Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

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Upfan111
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by Upfan111 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:16 pm

formersection3Afan wrote:
kniven wrote:4 out of 80. That’s a lot of applicants. I think they have a nice hockey program there at CSS.
Tim Madsen is new CSS HC
Great hire for CSS! Now that opens another HC coaching position with the Wilderness. Wonder who will apply for that job?

Usthockey13
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by Usthockey13 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:21 pm

Upfan111 wrote:
formersection3Afan wrote:
kniven wrote:4 out of 80. That’s a lot of applicants. I think they have a nice hockey program there at CSS.
Tim Madsen is new CSS HC
Great hire for CSS! Now that opens another HC coaching position with the Wilderness. Wonder who will apply for that job?
Smalley? :wink:

Upfan111
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by Upfan111 » Fri May 25, 2018 8:22 pm

Usthockey13 wrote:
Upfan111 wrote:
formersection3Afan wrote:
kniven wrote:4 out of 80. That’s a lot of applicants. I think they have a nice hockey program there at CSS.
Tim Madsen is new CSS HC
Great hire for CSS! Now that opens another HC coaching position with the Wilderness. Wonder who will apply for that job?
Smalley? :wink:
I would have to think he's the front runner

kniven
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by kniven » Sat May 26, 2018 2:55 am

Upfan111 wrote:
Usthockey13 wrote:
Upfan111 wrote:
formersection3Afan wrote:
kniven wrote:4 out of 80. That’s a lot of applicants. I think they have a nice hockey program there at CSS.
Tim Madsen is new CSS HC
Great hire for CSS! Now that opens another HC coaching position with the Wilderness. Wonder who will apply for that job?
Smalley? :wink:
I would have to think he's the front runner
Wouldn’t the Wilderness job be moving backwards from high school?

Upfan111
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Post by Upfan111 » Sat May 26, 2018 3:49 am

Not sure how you would see it as a step backwards? I don't know for a fact but it has to pay more the high school salary of 5 thousand. Must be more recognition / better opportunities.

Smalley applied for CSS job and didn't get an interview

Madson coach of Wilderness applies, interviews and gets the job.

Smalley did say when he was hired (and it's in the pine journal) he was looking at CEC as a stepping stone to go coach further up the hockey ladder. I think the Wilderness will be a step up.

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Sat May 26, 2018 4:04 am

kniven wrote:
Upfan111 wrote:
Usthockey13 wrote:
Upfan111 wrote:
formersection3Afan wrote:
kniven wrote:4 out of 80. That’s a lot of applicants. I think they have a nice hockey program there at CSS.
Tim Madsen is new CSS HC
Great hire for CSS! Now that opens another HC coaching position with the Wilderness. Wonder who will apply for that job?
Smalley? :wink:
I would have to think he's the front runner
Wouldn’t the Wilderness job be moving backwards from high school?
Perhaps in Cloquet the Lumberjacks have a larger fanbase than the Wilderness, and the NAHL is a step below the USHL, but it's certainly a step up from high school in both the coaching ladder and overall hockey quality. Would imagine that's why Lakeville South's coach switched positions to the NAHL Magicians.

kniven
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by kniven » Sat May 26, 2018 6:14 am

Well, I guess we will find out soon enough. If Smalley leaves CEC, I wonder who the Lumberjacks would be looking at. I don’t think Smalley is going anywhere. I also don’t think he applied for CSS job

Upfan111
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by Upfan111 » Sat May 26, 2018 1:42 pm

kniven wrote:Well, I guess we will find out soon enough. If Smalley leaves CEC, I wonder who the Lumberjacks would be looking at. I don’t think Smalley is going anywhere. I also don’t think he applied for CSS job
Your wrong on your last comment, he applied. I don't know if he had all the qualifications, but he applied.

