Nick Swaney

[observer]

The list of players that go directly from HS to D1 is relatively short. Did Swaney just graduate this past spring? A lot of players spend a year in Juniors after HS. Some play Juniors during their Sr. year in HS. Fewer from MN as HS hockey can be decent. Remember, Pitlick was going back to Juniors until late. Was he a HS senior last year and now to the Gophs directly from HS? Some freshmen are 18 and some are 21 so obviously a numbers juggling act for coaches based on who leaves from schools that lose their players before their senior year.

[GoldenBear]

Swaney graduated from Waterloo High last Spring. Pitlick played one year of juniors after his high school graduation. It's a tricky proposition, anyone trying to say what is right and what is wrong for a player unless they are the parents is overstepping their boundaries as each kid has 20 different things that play into the decision that only the parents and kids know of. GB

[GoldenBear]

I know the subject is about college coaches having the hammer and deciding, however it's still up to the kid. Swaney I'm sure could have gone to UMD-- may not have played on top two lines and special teams early on. I'm pretty sure the coaches have this conversation with the kids and then it's up to kids and parents. Look at Noterman, he probably could have used a year or two of juniors but that isn't what he or parents probably wanted so he enrolled and is being red shirted. Another option. GB

[WarmUpTheBus]

I know the subject is about college coaches having the hammer and deciding, however it's still up to the kid. Swaney I'm sure could have gone to UMD-- may not have played on top two lines and special teams early on. I'm pretty sure the coaches have this conversation with the kids and then it's up to kids and parents. Look at Noterman, he probably could have used a year or two of juniors but that isn't what he or parents probably wanted so he enrolled and is being red shirted. Another option. GB

Is Noterman a walk-on?

[stromboli]

I know the subject is about college coaches having the hammer and deciding, however it's still up to the kid. Swaney I'm sure could have gone to UMD-- may not have played on top two lines and special teams early on. I'm pretty sure the coaches have this conversation with the kids and then it's up to kids and parents. Look at Noterman, he probably could have used a year or two of juniors but that isn't what he or parents probably wanted so he enrolled and is being red shirted. Another option. GB

Is Noterman a walk-on?

Not a walk-on. Was offered a scholarship his senior year when he was paired with Tufte and performed well.

[mulefarm]

Is he on scholarship this year? Not sure why he won't have played juniors and take a few general classes? Don't see how this helps UMD?

[InYourFace09]

Is he on scholarship this year? Not sure why he won't have played juniors and take a few general classes? Don't see how this helps UMD?

He is not on scholarship if he is not in school, so with him still at Jr's. Assuming you are talking about Swaney and not Noterman, as he is at the U of M.

Scholarships dont start until the student steps on campus.

[mulefarm]

Sorry, I was talking about Noterman.

[InYourFace09]

Sorry, I was talking about Noterman.

Minnesota must have had his scholarship % open, or he was a preferred walk on. They always have extra players sit out games, injuries happen and then someone steps into lineup.

It appears Noterman wanted to get right into college and not go the junior route and Minnesota had that spot open for him.

[elliott70]

ttt

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

Yeah, the entire junior hockey scene is a strange one anyway.

Football and basketball don't require kids play a year or two (or three) somewhere before coming to school xyz.

Some say it gives the kids a chance to mature, etc.

B.s. Grasping at straws for justification. As said, hockey is the only sport that requires it. I guess maturity, etc. isn't a concern with football and basketball players, eh ?

I've been told that juniors came about in response to UND years ago taking twenty year old canuck kids who had aged out of their juniors programs, and everyone else had to play catch up hence juniors in the US came about.

No idea if so, but sounds plausible enough. Had to start somehow.

And of course, like everything else you can bet money comes into the equation too.

[MNHockeyFan]

I've been told that juniors came about in response to UND years ago taking twenty year old canuck kids who had aged out of their juniors programs, and everyone else had to play catch up hence juniors in the US came about.

No idea if so, but sounds plausible enough. Had to start somehow.

