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Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show
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Mnnstar



Joined: 27 Jun 2016
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show Reply with quote

http://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show/868726?referrer_id=3719763
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Lace'emUp



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

Mnnstar wrote:
http://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show/868726?referrer_id=3719763


Unfortunately, this type of story is becoming more of the norm. Parents vs Coaches. Take away details of what happened or why it happened, it was parents directly confronting high school coaches in a negative fashion. The parents needed to bring this to the attention of the head coach FIRST. If it cannot be resolved through the head coach, then you go to the athletic director. These parents should be given a suspension for undermining the head coach and the school for taking matters into their own hands.

By the way, I noticed that Kevin wrote "It is go-time for the WBL girls as the team has become more senior- and junior-dominated. And the girls have responded, having won 10 in a row as I write this." 10 in a row is no more. CDH seemed to wax them pretty good last night. In my opinion, this Parents vs Coach incident has greatly affected their team chemistry in the short term, and the results show that. WBL should've been doing the waxing on their home rink, and 8 out of 10 on the Week 6 Pick'em contest thought the same. Question now is how long will the chemistry be broken? Go-time may have to wait until next year.
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meridian90



Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:45 am    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

Lace'emUp wrote:
Mnnstar wrote:
http://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show/868726?referrer_id=3719763


Unfortunately, this type of story is becoming more of the norm. Parents vs Coaches. Take away details of what happened or why it happened, it was parents directly confronting high school coaches in a negative fashion. The parents needed to bring this to the attention of the head coach FIRST. If it cannot be resolved through the head coach, then you go to the athletic director. These parents should be given a suspension for undermining the head coach and the school for taking matters into their own hands.

By the way, I noticed that Kevin wrote "It is go-time for the WBL girls as the team has become more senior- and junior-dominated. And the girls have responded, having won 10 in a row as I write this." 10 in a row is no more. CDH seemed to wax them pretty good last night. In my opinion, this Parents vs Coach incident has greatly affected their team chemistry in the short term, and the results show that. WBL should've been doing the waxing on their home rink, and 8 out of 10 on the Week 6 Pick'em contest thought the same. Question now is how long will the chemistry be broken? Go-time may have to wait until next year.


Make no mistake, there is a subset of the current teams parents that have stopped at almost nothing to subvert, discredit and otherwise besmirch the reputation of the coaching staff for WBL, which all has an extremely positive reputation both within the hockey community as well as the white bear community.

This has been going on since this current group first joined the varsity team. This includes countless emails and text messages during and after games about all the things they claim the coaches are doing wrong. The motivation, it seems, is to try and push good coaches, like hartzell to give up, in the hopes that one of them can take the reigns (they have offered to "help" coach the team on several occasions).

Keep in mind in the backdrop of all this, is this same crew of parents exiting stage right between periods to go out and take shots and drink between periods at their cars to the point where they probably shouldn't drive those cars home. I truly hope the girls on the team read this article are embarrassed by their parents actions, I know I would be.

I just hope the rest of the coaching staff can keep the girls focused in a year that looks headed off the rails.

This isn't all the parents, but it isn't hard to see which ones it is.
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woody



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

meridian90 wrote:


Make no mistake, there is a subset of the current teams parents that have stopped at almost nothing to subvert, discredit and otherwise besmirch the reputation of the coaching staff for WBL, which all has an extremely positive reputation both within the hockey community as well as the white bear community.

This has been going on since this current group first joined the varsity team. This includes countless emails and text messages during and after games about all the things they claim the coaches are doing wrong. The motivation, it seems, is to try and push good coaches, like hartzell to give up, in the hopes that one of them can take the reigns (they have offered to "help" coach the team on several occasions).

Keep in mind in the backdrop of all this, is this same crew of parents exiting stage right between periods to go out and take shots and drink between periods at their cars to the point where they probably shouldn't drive those cars home. I truly hope the girls on the team read this article are embarrassed by their parents actions, I know I would be.

I just hope the rest of the coaching staff can keep the girls focused in a year that looks headed off the rails.

This isn't all the parents, but it isn't hard to see which ones it is.


