring was such a frequent occurrence. Now the league is like a downward spiral and the t.v. ratings are horrible. I love hockey, it'll always be that way. I don't want to see guys hanging all over their opponents to prevent them from showcasing their skills. I want to see good skills, goals that make my mouth drop and hits that are bone crushing without being cheap. Let's get back to solid hockey were there is no hooking or holding--that's not solid, it's just lazy. <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

Agree!

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:38 am

aceofspades: I agree completely! The style of play that is being played today makes many teams equal or close to it. <p></p><i></i>

oldschool
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:31 pm

sate of game

Post by oldschool » Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:50 am

Lets not get into the NHL here, thats a whole other topic with different issues.................the game of hockey is cleaned up a lot better than it used to be, do you ever see bench clearing brawls anymore???????????no, teams just take 10-15 penalties in those games now and you get your clutch and grab style in some games........however this is what makes games such as Warroad and Edina, or IF and Blake so intriguing........they have two completely different styles, the kids up north have always had fewer players, less GOOD skaters and less athletes alltogether so they are brought up playing "cowboy" hockey where they make up for their lack of skill by playing a rough and tumble game...........(no diss to the norhterners, this often makes better hockey players of the ones who do have skills)the cities kids play a less physical, higher speed game and when these two meet.................it is often a great game..................<br><br>(Most of us leave our skirts home when we go to play hockey any way..........................) <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

Totally disagree

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:07 pm

I totally disagree oldschool!<br><br>Clutch and grab started in the NHL, filtered to the college level then the twin cities and finally the north. The north is hurting population wise therefore the skill level is down, but they still have some wonderful individuals. The northern game was high paced with finish your check style hockey. As early as the late 70's and early 80's the IRC had more D-1 talent than any other conference in the state. Look at the Gophers and Bulldogs just 20 years ago and most of the highly skilled kids came from up north. Millen, Broten, Michelletti, Rothstein, to name a few.<br><br>This game of interference is for the birds. The teams with the most skill should be able to showcase it. Today the metro has many more skilled kids because of numbers and year round play. That's a fact of life! <p></p><i></i>

aceofspades
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:35 am

State of the Game

Post by aceofspades » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:09 pm

oldschool: I wouldn't disagree at all. Yet it seems some teams have potential to have the skills the "good" teams posses, they just don't work hard to get there. Instead they'd rather hook and hold. That is why part of the clutch and grab game is hard to watch. As for leaving the skirts at home...I'm not aware of any girls playing on the teams I have seen and never said the game shouldn't be rough. Hit or be hit is fine with me, just as long as it's clean. <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

Agreed

Post by JLS 81 » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:11 pm

jr, I agree with your assessment of todays games. By and large there is a lot of stick work going on that negates good offensive play. Oldschool cannot remember the games from the 80's and early to mid 90's I guess as they were by far more open less stick work and no stinking trap! Apple Valley- Duluth East game is as good an example as you will need to know that the games offensive rushes used to be far more exciting to watch and who can forget Moorhead with Ryan Craft and company those teams (Petey's Jags too) on breakout were darn fun to watch. As far as old school comment on northern teams and metro teams I woiuld say it is the other way around completely for the most part anyway not all teams. <p></p><i></i>

shutout
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:25 pm

state of the game

Post by shutout » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:19 pm

I would like to see the "trap" illegal in hockey. This is similiar to a zone defense in pro basketball they do not allow it because it breeds low scoring and is boring to watch. <br><br>I would personally like to see less "clutch and grab" but I wonder if they eliminated it if it would hurt kids when they went to the next level, the college coaches already think that kids are not ready coming out of high school ( Mike Lundin proved that to be false this year)<br><br>I feel that we are developing better defensive players then in the past, but are developing less and less goal scorers. I know the decrease in rink rats is probably the biggest cause of that, but it is a problem that needs to be addressed. <p></p><i></i>

fran
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: state of the game

Post by fran » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:20 pm

Hey JLS81 and jr, either one of you ever threw a body check anyway. <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