In its early years juniors was almost entirely for kids who were not talented enough to get a scholarship right out of high school.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

I've been told that juniors came about in response to UND years ago taking twenty year old canuck kids who had aged out of their juniors programs, and everyone else had to play catch up hence juniors in the US came about.

No idea if so, but sounds plausible enough. Had to start somehow.

In its early years juniors was almost entirely for kids who were not talented enough to get a scholarship right out of high school.

But at the time it being the norm, the rosters were filled with kids right out of high school, no ?

So what room was left ?

[MNHockeyFan]

But at the time it being the norm, the rosters were filled with kids right out of high school, no ?

So what room was left ?

Yes, most slots were filled with players right out of high school - or Canadian juniors. In its very early years the USHL didn't produce many D1 players, but there were some that improved enough to make it. And as time went on that number grew.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

But at the time it being the norm, the rosters were filled with kids right out of high school, no ?

So what room was left ?

Yes, most slots were filled with players right out of high school - or Canadian juniors. In its very early years the USHL didn't produce many D1 players, but there were some that improved enough to make it. And as time went on that number grew.

Yeah, I remember the days when d1 rosters were kids out of high school.

Recently as the eighties.

I also do remember more and more schools grabbing twenty year old Canadian kids, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is what kick started the US junior/college scene that is the norm today.

But I don't recall the exact timing.

Guess it's good that football and basketball isn't as popular in Canada.

[mulefarm]

I doubt football and basketball could produce enough revenue to have leagues after high school. Also football started the red shirting of players to give them the extra year of maturity. In the 60's freshman were not eligible for varsity athletics, lots of things have changed.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

I doubt football and basketball could produce enough revenue to have leagues after high school. Also football started the red shirting of players to give them the extra year of maturity. In the 60's freshman were not eligible for varsity athletics, lots of things have changed.

Oh, I don't know about that. Football and basketball are much more popular than hockey across the country.

But (fortunately) schools haven't gone the hockey route with those sports.

Yet.

[karl(east)]

Veering off topic here, but I think the two biggest reasons juniors exist in hockey but not in other sports is due to how the development of players is regulated (or not regulated) by the powers that be in each sport.

Both the NFL and NBA are dominated by Americans and run by Americans. Because of that, there has, historically, been one path to the pros, with the NCAA and the major leagues working in concert to develop players and shuttle them along. There have been some cracks in that wall over the past 15-20 years as it's more possible to leave school early (or even not go at all in the NBA), but everyone still pretty much follows the same structure.

In hockey, the NCAA has had to grow up alongside Canadian major juniors and whatever it is that the Europeans do, and has never enjoyed a monopoly on development. It's also not a major revenue generator for the NCAA, so it probably hasn't made as much of an effort as it could to shut out competition (though it certainly does try, as with the rules barring anyone who plays MJ from playing NCAA). That creates a bit of a wild west where there are a lot of different paths, and this creates opportunities for new leagues to spring up and help create those paths.

I suspect that, if you were to drop a USHL-style basketball league into existence tomorrow, it would do very well, and fill the same role: college coaches would use it as a grooming ground for talent and take older, more experienced kids. (Though basketball may not be the greatest analogy since it's a lot easier for one really good, young player to dominate.) But no one wants to invest in the start-up costs to do this, because there is already one very well-known path, and not enough people are actively seeking an alternative. Whereas if you were a hockey player in the 80s or 90s or even earlier, the NCAA was not the be-all, end-all, and that created room for another market to flourish. And now that it's in place, it continues to grow, because there's money to be made there.

[mulefarm]

If there was money to be made, there would be leagues without question! The junior hockey league survives in non traditional hockey areas. Numerous teams have tried Mn and cannot make it. BB and footballl would have the same fate.

[Miracleon82ndstreet]

May be a little beyond the high school category....

Anyone besides me surprised Sandelin has Swaney spending a 2nd year in USHL instead of up in a UMD uniform this year?

Lots of UMD players came back from last years roster, no room for Swaney. Great player!

I agree with defensive zone. From a good source, Nick would of been playing 3rd, probably 4th line. Next year he should be 1st or 2nd line. Good player who will make an impact next year for the Bulldogs.

