MN Hockey winter meeting

[elliott70]

January 22-24 Minnesota Hockey meeting.
In the cities if interest I will post the location and agenda.
If you have something that you would like the district directors to discuss let me know and I will put it on their committee meeting agenda.
Three man ref system ahs been added already.

[zambonidriver]

Bring body contact in at all levels squirt and above
1 and 1/2 hour games for all bantam levels and u-15.

[elliott70]

Bring body contact in at all levels squirt and above
1 and 1/2 hour games for all bantam levels and u-15.

will add it to the agenda

[1excg]

+1 to added items

Thanks Elliot!

[dlow]

Non-binding suggested team placement per number of kids in an age grouping at each association. aa, a, b1, b2, c = wow thats a lot of levels and really hard to place teams competitively. Lots of blowouts at peewees this year I've seen. Not fun, not good for development.

Associations that have tried to do it the "right" way (eg 5 pw teams one placed at each lettering spot) are struggling.

[blueblood]

In alignment with the ADM, a strict number of games and tournaments that can be entered, not including path to MN State championships, should be applied at all levels, not just squirts/U10.

-bb

[moosepaw]

Where do we start.....


Find a study to back up or not back up checking in bantam.
Have associations based on number of kids in there associations take top 64 or whatever be double AA. The rest A, if AA want to have A as well there call very few have the talent to do this.

Minnedota Hockey says 35 game days, but sends out letters bullying associations that played a high number of games but played within the rules.
Saying that can do this????


Checking clinics having 4 across the state is a insult, doesn't cover even close Some of the guys teaching the clinics have no idea about hockey little alone checking or even have played the game.

Start a checking skill work on it for the week and then have the only way you can check is the skill was learned that week and move on to the next week.

Checking in bantams at practice are practiced hardly at all, coaches little experience in coaching much less drills for checking.


Kids transferring.... Nothing Minnesota hockey can do. They know it.


The more restrictions, the more limitations you put on the customer the more they will look for options.


How have we fared on the number of kids on World Junior teams......... Listen..... crickets.

[elliott70]

Okay, I will try to summarize all this and request it on the agenda.

If you want to offer something or clarify your post, please feel free to email me

elliottm@paulbunyan.net

Two l's two t's

[Jeffy95]

Change the Participation Rule back to play where you live. If someone wants to play somewhere else, they can move there so they still have that option. Hurts no one, helps a lot of kids to continue to play Hockey.

If they don't, we will see a lot of Associations fold. That means less kids playing Hockey, less influence and less resources for USA/MN Hockey.

[nahc]

Elliott:

Paulbunyon.net........... really?

[elliott70]

Elliott:

Paulbunyon.net........... really?

actually it is bunyAn.

But yes, the company that offers telephone, internet, TV is Paul Bunyan Communications (a co-op) that has been around for 63 years.

[zambonidriver]

Change the Participation Rule back to play where you live. If someone wants to play somewhere else, they can move there so they still have that option. Hurts no one, helps a lot of kids to continue to play Hockey. Ancient, outdated, not practical, Allow tier 1 across the board and private clubs like everyone else in the United States. Then you have two level access which actually will allow for more kids to access the games and allow associations to be able to self police a little better.

If they don't, we will see a lot of Associations fold. That means less kids playing Hockey, less influence and less resources for USA/MN Hockey.

[SCBlueLiner]

Why would Minnesota change it's association based model to a Tier 1 and club model? From everything I see the association model works much better. Higher participation. Highly developed players. Is your goal to bring Minnesota hockey down to the level of the rest of the country? Escalate costs like the rest of the country?

Frankly, the rest of the U.S. where there are highly concentrated areas of youth hockey, Michigan, Chicago area, Pennsylvania, New England, etc, should have the association model forced on them by USA Hockey. It would go a long way to solve a lot of the problems they have in those other areas.

[elliott70]

Minnesota Hockey, Inc. Board Meeting
January 22-24, 2016
Marriott Minneapolis West
9960 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, MN

Friday, January 22, 2016
7:00 – 7:30 PM Association Leader Conference Ricke
7:30 – 8:00 PM Finance & Budget Kephart
8:00 – 10:00 PM Executive Committee Margenau

Saturday, January 23, 2016
8:00 – 9:00 AM Hockey Operations Evavold
9:00 – 9:15 AM Break
9:15 – 10:00 AM Tier 1 Committee Coole
10:00 – 12:15 PM District Directors Oleheiser
12:15 – 1:00 PM Lunch
1:00 – 1:45 PM Rules Halverson
1:45 – 2:15 PM Tournament/Awards Nyhus
2:15 – 2:30 PM Break
2:30 – 3:00 PM Membership Development Wright
3:00 – 3:30 PM Marketing Communications Gray
3:30 – 4:30 PM New Programs Development Slaird