You obviously have skin in the game at WBL with all this insider information! So I couldn't resist to see if that was true by checking previous posts by you. Turns out you must of had a boy playing at WBL a couple years ago and now your daughter does. I found a few interesting posts from you in 2015. You were calling for the boys head coach resignation, due to losses in sections. SO LOOK WHO IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! Sounds like to me you have a personal agenda in this post to blast some parents you don't get along with.

Now back to the real story at hand. From what I gather from reading Hartzell's article about himself, is that he got himself into some trouble. He obviously is pretty biased since he is the author and the story. So you really need to step back and evaluate what is being said. Sound like to me he broke a few cardinal rules and it was in his best interest to do some damage control on writing this article. #1. A coach should never use vulgar language directed at players. Which he admitted doing in the story #2. When a male coach enters a females locker room unannounced that is a big no no! Which he admitted to in the story. If this is true the moral of the story shouldn't be what caused the issue with the coach/players or what the parents did. The issue at hand is that something like that should never happen. It sounds like excusing himself from the team was the right move before things got out of hand.
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Mnnstar



Joined: 27 Jun 2016
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

woody wrote:
meridian90 wrote:


Make no mistake, there is a subset of the current teams parents that have stopped at almost nothing to subvert, discredit and otherwise besmirch the reputation of the coaching staff for WBL, which all has an extremely positive reputation both within the hockey community as well as the white bear community.

This has been going on since this current group first joined the varsity team. This includes countless emails and text messages during and after games about all the things they claim the coaches are doing wrong. The motivation, it seems, is to try and push good coaches, like hartzell to give up, in the hopes that one of them can take the reigns (they have offered to "help" coach the team on several occasions).

Keep in mind in the backdrop of all this, is this same crew of parents exiting stage right between periods to go out and take shots and drink between periods at their cars to the point where they probably shouldn't drive those cars home. I truly hope the girls on the team read this article are embarrassed by their parents actions, I know I would be.

I just hope the rest of the coaching staff can keep the girls focused in a year that looks headed off the rails.

This isn't all the parents, but it isn't hard to see which ones it is.


You obviously have skin in the game at WBL with all this insider information! So I couldn't resist to see if that was true by checking previous posts by you. Turns out you must of had a boy playing at WBL a couple years ago and now your daughter does. I found a few interesting posts from you in 2015. You were calling for the boys head coach resignation, due to losses in sections. SO LOOK WHO IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! Sounds like to me you have a personal agenda in this post to blast some parents you don't get along with.

Now back to the real story at hand. From what I gather from reading Hartzell's article about himself, is that he got himself into some trouble. He obviously is pretty biased since he is the author and the story. So you really need to step back and evaluate what is being said. Sound like to me he broke a few cardinal rules and it was in his best interest to do some damage control on writing this article. #1. A coach should never use vulgar language directed at players. Which he admitted doing in the story #2. When a male coach enters a females locker room unannounced that is a big no no! Which he admitted to in the story. If this is true the moral of the story shouldn't be what caused the issue with the coach/players or what the parents did. The issue at hand is that something like that should never happen. It sounds like excusing himself from the team was the right move before things got out of hand.
The true Moral to the story is this would have never happened if the girls had hustled to the ice. They had an excuse for being late but as Mr. Hartzell stated in his article the tardiness was extended. The fact that the coach felt he had to go hustle the kids up was the root to the problem. In the article it was clearly stated that the girls arrived at the rink the same time the coach did and being they were late to begin with. They should have tried to get on the ice as fast as they could. You are correct Woody there are two sides to every story. You must have a kid on the team as you apologize for the parents really well. What should have happened here was everyone admit that they made a mistake and move on. WBL did not need to lose a really good coach.
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woody



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

Mnnstar wrote:
woody wrote:
meridian90 wrote:


Make no mistake, there is a subset of the current teams parents that have stopped at almost nothing to subvert, discredit and otherwise besmirch the reputation of the coaching staff for WBL, which all has an extremely positive reputation both within the hockey community as well as the white bear community.

This has been going on since this current group first joined the varsity team. This includes countless emails and text messages during and after games about all the things they claim the coaches are doing wrong. The motivation, it seems, is to try and push good coaches, like hartzell to give up, in the hopes that one of them can take the reigns (they have offered to "help" coach the team on several occasions).