Plenty of times

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:24 pm

fran: Plenty of times! The game was meant to be fast paced with hard checking. I played before the face mask and guys actually new how to throw a shoulder or hip check. Physical fast hockey is the best. <br><br>Too many today view the clutch and grab game to be physical. It's a joke!! <p></p><i></i>

oldschool
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:31 pm

hockey

Post by oldschool » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:33 pm

If any of you think that Northern Minnesota hockey is NOT rough......................I am not even going to argue any more............anyway I don't think either one of them ever have thrown a check,.........<br>Maybe we should make the trap illegal in hockey and the forward pass illegal in football..................<br>Listen, sports have to progress and get better, maybe you guys liked scoring goals when you played, but today the game is getting more defensive, defense does win championships. I am not a fan of "cheap' hockey, but as I said, guys don't whear skirts, come on, maybe we should outlaw stick checking too when we put flags on the hips of Randy Moss and expect the NFL to go to non contact. It is a part of the game people, I never said wich style is better, I never said that a northern team who is rougher is not as good of a team, if they can play their style better than a cities team can skate, then they are better. If a team is a great team then they should be able to beat all different styles they come up against with no problems............................ <p></p><i></i>

aceofspades
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:35 am

Physical, or just lazy?

Post by aceofspades » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:35 pm

jr: I would have to agree with your recent statement 100%. The clutch and grab game is not physical, it's just plain lazy. A physical game is hard hitting, where it seems like every time a player gets the puck he is launched. It is definitely not when someone hugs another player or slows them down with his stick. <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

physical

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:42 pm

aceofspades: I see you get it.<br><br>I coached high school hockey for many years and I found many kids had forgotten how to throw a body check because the sticks were used instead.<br><br>Sadly, I had to coach the clutch and grab game as well, because otherwise my team would be at a great disadvantage.<br><br>Oldschool: Yes, things change but not always for the better. Give me a fast paced, hard hitting game over clutch and grab with the trap any day!!<br><br>Let's see: What was a better game to watch? ER vs Centennial or AHA vs. Centennial? <p></p><i></i>

oldschool
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:31 pm

clutch and grab

Post by oldschool » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:49 pm

Sorry guys, obviously I completely misunderstood, hate the "clutch and grab" or scrappy,cheap whatever you want to call it, obviously I have been reiterating everything you are saying.....................my bad..... <p></p><i></i>

fran
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: clutch and grab

Post by fran » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:40 pm

jr, maybe if you would have learned how to clutch and grab you would have played high school hockey! <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

Nice one fran

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:47 pm

Nice post fran!<br><br>I played college hockey! What's your story???? <p></p><i></i>

BIAFP
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:44 pm

clutch and grab

Post by BIAFP » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:49 pm

Fran- jr. did play and coach the game, how about you? He is right in that the skilled teams that play the game the way it supposed to have little chance with the way the neutral zone is clogged up and the illegal hooking and holding is allowed to go uncalled. The teams that skate well and move the puck like Centennial, AHA and EP are sometimes beaten by the likes of an Elk River or Edina that play the clutch and grab style are allowed to take people out of the play and off the puck outside of the rules of the game. <p></p><i></i>

AngusYoung
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:06 pm

C'mon Bader and JR

Post by AngusYoung » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:01 pm

Bader - If it is outside the rules of the game, one would think the sanctioned officials would call penalties on the infractions. So, is the real problem "the Game" or is it how the game is called. I'm not sure the rulebook has changed much, but possibly interpretation of how to call those rules. Perhaps that is what needs to be addressed. <p></p><i></i>

jr
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:25 am

Angus

Post by jr » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:12 pm

Angus: You bring up a good point. However, from the NHL down the officials don't run the sport. The powers that be will need to change their thinking of how the game should be played.<br><br>This new style of clutch, grab and trap is outside the rule book and it's not enforced because the powers that be don't want it enforced!! <p></p><i></i>