Sunday, January 24, 2016
Board Meeting Agenda
8:00 AM Call to Order
Roll Call
Moment of Silence – Bob O’Connor and Marge McDonald
Minutes From Previous Meetings
Agenda Additions/Changes
Treasurer’s Report
President’s Report
Executive Director’s Report

Committee Reports:
Administrative Mgmt Adult Adult Women Business Development
Disabled District Directors Diversity Executive Comm.
Finance/Budget Girls League Grievance High School Boys
High School Girls Hockey Ops Handbook Junior Gold
Juniors MIAMA Marketing/Communication Membership Development
Nominating Recreational Hockey Referees Regional Coordinators
Rules Safety Scholarships SafeSport/Screening
Tournaments/Awards

USA Hockey Reports:
Margenau Green Oleheiser Gray
Ytuarte Kruger Foster Tatro
Gillen Koelling Lonke

Old Business:
New Business:
Proposed Bylaw and Youth Rule Changes Halverson

[JSR]

Why would Minnesota change it's association based model to a Tier 1 and club model? From everything I see the association model works much better. Higher participation. Highly developed players. Is your goal to bring Minnesota hockey down to the level of the rest of the country? Escalate costs like the rest of the country?

Frankly, the rest of the U.S. where there are highly concentrated areas of youth hockey, Michigan, Chicago area, Pennsylvania, New England, etc, should have the association model forced on them by USA Hockey. It would go a long way to solve a lot of the problems they have in those other areas.

Where is that being proposed and by whom? I don't see that anywhere?

[SCBlueLiner]

Change the Participation Rule back to play where you live. If someone wants to play somewhere else, they can move there so they still have that option. Hurts no one, helps a lot of kids to continue to play Hockey. Ancient, outdated, not practical, Allow tier 1 across the board and private clubs like everyone else in the United States. Then you have two level access which actually will allow for more kids to access the games and allow associations to be able to self police a little better.

If they don't, we will see a lot of Associations fold. That means less kids playing Hockey, less influence and less resources for USA/MN Hockey.

Zambonidriver proposed it in his post.

[jg2112]

Minnesota Hockey, Inc. Board Meeting
January 22-24, 2016
Marriott Minneapolis West
9960 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, MN

Friday, January 22, 2016
7:00 – 7:30 PM Association Leader Conference Ricke
7:30 – 8:00 PM Finance & Budget Kephart
8:00 – 10:00 PM Executive Committee Margenau

Saturday, January 23, 2016
8:00 – 9:00 AM Hockey Operations Evavold
9:00 – 9:15 AM Break
9:15 – 10:00 AM Tier 1 Committee Coole
10:00 – 12:15 PM District Directors Oleheiser
12:15 – 1:00 PM Lunch
1:00 – 1:45 PM Rules Halverson
1:45 – 2:15 PM Tournament/Awards Nyhus
2:15 – 2:30 PM Break
2:30 – 3:00 PM Membership Development Wright
3:00 – 3:30 PM Marketing Communications Gray
3:30 – 4:30 PM New Programs Development Slaird

Sunday, January 24, 2016
Board Meeting Agenda
8:00 AM Call to Order
Roll Call
Moment of Silence – Bob O’Connor and Marge McDonald
Minutes From Previous Meetings
Agenda Additions/Changes
Treasurer’s Report
President’s Report
Executive Director’s Report

Committee Reports:
Administrative Mgmt Adult Adult Women Business Development
Disabled District Directors Diversity Executive Comm.
Finance/Budget Girls League Grievance High School Boys
High School Girls Hockey Ops Handbook Junior Gold
Juniors MIAMA Marketing/Communication Membership Development
Nominating Recreational Hockey Referees Regional Coordinators
Rules Safety Scholarships SafeSport/Screening
Tournaments/Awards

USA Hockey Reports:
Margenau Green Oleheiser Gray
Ytuarte Kruger Foster Tatro
Gillen Koelling Lonke

Old Business:
New Business:
Proposed Bylaw and Youth Rule Changes Halverson

What are the proposed youth rule changes? Any idea?

[zambonidriver]

Why would Minnesota change it's association based model to a Tier 1 and club model? From everything I see the association model works much better. Higher participation. Highly developed players. Is your goal to bring Minnesota hockey down to the level of the rest of the country? Escalate costs like the rest of the country?