No need to sound your Lumberjack alarm yet, they survived after the Esse / JL tirade you went on and everything worked out; up until the 1st round of playoffs.

kniven
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by kniven » Sat May 26, 2018 4:58 pm

Upfan111 wrote:
kniven wrote:Well, I guess we will find out soon enough. If Smalley leaves CEC, I wonder who the Lumberjacks would be looking at. I don’t think Smalley is going anywhere. I also don’t think he applied for CSS job
Your wrong on your last comment, he applied. I don't know if he had all the qualifications, but he applied.

No need to sound your Lumberjack alarm yet, they survived after the Esse / JL tirade you went on and everything worked out; up until the 1st round of playoffs.
It is what it is, and it’s going to be what it’s going be be. I’m a little fish in a big pond. High school hockey and the kids :).

Section 8 guy
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Post by Section 8 guy » Sun May 27, 2018 5:33 am

I wouldn't think this past season for CEC would have been viewed as living up to expectations would it? Even before the playoffs started.......

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Sun May 27, 2018 7:21 am

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
BSUBeaver wrote: I don't have a huge problem with Alexandria, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, Orono, etc., playing at the Class A level. They are playing by the rules and standards that the High School League has set up. The High School League has also said you can petition to opt up if you want, but no where in its bylaws does it say you have to just because you are having success at the Class A level.

Now, what I think rubs people the wrong way (I know it does me somewhat), it the perceived abuse of the "Open Enrollment Policy" that the State of Minnesota has. Even though it is hard to prove, there have been what appears to be very clear cut examples of "recruitment" over the years as programs try to get ahead. This has now lead to examples of programs trying to "keep up with the Joneses". These examples have lead to some success for some schools, at the expense of schools that are, more or less, abiding by the rules. This leads to bitter feelings.

You are seeing it in other sports as well, especially with basketball and the private schools in the Cities. Should a private school that is not bound by residential boundaries and can offer financial aid to prospective students (and athletes) be allowed to play in the class they are assigned to by enrollment? In essence, these schools can go out and "recruit" some of the best athletes from public schools, offer them a financial aid package that makes the private school affordable for the family, and viola, they are in. Is it an abuse of the system? That is up to debate.
This is spot on. Alexandria is the team that the Class A system was made for. A smaller public school that can find success against schools of similar size (even if they are at the higher end of Class A enrollment). I know this is an age-old debate, but private school enrollment numbers are irrelevant. Their potential enrollment pool is the entire state, and sometimes even wider (just look at Holy Family's goalie last season from out of state, who basically was the entire team in their section final). I do credit schools like Duluth Marshall, Holy Family, etc who understand this and opt up.
That's a great post and I have a lot of respect for your opinion, but that's not the world we live in. I'm sure you've heard of open enrollment. The Privates have no advantage anymore. If you're a Great Hockey player in the Duluth area, you can pay $18,000 to go to Marshall, or Hermantown will send a bus to your house to pick you up, and It's Absolutely Free!

It's all a "random" lottery if the grades ever get full. But there hasn't been a Hockey player denied in Hermantown since 2001. Those kids get "randomly" selected each year.

kniven
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Post by kniven » Sun May 27, 2018 4:10 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:I wouldn't think this past season for CEC would have been viewed as living up to expectations would it? Even before the playoffs started.......
That Grand Rapids loss the last game of the absolutely was tough on me. And then the loss to Duluth Marshall was deserved. Duluth Marshall played better that playoff game and deserved the win. I wouldn’t have called it an upset though.....Marshall was very talented last year.....as was CEC.

greenwayraider
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Post by greenwayraider » Sun May 27, 2018 9:47 pm

Looks like Ville will not be back for Greenway. Visa problem. That puts Hermantown in the driver’s seat.

kniven
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Post by kniven » Sun May 27, 2018 10:01 pm

greenwayraider wrote:Looks like Ville will not be back for Greenway. Visa problem. That puts Hermantown in the driver’s seat.
Hermantown ‘s depth of 4 quality lines and 6 D and elite league goalie. They would be in the drivers seat in 7AA as well along with Duluth East.