BIAFP
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:44 pm

the game

Post by BIAFP » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:13 pm

angus- the officials are rated by the coaches, that is how they get assignments and also selected for post season play. If an official was to call the game by the letter of the law, he would never work again. <p></p><i></i>

shutout
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:25 pm

Oldschool

Post by shutout » Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:12 pm

Oldschool:<br><br>To compare making the trap illegal in hockey to doing away with the forward pass is assanine. The trap teaches hockey players nothing about checking or how to play agressively. It is used by weak teams to try to cover for their lack of skill, we need to be teaching our young players how to perform agressively and force them to skate hard not sitting back trying to keep the puck in the nuetral zone the whole game. You claim that defense wins championships, i agree with you 100% so you teach them to always have a high forward when forechecking and teach them how to rotate on a forecheck and you teach them defensive zone coverage not how to sit at the red line and force the other team to take a icing. <p></p><i></i>

fran
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Oldschool

Post by fran » Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:30 pm

junior college doesnt count jr!!!!!!!!!!!! <p></p><i></i>

hockeyiscool
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:21 pm

Simple Solution

Post by hockeyiscool » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:17 pm

A simple solution to the dirty stickwork that goes on in hockey today is to take away facemasks off helmets. The abusers will then learn very quickly if you give someone a shot that you aren't supposed to you will get one right back and you won't do it again. This will eliminate the "tough guys" of high school hockey. <p></p><i></i>

oldschool
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:31 pm

shutout

Post by oldschool » Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:06 pm

shutout: VERY good points, I completely agree, and I couldn't have said it better myself.................however, I do also believe that the trap is part of the game and as I said before, a good enough team(if they are that good) should be able to beat it. if the team is using the trap and they win, it doesn' t teach lazeyness, but shows that they have learned their coaches game, and know how to play it better than the team who puts a wing high out of the defensive zone...................I believe that the "suckhole" is the major reason why the trap comes about..............just because the team plays more defensive, doesn't mean jack. To me the trap almost teaches the game better, by giving the players a different angle of the game, do you disagree that the players have to be in position when playing the trap??????? For the most part though, you are right, I do agree, just have a different view on the trap than you. If everyone plays the same game of hockey, it would be boring and worthless, this is what makes hockey interesting. <p></p><i></i>

puckhead63
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:30 pm

Re: Oldschool

Post by puckhead63 » Thu Jan 01, 2004 4:06 pm

As I read the comments from this post, many of you are right on. <br><br>I do see more clutch and grab, slashing, hooking, elbows and higher sticks than ever before. <br><br>I personally think that when we added masks back in the 70's the sticks and elbows came up and the game changes forever. I played highschool with face masks, played Junior A without masks, then back to college with masks and in the minors without masks - every time we took the masks off, the sticks and elbows came down.<br><br>If you look at it, the further north you go, the more physical the game gets - when you get to Canada, it is a different game up there.<br><br>My son played up there and the ref's would tell the players that slashing is legal as long as it is below the waist, charging is not going to be called unless the player leaves hit feet to make the hit, etc... <br><br>An old USA Hockey coach of mine told me that slower you get you, the more the stick work and clutch & grab plays a bigger part of the game. I personally think that I think if you were to see more hockey on the olympic size rinks, you would see more passing and skating. I also think that the smaller player could have a chance to play. Now, if your not in the 6 foot range, your going to struggle, unless you are like the Giles, Millen's of the world.<br><br>You are correct, the High School coaches have a lot to do with the style of the officials and what they are letting go. It is a known fact that the officials don't like to cross Giles at Edina - they have a tendency's to let more go - that is true with other coaches as well.<br><br>I love to see a great hit. I'll keep the HS name out of this, but one team a couple years ago kept track of how many players they could put of of the game from a check (the coach didn't condone this). I think we forget what checking is meant to do - it is meant to separate the puck from the player, you don't have to kill him!<br><br>I could go on forever, but I won't - thanks for letting me sound off a little. <p></p><i></i>

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