Frankly, the rest of the U.S. where there are highly concentrated areas of youth hockey, Michigan, Chicago area, Pennsylvania, New England, etc, should have the association model forced on them by USA Hockey. It would go a long way to solve a lot of the problems they have in those other areas.

Hear me out.
1. Association hockey is highly political and subject to corruption. I hear it all the time my kid got jobbed I have even acted on it myself. Add tier 1 and triple A option with tryouts in the spring say April by private clubs under the direction of Minnesota hockey then you don't have to worry about the waiver rule and you truly have the best playing the best. Best part the politics for the most part goes away as the clubs are going pick the best players so they can win.
2. Because of #1 Associatons can then concentrate on what they do best which is develop kids and the cost actually will probably go down because the arms race will go away and the need to keep up with the town next door won't be as important.
3. Associations will be able to set their policies and enforce them because with the tier 1 system the boards can tell them you have an option and don't have to play here.
4. You can still choose to play for your local association but by their rules. The more options the better the product. Association hockey be comes more recreational therefore less need for indoor ice therefore less demand for indoor ice. therefore ice time becomes less expensive and association hockey becomes less about winning and losing and more about kids playing.
Roast me now

[SCBlueLiner]

Now I understand your line of reasoning but I don't agree with it. Every organization, whether it is an association or a Tier 1 Club, is subject to politics and corruption.

I'm on the board of my local association and, you might be surprised to hear this, we have more issues with the B and lower players than we do with the top players. In fact, I hardly hear a peep out of parents of top players. It's always the players the next level down that are politicizing things and doing anything they can to get their kid moved higher up the ladder. You know why? Because they realize the kid can't do it on his own and needs parent assistance. The top player's parents don't worry or cause issues, their player's game speaks for itself.

Even if you remove those top players from the association there will still be a pecking order at the remaining association level. The politics and corruption will continue.

Your system invites a whole new level of corruption. You'll have what happens at Tier 1 clubs across the country right now. There will be recruitment and enticement of top players with reduced or free costs. The remainder of the roster paying the way of the top players yet not seeing the ice. Checkbook players. A play to win attitude instead of a play to develop attitude will be dominant because the survival of the Tier 1 club is largely based on wins and loses. You can argue that survival will be based on development and moving kids on, but how many consistent loser Tier 1 clubs keep their doors open for long? What clubs do the best players gravitate towards? They head towards the winning clubs, which means talent gets consolidated, which means scouts go to where the talent is, which makes the losing clubs trapped in a downward spiral. Can't win because they don't have the talent, can't attract the talent because they don't win.

[Wet Paint]

Now I understand your line of reasoning but I don't agree with it. Every organization, whether it is an association or a Tier 1 Club, is subject to politics and corruption.

I'm on the board of my local association and, you might be surprised to hear this, we have more issues with the B and lower players than we do with the top players. In fact, I hardly hear a peep out of parents of top players. It's always the players the next level down that are politicizing things and doing anything they can to get their kid moved higher up the ladder. You know why? Because they realize the kid can't do it on his own and needs parent assistance. The top player's parents don't worry or cause issues, their player's game speaks for itself.

Even if you remove those top players from the association there will still be a pecking order at the remaining association level. The politics and corruption will continue.

Your system invites a whole new level of corruption. You'll have what happens at Tier 1 clubs across the country right now. There will be recruitment and enticement of top players with reduced or free costs. The remainder of the roster paying the way of the top players yet not seeing the ice. Checkbook players. A play to win attitude instead of a play to develop attitude will be dominant because the survival of the Tier 1 club is largely based on wins and loses. You can argue that survival will be based on development and moving kids on, but how many consistent loser Tier 1 clubs keep their doors open for long? What clubs do the best players gravitate towards? They head towards the winning clubs, which means talent gets consolidated, which means scouts go to where the talent is, which makes the losing clubs trapped in a downward spiral. Can't win because they don't have the talent, can't attract the talent because they don't win.

I was going to stay out of this but have decided to hop in. Dumb I know.