Keep in mind in the backdrop of all this, is this same crew of parents exiting stage right between periods to go out and take shots and drink between periods at their cars to the point where they probably shouldn't drive those cars home. I truly hope the girls on the team read this article are embarrassed by their parents actions, I know I would be.

I just hope the rest of the coaching staff can keep the girls focused in a year that looks headed off the rails.

This isn't all the parents, but it isn't hard to see which ones it is.


You obviously have skin in the game at WBL with all this insider information! So I couldn't resist to see if that was true by checking previous posts by you. Turns out you must of had a boy playing at WBL a couple years ago and now your daughter does. I found a few interesting posts from you in 2015. You were calling for the boys head coach resignation, due to losses in sections. SO LOOK WHO IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! Sounds like to me you have a personal agenda in this post to blast some parents you don't get along with.

Now back to the real story at hand. From what I gather from reading Hartzell's article about himself, is that he got himself into some trouble. He obviously is pretty biased since he is the author and the story. So you really need to step back and evaluate what is being said. Sound like to me he broke a few cardinal rules and it was in his best interest to do some damage control on writing this article. #1. A coach should never use vulgar language directed at players. Which he admitted doing in the story #2. When a male coach enters a females locker room unannounced that is a big no no! Which he admitted to in the story. If this is true the moral of the story shouldn't be what caused the issue with the coach/players or what the parents did. The issue at hand is that something like that should never happen. It sounds like excusing himself from the team was the right move before things got out of hand.
The true Moral to the story is this would have never happened if the girls had hustled to the ice. They had an excuse for being late but as Mr. Hartzell stated in his article the tardiness was extended. The fact that the coach felt he had to go hustle the kids up was the root to the problem. In the article it was clearly stated that the girls arrived at the rink the same time the coach did and being they were late to begin with. They should have tried to get on the ice as fast as they could. You are correct Woody there are two sides to every story. You must have a kid on the team as you apologize for the parents really well. What should have happened here was everyone admit that they made a mistake and move on. WBL did not need to lose a really good coach.


Nope don't have a kid on the team. Not sure where I was apologizing for the parents either. Just reread what I posted and can't seem to figure out where you see that. I fully get your point on the tardiness is not acceptable and was the root of the conflict. So if true like he describes the girls are definitely guilty of that. But that doesn't condone his behavior does it? Which he seems to not understand in the article. There is no excuse for his actions and that is all I was saying. Should at any time a coach direct foul vulgar language at players? If it was your daughter are you honestly ok with a coach verbal abusing your daughter? I would hope not. This story kind of reminds me of what happened to Rob Potter a few years back in Maple Grove. Crossed the line on verbal abuse of the girls and lost his job. Was a good coach but Maple Grove had no choice but to let him go.
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meridian90



Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

woody wrote:
meridian90 wrote:


Make no mistake, there is a subset of the current teams parents that have stopped at almost nothing to subvert, discredit and otherwise besmirch the reputation of the coaching staff for WBL, which all has an extremely positive reputation both within the hockey community as well as the white bear community.

This has been going on since this current group first joined the varsity team. This includes countless emails and text messages during and after games about all the things they claim the coaches are doing wrong. The motivation, it seems, is to try and push good coaches, like hartzell to give up, in the hopes that one of them can take the reigns (they have offered to "help" coach the team on several occasions).

Keep in mind in the backdrop of all this, is this same crew of parents exiting stage right between periods to go out and take shots and drink between periods at their cars to the point where they probably shouldn't drive those cars home. I truly hope the girls on the team read this article are embarrassed by their parents actions, I know I would be.

I just hope the rest of the coaching staff can keep the girls focused in a year that looks headed off the rails.

This isn't all the parents, but it isn't hard to see which ones it is.


You obviously have skin in the game at WBL with all this insider information! So I couldn't resist to see if that was true by checking previous posts by you. Turns out you must of had a boy playing at WBL a couple years ago and now your daughter does. I found a few interesting posts from you in 2015. You were calling for the boys head coach resignation, due to losses in sections. SO LOOK WHO IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! Sounds like to me you have a personal agenda in this post to blast some parents you don't get along with.