BSUBeaver
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Post by BSUBeaver » Mon May 28, 2018 2:30 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
BSUBeaver wrote: I don't have a huge problem with Alexandria, Hermantown, Mahtomedi, Orono, etc., playing at the Class A level. They are playing by the rules and standards that the High School League has set up. The High School League has also said you can petition to opt up if you want, but no where in its bylaws does it say you have to just because you are having success at the Class A level.

Now, what I think rubs people the wrong way (I know it does me somewhat), it the perceived abuse of the "Open Enrollment Policy" that the State of Minnesota has. Even though it is hard to prove, there have been what appears to be very clear cut examples of "recruitment" over the years as programs try to get ahead. This has now lead to examples of programs trying to "keep up with the Joneses". These examples have lead to some success for some schools, at the expense of schools that are, more or less, abiding by the rules. This leads to bitter feelings.

You are seeing it in other sports as well, especially with basketball and the private schools in the Cities. Should a private school that is not bound by residential boundaries and can offer financial aid to prospective students (and athletes) be allowed to play in the class they are assigned to by enrollment? In essence, these schools can go out and "recruit" some of the best athletes from public schools, offer them a financial aid package that makes the private school affordable for the family, and viola, they are in. Is it an abuse of the system? That is up to debate.
This is spot on. Alexandria is the team that the Class A system was made for. A smaller public school that can find success against schools of similar size (even if they are at the higher end of Class A enrollment). I know this is an age-old debate, but private school enrollment numbers are irrelevant. Their potential enrollment pool is the entire state, and sometimes even wider (just look at Holy Family's goalie last season from out of state, who basically was the entire team in their section final). I do credit schools like Duluth Marshall, Holy Family, etc who understand this and opt up.
That's a great post and I have a lot of respect for your opinion, but that's not the world we live in. I'm sure you've heard of open enrollment. The Privates have no advantage anymore. If you're a Great Hockey player in the Duluth area, you can pay $18,000 to go to Marshall, or Hermantown will send a bus to your house to pick you up, and It's Absolutely Free!

It's all a "random" lottery if the grades ever get full. But there hasn't been a Hockey player denied in Hermantown since 2001. Those kids get "randomly" selected each year.
The bastardization of open enrollment......

kniven
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Re: Is Greenway turning into Hermantown?

Post by kniven » Mon May 28, 2018 3:24 am

kniven wrote:Well, I guess we will find out soon enough. If Smalley leaves CEC, I wonder who the Lumberjacks would be looking at. I don’t think Smalley is going anywhere. I also don’t think he applied for CSS job
Anybody hear from a source that Smalley is interested in Wilderness head coaching job? It does make sense, I guess.

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon May 28, 2018 4:15 am

Jeffy95 wrote: That's a great post and I have a lot of respect for your opinion, but that's not the world we live in. I'm sure you've heard of open enrollment. The Privates have no advantage anymore. If you're a Great Hockey player in the Duluth area, you can pay $18,000 to go to Marshall, or Hermantown will send a bus to your house to pick you up, and It's Absolutely Free!

It's all a "random" lottery if the grades ever get full. But there hasn't been a Hockey player denied in Hermantown since 2001. Those kids get "randomly" selected each year.
Open enrollment has certainly leveled the playing field between privates and publics, but I'm assuming you're being a bit sarcastic with the bus part. It's against public school policy to send district busses outside boundaries. They can always take the city bus though!

Unfortunately, the advantage still lays with the private schools fairly substantially. Yes, players can open enroll, but it can't be after the start of 9th grade (still bantams for most players). If you transfer after to a public school, your family needs to move into the new district. Since private school's don't have district boundaries, a family simply needs to change addresses to be eligible. Could be one house down in their current neighborhood. The timing on this is lenient too... have seen the transfer of schools take place a year after the family moved and the player still didn't need to sit.

A more nuanced problem is that private schools are essentially allowed to recruit (understandably, as they have no youth system). I know, some public school coaches do it too, but because it's not allowed, a lot of coaches choose to follow the rules. Last, something many people don't know is private school athletes who live outside of the local boundaries (ie a Cretin kid who lives in Bloomington) don't have their consumption violations automatically reported to the school. I know of at least one top player this year who had multiple drinking violations during the season but didn't sit out a game.