For starters Association hockey is very corrupt in many places. The worst part about it is that along with the corruption comes basically a hostage situation. You either play or us or you sit out a year and then go to another association. Tier 1 or AAA would fix that because if Team 1 started to get too stupid people would not go there with their kids and their checkbooks. A Tier 1 team that is dependent on attracting kids to play there is going to have to be straight shooting enough to entice parents to take a kid there in the first place. If I know that Team 1 is corrupt and that kids are going to pay and not play I am not taking a kid there. Most parents would agree I think. With the internet and how much these kids interact the pay but don't play and etc stuff would become known very quickly and that team would be in trouble. Free agency is a good thing because if I own Team 2 I am going to do my best to train your kid and to promote your kid so that I can brag about that and attract kids to follow him. In association hockey as long as my kid is taken care of I have no reason to worry about you or your kid since you can't leave anyhow. With association hockey you are stuck with what the board and the association gives you.

I am sure you hear more from the B players than the upper players. If my kid is on an upper team (whether he got there because he is a great player who was not competing against a kid who has the right name or just because he was a great player) or if my name was enough to get him there I am not going to complain. My kid (the upper level one) is getting professional coaching and your B kid is not since his coach is going to be which ever father we can get to coach, so my kid is going to get better faster. My kid is going to be that kid that always makes the upper team because he always has so will next time too. Your B kid is not going to get the coaching or the exposure to knock off my A kid so I am good. Don't really care about you or your kid since you can't catch my kid anyhow. If per chance during tryouts a kid does come along who might unseat my kid I am going to make sure that my kid makes the team even if I have to make a couple of calls to the board member who is advising that team selection group to remind him or her. Tier 1 hockey which has an intense drive to field the best team it can in order to survive and attract the best players would get rid of all of that crap. You can recruit or entice all you want as I want to win too but when you get stupid about it I am gone along with my kid and my check book.

The way to fix it is to remove the association model entirely and to promote more of a community based club approach in which our club has the opportunity to attract kids to it. If I am in (pick a town here I don't care which one it is) and I want to attract good kids to play there what do I do? Get a political board together who wants to protect their own kids? No. Get a coaching staff together that is good at training kids and helping kids advance to the next level and then brag about that in an effort to attract kids to my club? Yes. The proof of this is right in your association. Go to your A team coach for next year (he is already hired) and ask him who is gong to make the A team next year. He will rattle off the names of this year's A kids along with A level players from the lower level who are moving up next year. Those are going to be the bulk of his team. Ask him about B players. He won't have seen any of them, won't know them and etc. Your B kid is trapped in the B area because my A kid is known to that coach who has lots and lots of input on who gets picked for that team. Meanwhile, look at your B team. You are going to pick the coaches for it after the tryout process is complete and you know who is on that team.

[elliott70]

What are the proposed youth rule changes? Any idea?

Not sure that I have received an email on those yet.
If I have I will post it here.
If I do not get it I will post it once I get to the meeting.
A lot of times the changes are for clarification of items and not necessary for rule changes. Not sure what might be on this one.

[elliott70]

Why would Minnesota change it's association based model to a Tier 1 and club model? From everything I see the association model works much better. Higher participation. Highly developed players. Is your goal to bring Minnesota hockey down to the level of the rest of the country? Escalate costs like the rest of the country?

Frankly, the rest of the U.S. where there are highly concentrated areas of youth hockey, Michigan, Chicago area, Pennsylvania, New England, etc, should have the association model forced on them by USA Hockey. It would go a long way to solve a lot of the problems they have in those other areas.

Hear me out.
1. Association hockey is highly political and subject to corruption. I hear it all the time my kid got jobbed I have even acted on it myself. Add tier 1 and triple A option with tryouts in the spring say April by private clubs under the direction of Minnesota hockey then you don't have to worry about the waiver rule and you truly have the best playing the best. Best part the politics for the most part goes away as the clubs are going pick the best players so they can win.
2. Because of #1 Associatons can then concentrate on what they do best which is develop kids and the cost actually will probably go down because the arms race will go away and the need to keep up with the town next door won't be as important.
3. Associations will be able to set their policies and enforce them because with the tier 1 system the boards can tell them you have an option and don't have to play here.
4. You can still choose to play for your local association but by their rules. The more options the better the product. Association hockey be comes more recreational therefore less need for indoor ice therefore less demand for indoor ice. therefore ice time becomes less expensive and association hockey becomes less about winning and losing and more about kids playing.
Roast me now

A district by district program has been enacted to be run by MH. It will run in spring/fall, starting this spring.

[elliott70]

I am not so naïve that I do not think there are kids making teams based on some 'political' move. And I am not so dumb that I know that the top players are making the A (AA) team. So the best of the B and the worst of the A can be exchanged. This ahs been true for all times and for all associations.

Is it crooked association board members or just some people's perception of it?