Everything you say here couldn't be more wrong. I am, admittedly a member of the WBL community, but I don't have kids nor have I ever had kids in the system. I've just been a casual observer with both programs over the last 15 year or so and that has allowed me to develop relationships with parents, coaches and players through the years.

I would stand by my posts in 2015, but at the same time, my tune on Sager has changed some in the recent years, mostly due to interactions with the man himself. When straight up asking him why he does x,y,z, he has never been defensive or anything, just honest. I've also seen a change in the way they play over the past 2-3 seasons, probably stemming from some situations in sections where they were the better team and came up on the short end. Am I still hard on him when he doesn't do well with a lot of talent, sure.

And I don't think anything I originally said was insider information, as anyone with a modicum of observational skills can deduce the above pretty quickly just from attendance at the games and keeping their ears open.

You need look no further than the Stillwater coaching situation last year to see where the parents had similar influence and results.
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woody



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

meridian90 wrote:
woody wrote:
meridian90 wrote:


Make no mistake, there is a subset of the current teams parents that have stopped at almost nothing to subvert, discredit and otherwise besmirch the reputation of the coaching staff for WBL, which all has an extremely positive reputation both within the hockey community as well as the white bear community.

This has been going on since this current group first joined the varsity team. This includes countless emails and text messages during and after games about all the things they claim the coaches are doing wrong. The motivation, it seems, is to try and push good coaches, like hartzell to give up, in the hopes that one of them can take the reigns (they have offered to "help" coach the team on several occasions).

Keep in mind in the backdrop of all this, is this same crew of parents exiting stage right between periods to go out and take shots and drink between periods at their cars to the point where they probably shouldn't drive those cars home. I truly hope the girls on the team read this article are embarrassed by their parents actions, I know I would be.

I just hope the rest of the coaching staff can keep the girls focused in a year that looks headed off the rails.

This isn't all the parents, but it isn't hard to see which ones it is.


You obviously have skin in the game at WBL with all this insider information! So I couldn't resist to see if that was true by checking previous posts by you. Turns out you must of had a boy playing at WBL a couple years ago and now your daughter does. I found a few interesting posts from you in 2015. You were calling for the boys head coach resignation, due to losses in sections. SO LOOK WHO IS CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! Sounds like to me you have a personal agenda in this post to blast some parents you don't get along with.


Everything you say here couldn't be more wrong. I am, admittedly a member of the WBL community, but I don't have kids nor have I ever had kids in the system. I've just been a casual observer with both programs over the last 15 year or so and that has allowed me to develop relationships with parents, coaches and players through the years.

I would stand by my posts in 2015, but at the same time, my tune on Sager has changed some in the recent years, mostly due to interactions with the man himself. When straight up asking him why he does x,y,z, he has never been defensive or anything, just honest. I've also seen a change in the way they play over the past 2-3 seasons, probably stemming from some situations in sections where they were the better team and came up on the short end. Am I still hard on him when he doesn't do well with a lot of talent, sure.

And I don't think anything I originally said was insider information, as anyone with a modicum of observational skills can deduce the above pretty quickly just from attendance at the games and keeping their ears open.

You need look no further than the Stillwater coaching situation last year to see where the parents had similar influence and results.


Casual observer that interacts with the coach on his decisions for x,y,z? Most casual observers wouldn't have such interactions I would think.

In regards to the Stillwater situation I think I read that he was forced out by parents on coaching decisions on x,y,z. Plus favored playing time for his own daughter. At least that's what was disclosed in the article I read a couple years back. Doesn't sound like this was the case at WBL. Not sure if you can really compare the two stories.
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meridian90



Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Trouble in WBLhttp://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/ Reply with quote

woody wrote:

In regards to the Stillwater situation I think I read that he was forced out by parents on coaching decisions on x,y,z. Plus favored playing time for his own daughter. At least that's what was disclosed in the article I read a couple years back. Doesn't sound like this was the case at WBL. Not sure if you can really compare the two stories.


Here is the article:

https://www.twincities.com/2016/04/08/stillwater-girls-hockey-coach-resigns-after-vicious-verbal-attacks-from-parents/

I meant they are comparable in the sense that a group of parents were the reason for a coaches resignation. I have heard some nasty things about what happened here as well, but I don't know which part is fact and fiction so I wouldn't disclose here.