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

If there was money to be made, there would be leagues without question! The junior hockey league survives in non traditional hockey areas. Numerous teams have tried Mn and cannot make it. BB and footballl would have the same fate.

<shrug> Have to agree to disagree.

The only reason leagues for those sports don't exist is only because there is no demand for them from schools across the nation, etc.

If there was, they'd exist.

And make money.

Because there was a need they were filling.

[WarmUpTheBus]

But at the time it being the norm, the rosters were filled with kids right out of high school, no ?

So what room was left ?

Yes, most slots were filled with players right out of high school - or Canadian juniors. In its very early years the USHL didn't produce many D1 players, but there were some that improved enough to make it. And as time went on that number grew.

Yeah, I remember the days when d1 rosters were kids out of high school.

Recently as the eighties.

I also do remember more and more schools grabbing twenty year old Canadian kids, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is what kick started the US junior/college scene that is the norm today.

But I don't recall the exact timing.

Guess it's good that football and basketball isn't as popular in Canada.

Herb Brooks had 15 former St Paul Vulcans on his 3 NCAA Championship teams in 1974, 1976 and 1979 .

[zamboniexhaustinhaler]

Veering off topic here, but I think the two biggest reasons juniors exist in hockey but not in other sports is due to how the development of players is regulated (or not regulated) by the powers that be in each sport.

Both the NFL and NBA are dominated by Americans and run by Americans. Because of that, there has, historically, been one path to the pros, with the NCAA and the major leagues working in concert to develop players and shuttle them along. There have been some cracks in that wall over the past 15-20 years as it's more possible to leave school early (or even not go at all in the NBA), but everyone still pretty much follows the same structure.

In hockey, the NCAA has had to grow up alongside Canadian major juniors and whatever it is that the Europeans do, and has never enjoyed a monopoly on development. It's also not a major revenue generator for the NCAA, so it probably hasn't made as much of an effort as it could to shut out competition (though it certainly does try, as with the rules barring anyone who plays MJ from playing NCAA). That creates a bit of a wild west where there are a lot of different paths, and this creates opportunities for new leagues to spring up and help create those paths.

I suspect that, if you were to drop a USHL-style basketball league into existence tomorrow, it would do very well, and fill the same role: college coaches would use it as a grooming ground for talent and take older, more experienced kids. (Though basketball may not be the greatest analogy since it's a lot easier for one really good, young player to dominate.) But no one wants to invest in the start-up costs to do this, because there is already one very well-known path, and not enough people are actively seeking an alternative. Whereas if you were a hockey player in the 80s or 90s or even earlier, the NCAA was not the be-all, end-all, and that created room for another market to flourish. And now that it's in place, it continues to grow, because there's money to be made there.

Good points here.

[mulefarm]

If there was money to be made, there would be leagues without question! The junior hockey league survives in non traditional hockey areas. Numerous teams have tried Mn and cannot make it. BB and footballl would have the same fate.

<shrug> Have to agree to disagree.

The only reason leagues for those sports don't exist is only because there is no demand for them from schools across the nation, etc.

If there was, they'd exist.

And make money.

Because there was a need they were filling.

The junior leagues didn't start because colleges felt the need. Harry Brown, Bob Sommers, Ron Woody and Red Karis wanted to give more kids and opportunity to extend there hockey career. Once it got started the colleges took notice and many of these players went on to college and pro careers. It started at the Golden Valley ice center and Stephens Buick was the sponsor. Then a junior league started and eventually evolved into the USHL.

[MNHockeyFan]

The junior leagues didn't start because colleges felt the need. Harry Brown, Bob Sommers, Ron Woody and Red Karis wanted to give more kids and opportunity to extend there hockey career. Once it got started the colleges took notice and many of these players went on to college and pro careers. It started at the Golden Valley ice center and Stephens Buick was the sponsor. Then a junior league started and eventually evolved into the USHL.

Stephens Buick was the sponsor of one team in the initial "Junior Olympic Development League" which was summer only.