Having a AAA for profit organization will not change that AND could make it worse when a check can be written without some oversight from outside.

I know I am a little naive coming from a small town and small district, but I do know that I do not put up with anything and do look into ALL claims of shenanigans.

If any one here thinks there is corruption they should report it and report it again until it does get looked at (not until you get what you want).

[Wet Paint]

Why would Minnesota change it's association based model to a Tier 1 and club model? From everything I see the association model works much better. Higher participation. Highly developed players. Is your goal to bring Minnesota hockey down to the level of the rest of the country? Escalate costs like the rest of the country?

Frankly, the rest of the U.S. where there are highly concentrated areas of youth hockey, Michigan, Chicago area, Pennsylvania, New England, etc, should have the association model forced on them by USA Hockey. It would go a long way to solve a lot of the problems they have in those other areas.

Hear me out.
1. Association hockey is highly political and subject to corruption. I hear it all the time my kid got jobbed I have even acted on it myself. Add tier 1 and triple A option with tryouts in the spring say April by private clubs under the direction of Minnesota hockey then you don't have to worry about the waiver rule and you truly have the best playing the best. Best part the politics for the most part goes away as the clubs are going pick the best players so they can win.
2. Because of #1 Associatons can then concentrate on what they do best which is develop kids and the cost actually will probably go down because the arms race will go away and the need to keep up with the town next door won't be as important.
3. Associations will be able to set their policies and enforce them because with the tier 1 system the boards can tell them you have an option and don't have to play here.
4. You can still choose to play for your local association but by their rules. The more options the better the product. Association hockey be comes more recreational therefore less need for indoor ice therefore less demand for indoor ice. therefore ice time becomes less expensive and association hockey becomes less about winning and losing and more about kids playing.
Roast me now

A district by district program has been enacted to be run by MH. It will run in spring/fall, starting this spring.

Great, the kids who have the name because they are already on an upper level team will be afforded the chance to play more hockey while those B kids are locked out. These teams will be selected by the coaches and the boards and other similar people who are already used to taking care of each other and their kid so it won't be a problem. I have seen stuff like this with the HP teams and the elite league. Actually had a person who was on the selection committee for one of the HP district teams tell me that he already knew who was going to make the team and that from what he knew they were looking for a couple of fill in players with this "open tryout" that they were having. he told me that prior to the kids hitting the ice for the first time during the open tryout.

What MN Hockey does not understand is that the peasants are sick of trying to play into a stacked deck. These district teams are nothing more than more opportunities for the already known kids to play more hockey at the expense of the B kids. The B kids who want to play hockey and who want to have a chance to move up as they get better are the ones who are feeling like they are frozen out and will be the group who goes to the AAU model or whoever comes to town and offers them a chance to have a chance.

[elliott70]

Great, the kids who have the name because they are already on an upper level team will be afforded the chance to play more hockey while those B kids are locked out. These teams will be selected by the coaches and the boards and other similar people who are already used to taking care of each other and their kid so it won't be a problem. I have seen stuff like this with the HP teams and the elite league. Actually had a person who was on the selection committee for one of the HP district teams tell me that he already knew who was going to make the team and that from what he knew they were looking for a couple of fill in players with this "open tryout" that they were having. he told me that prior to the kids hitting the ice for the first time during the open tryout.

What MN Hockey does not understand is that the peasants are sick of trying to play into a stacked deck. These district teams are nothing more than more opportunities for the already known kids to play more hockey at the expense of the B kids. The B kids who want to play hockey and who want to have a chance to move up as they get better are the ones who are feeling like they are frozen out and will be the group who goes to the AAU model or whoever comes to town and offers them a chance to have a chance.

Like I said, I am from a small area but I guarantee we give all players a shot at HP.
The new program has a lot of questions to answer (that I asked) to assure all get the opportunity to participate if they desire.
It does exclude kids and hopefully there will be someway at some point to bring those into a similar setting.
But this is the first step to give more because people have asked for it.

It is not a perfect world and will not be.
The most anyone can do is give their best effort to make things better and look at improprieties (real or perceived) and act on them.

But to give anonymous complaints about an evaluator claiming a problem with a program months or years after such problem does not make it easy to fix.

If you know of problem tell someone and if you're not sure who to tell or trust then call me.
218-766-4433
email
elliottm@paulbunyan.net
I will keep your name out of it to the extent possible.

Saying on a chat board we need to change the system to something that most believe will be worse is not the answer.
Let me help make this one better, but I cannot go chasing about because some one on a chat board believes that someone somewhere is being corrupt.