The only difference here I think is that the WBL coaching staff seems to have the support of the administration, which does make it different.
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SECoach



Joined: 23 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article states that he "dropped an F-bomb" one time, which he admits. It does not in any way state that it was directed to a player, or that there has been any verbal abuse of players. Could have been, but nowhere is that stated. This is how things run inside a hockey program. A situation occurs, it is described differently by each of the 30 or so players, and is then described differently by 60 or so parents. Each, including the coach, bends it to conform with their present perspective. My perspective? Most of the time those perspectives are bent in direct relation to degree of satisfaction with playing time, team role, and even who started last night. There just aren't that many jackasses left coaching in the girls high school game, and the nice, gentle, loving coaches get railed just like the jackasses. It should be fun, but it's sure getting hard.
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ghshockeyfan



Joined: 05 Jun 2003
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Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SECoach wrote:
The article states that he "dropped an F-bomb" one time, which he admits. It does not in any way state that it was directed to a player, or that there has been any verbal abuse of players. Could have been, but nowhere is that stated. This is how things run inside a hockey program. A situation occurs, it is described differently by each of the 30 or so players, and is then described differently by 60 or so parents. Each, including the coach, bends it to conform with their present perspective. My perspective? Most of the time those perspectives are bent in direct relation to degree of satisfaction with playing time, team role, and even who started last night. There just aren't that many jackasses left coaching in the girls high school game, and the nice, gentle, loving coaches get railed just like the jackasses. It should be fun, but it's sure getting hard.


Good clarification on directed. I was going to say the same. I would strongly agree in a huge difference here. I'm quite certain a coach wouldn't direct that at a player. We need to be careful about what we infer.
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SimplyPut



Joined: 28 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always sad when one or two parents cause issues like this. Two wrongs don't make a right, however, if the girls were on time, I assume none of this would be affecting this team right now. The team has a quality, experienced coaching staff. lets let them handle the issue without social meeting adding fuel to the fire.
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woody



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghshockeyfan wrote:
SECoach wrote:
The article states that he "dropped an F-bomb" one time, which he admits. It does not in any way state that it was directed to a player, or that there has been any verbal abuse of players. Could have been, but nowhere is that stated. This is how things run inside a hockey program. A situation occurs, it is described differently by each of the 30 or so players, and is then described differently by 60 or so parents. Each, including the coach, bends it to conform with their present perspective. My perspective? Most of the time those perspectives are bent in direct relation to degree of satisfaction with playing time, team role, and even who started last night. There just aren't that many jackasses left coaching in the girls high school game, and the nice, gentle, loving coaches get railed just like the jackasses. It should be fun, but it's sure getting hard.


Good clarification on directed. I was going to say the same. I would strongly agree in a huge difference here. I'm quite certain a coach wouldn't direct that at a player. We need to be careful about what we infer.


Fully agree on all levels of your statement. I have coached many years and saying the wrong word has slipped out once in awhile. It happens and should be looked as a small slip up if it isn't a major reoccurrence. I think what everyone needs to consider is who may be writing the article. Do you think he might be trying to sugar coat exactly went on? I find it hard to believe parents would go that far on the use of his vulgar language unless it was directed at the girls. If it was shame on Hartzell!
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meridian90



Joined: 27 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woody wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:
SECoach wrote:
The article states that he "dropped an F-bomb" one time, which he admits. It does not in any way state that it was directed to a player, or that there has been any verbal abuse of players. Could have been, but nowhere is that stated. This is how things run inside a hockey program. A situation occurs, it is described differently by each of the 30 or so players, and is then described differently by 60 or so parents. Each, including the coach, bends it to conform with their present perspective. My perspective? Most of the time those perspectives are bent in direct relation to degree of satisfaction with playing time, team role, and even who started last night. There just aren't that many jackasses left coaching in the girls high school game, and the nice, gentle, loving coaches get railed just like the jackasses. It should be fun, but it's sure getting hard.


Good clarification on directed. I was going to say the same. I would strongly agree in a huge difference here. I'm quite certain a coach wouldn't direct that at a player. We need to be careful about what we infer.