Sorry for lengthy response. Obviously some privates abuse the system and others do not, just as some public schools work outside the rulebook and get away with it.

greenwayraider
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Post by greenwayraider » Mon May 28, 2018 4:36 am

I’m not sure what public policy regarding busing outside a district you are referring to. Greenway buses go through Rapids and vice versa. Greenway is a big loser to Rapids in open enrollment. Rapids buses pick up these kids in Greenway.

Section 8 guy
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Post by Section 8 guy » Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 am

kniven wrote:
greenwayraider wrote:Looks like Ville will not be back for Greenway. Visa problem. That puts Hermantown in the driver’s seat.
Hermantown ‘s depth of 4 quality lines and 6 D and elite league goalie. They would be in the drivers seat in 7AA as well along with Duluth East.
Can someone please make it stop? Make it stop...... Please?!?!?!

Duluthguy
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Post by Duluthguy » Mon May 28, 2018 2:26 pm

kniven wrote:
greenwayraider wrote:Looks like Ville will not be back for Greenway. Visa problem. That puts Hermantown in the driver’s seat.
Hermantown ‘s depth of 4 quality lines and 6 D and elite league goalie. They would be in the drivers seat in 7AA as well along with Duluth East.
When was a Hermantown goalie named to the Elite League?

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon May 28, 2018 2:29 pm

greenwayraider wrote:I’m not sure what public policy regarding busing outside a district you are referring to. Greenway buses go through Rapids and vice versa. Greenway is a big loser to Rapids in open enrollment. Rapids buses pick up these kids in Greenway.
I stand corrected. It appears it’s up to each individual school district if they want to bus outside their boundaries. In the twin cities it must just be that the larger districts choose to limit their transportation costs. Minnetonka for example gains 1/3 of their students from open enrollment, and instead of bussing all over the region, parents drive their kids to a neighborhood on the edge of their boundaries for a bus to pick them up there. The bussing part was really not a part of my overall point however on the advantage of private vs public.

kniven
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Post by kniven » Mon May 28, 2018 4:42 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
kniven wrote:
greenwayraider wrote:Looks like Ville will not be back for Greenway. Visa problem. That puts Hermantown in the driver’s seat.
Hermantown ‘s depth of 4 quality lines and 6 D and elite league goalie. They would be in the drivers seat in 7AA as well along with Duluth East.
Can someone please make it stop? Make it stop...... Please?!?!?!
😳😳

Section 8 guy
Posts: 331
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Post by Section 8 guy » Tue May 29, 2018 5:06 am

kniven wrote:
Section 8 guy wrote:
kniven wrote:
greenwayraider wrote:Looks like Ville will not be back for Greenway. Visa problem. That puts Hermantown in the driver’s seat.
Hermantown ‘s depth of 4 quality lines and 6 D and elite league goalie. They would be in the drivers seat in 7AA as well along with Duluth East.
Can someone please make it stop? Make it stop...... Please?!?!?!
😳😳
There are many years where Hermantown would be a major factor in 7AA. The upcoming season likely isn't one of them.

kniven
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Post by kniven » Tue May 29, 2018 2:27 pm

It’s not healthy to underestimate Hermantown hockey.

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Tue May 29, 2018 4:08 pm

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
greenwayraider wrote:I’m not sure what public policy regarding busing outside a district you are referring to. Greenway buses go through Rapids and vice versa. Greenway is a big loser to Rapids in open enrollment. Rapids buses pick up these kids in Greenway.
I stand corrected. It appears it’s up to each individual school district if they want to bus outside their boundaries. In the twin cities it must just be that the larger districts choose to limit their transportation costs. Minnetonka for example gains 1/3 of their students from open enrollment, and instead of bussing all over the region, parents drive their kids to a neighborhood on the edge of their boundaries for a bus to pick them up there. The bussing part was really not a part of my overall point however on the advantage of private vs public.
Yep, Hermantown sends buses into the Duluth and Proctor School Districts every day. Has for many years.

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