Fully agree on all levels of your statement. I have coached many years and saying the wrong word has slipped out once in awhile. It happens and should be looked as a small slip up if it isn't a major reoccurrence. I think what everyone needs to consider is who may be writing the article. Do you think he might be trying to sugar coat exactly went on? I find it hard to believe parents would go that far on the use of his vulgar language unless it was directed at the girls. If it was shame on Hartzell!


From my understanding, the use of any language was secondary to the entering of the locker room without knocking for the parents, which Hartzell fully admitted. The language, whether it did or did not cross a line (and from what I have heard it did not) was just another bullet in the chamber for the parents.

I do find it interesting for parents to cite language as an issue in general, unless, as you said, it was directed at a player in a negative way. The language on the ice between players of opposing teams is often much more vulgar and, in some cases, much more graphic than maybe parents are willing to realize or admit.
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SECoach



Joined: 23 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woody wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:
SECoach wrote:
The article states that he "dropped an F-bomb" one time, which he admits. It does not in any way state that it was directed to a player, or that there has been any verbal abuse of players. Could have been, but nowhere is that stated. This is how things run inside a hockey program. A situation occurs, it is described differently by each of the 30 or so players, and is then described differently by 60 or so parents. Each, including the coach, bends it to conform with their present perspective. My perspective? Most of the time those perspectives are bent in direct relation to degree of satisfaction with playing time, team role, and even who started last night. There just aren't that many jackasses left coaching in the girls high school game, and the nice, gentle, loving coaches get railed just like the jackasses. It should be fun, but it's sure getting hard.


Good clarification on directed. I was going to say the same. I would strongly agree in a huge difference here. I'm quite certain a coach wouldn't direct that at a player. We need to be careful about what we infer.


Fully agree on all levels of your statement. I have coached many years and saying the wrong word has slipped out once in awhile. It happens and should be looked as a small slip up if it isn't a major reoccurrence. I think what everyone needs to consider is who may be writing the article. Do you think he might be trying to sugar coat exactly went on? I find it hard to believe parents would go that far on the use of his vulgar language unless it was directed at the girls. If it was shame on Hartzell!


In most programs there is at least one, if not a handful that is fully capable of taking one slip of the tongue, one absent-minded entry into the locker room, or any other minor occurrence, that can be blown out of proportion and used against what could be a good person and coach. Depending on one's view, virtually anything can be turned into a fireable offense if described in a certain fashion and with sufficient horror. I surely am not defending any particular event, but I am definitely saying that these things are rarely what they are put out to be. They are often easily used in malicious ways. I have likely entered our team locker room several hundred times. Have I ever forgotten to call out before entering? I admit that I have. I feel it was completely innocent. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong players, wrong line up that night, wrong administration, and I'm gone. Believe me, they can go that far.
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mulefarm



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Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like you are guilty if accused, and must prove your innocence? Why would anybody want to coach these days? It certainly isn't for the money, and now the enjoyment can turn into a nightmare! Could this been some type of set-up?
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greybeard58



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1736

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main fact is that he entered into the Girls locker unannounced, whether the girls were late is a moot point, any male coach or reasonable adult should always be aware of the fact no male should ever enter a girls locker room unannounced and he admitted to that and he is guilty. Removal should be the only outcome.
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Mnnstar



Joined: 27 Jun 2016
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have a double standard for what is acceptable between sport and society. I have had three daughter play sports all have played hockey, soccer and various spring sports. As a parent in the summer my girls wear less on our pontoon than they ever did in the locker room. So with that being said, I think that this is one of those situations where common sense has to come into play here. I am paraphrasing the article but I believe the point was to hurry the players up. Should he have stood outside the door and hollered in and waited probably. We are in a society of shared gender bathrooms and non gender locker rooms. Right wrong or in different that is the society that we live in. Has the author of the article ever had a conviction or even an investigation for inappropriate behavior? I don't think he has and the preface to the article shows he knows right and wrong. Back to the main point this is about two teenagers that were late to practice and messing around in the locker room. Maybe the HS's need to assign locker moms. I hope not!
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Hansonbrother



Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

greybeard58 wrote:
The main fact is that he entered into the Girls locker unannounced, whether the girls were late is a moot point, any male coach or reasonable adult should always be aware of the fact no male should ever enter a girls locker room unannounced and he admitted to that and he is guilty. Removal should be the only outcome.


Any smart coach would have a HARD rule with parents and players, minimum of shorts and a t-shirt in the locker room at ALL TIMES!! That way a coach can come in there at any time and not have to worry about in-decency. If girls need to change, they go to the bathroom and do it there, but T-Shirts and shorts are mandatory in the locker room. This alleviates any "barging in" and issues related to it.
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MNHockeyFan



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 6468

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hansonbrother wrote:
Any smart coach would have a HARD rule with parents and players, minimum of shorts and a t-shirt in the locker room at ALL TIMES!! That way a coach can come in there at any time and not have to worry about in-decency. If girls need to change, they go to the bathroom and do it there, but T-Shirts and shorts are mandatory in the locker room. This alleviates any "barging in" and issues related to it.

Agree 100%. And that "smart coach" would also have a HARD rule about players being on time for all practices and games, unless said player(s) have an agreed-to permission to be late, or absent, in advance.
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IceHiker



Joined: 16 May 2017
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point I will remain out of this conversation. Maybe I have a biased eye in the game but like a pirate I will keep it covered.

With my years of hockey background I will say one thing that does not bring light or dark to this story.

Any HS girls team that does not have a female coach, JV and Varsity - YES BOTH, are fools. Never should a male coach walk into a locker room, changing area, off site pool or conduct a 1 on 1 with a player without a female coach present. After all the changes in our society I feel this will be a mandatory requirement from MSHSL very soon.
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ghshockeyfan



Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Posts: 6085
Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IceHiker wrote:
At this point I will remain out of this conversation. Maybe I have a biased eye in the game but like a pirate I will keep it covered.

With my years of hockey background I will say one thing that does not bring light or dark to this story.

Any HS girls team that does not have a female coach, JV and Varsity - YES BOTH, are fools. Never should a male coach walk into a locker room, changing area, off site pool or conduct a 1 on 1 with a player without a female coach present. After all the changes in our society I feel this will be a mandatory requirement from MSHSL very soon.


You can't do one on one's. Period. Always need two coaches present. You can barely do any mtg without a parent present these days and even then there is trouble sometimes. Often it seems you need an administrator present as well, and maybe others.

I get the point about adding a female coach to that count.

I would also say you can't assume this is about female or male coaches either. For example, as a male coach, I never met with male players alone, or entered a men's locker room unannounced. I assume same would be true for women coaching girls, etc.
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MNHockeyFan



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
Posts: 6468

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ghshockeyfan wrote:
I would also say you can't assume this is about female or male coaches either. For example, as a male coach, I never met with male players alone, or entered a men's locker room unannounced. I assume same would be true for women coaching girls, etc.

I would think any new requirement(s) imposed by the MSHSL would have to apply equally to both sexes; otherwise claims of sexual discrimination would be sure to arise.
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Mnnstar



Joined: 27 Jun 2016
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talked, to a friend of mine who has a girl on WBL team. Now you only believe Part of what you hear and half of what you see. He said, one of the parents is bragging that “he fired Hartzell”. I see since he has left WBL has lost two of their last 3 games. He also said that the 3 parents all have D1 comitts on the team and two of them had been this group of girls youth coaches.
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highgloveside



Joined: 14 Dec 2017
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yikes, Talked to a lot of people down in WBL about it so I decided to do some reading as well. From what I read in his articles he is quite controversial as a coach. People down there are telling me that there had been a few girls who quit the team this year and the main reason is listening to Hartzell's Egotistical Vulgar mouth on a day to day basis. Said he directed foul language AT girls on a daily basis. Also said he would tell girls there shift was Horsesh** without any constructive help on how to do better. He mentions in many of his articles that he thinks parents are all crazy but if you really do some digging and read several of his articles HE does the exact same thing. He has been critical of almost every one of his sons coaches and on top of that he has even been critical of his whole families bosses. They all got fired in one of his articles and he lambasted their bosses because of it. Maybe everyone who employs or coaches his family is wrong? Any wa,y in speaking to a few different parents It was in his best interest to walk away rather than formally explain in detail what he has done over the past two years. For those of you who think he is a great coach, sounds like you can have him.
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