Bantams vs. High School

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Schotzy
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Bantams vs. High School

Post by Schotzy » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:24 pm

I am curious with Bantam tryouts, captains practices happening, and soon high school tryouts, what are your thoughts on kids entering their 2nd year of bantams jumping to high school? I have some thoughts on this, but would like to hear what you all think? I know there are many pros and cons and many variables that come in to play.

That guy for that thing
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by That guy for that thing » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 pm

First I think that if you have the ability to paly a second year of Bantams, it is more beneficial than going to play JV. The pace of play is slower, the players are not as strong or fast, and the player can develop their confidence and skills. Plus if you play more games in Bantams which means more ice time and puck touches. That all contributes to more controlled growth and progress.

Now, if you program is smaller, and you will be able to get playing time on a JV team, or you are just good enough to play on the Varsity team as a 9th grader, there are quite a few of those players each year, I say go for it. The pace will be significantly fast, but your touches and ice time will be significantly reduced as opposed to Bantams. Size does have a big part to play because even with putting a larger emphasis on big hits and illegal hits, you need to be able to win puck battles in corners and in front of the net.

I say 95% of kids should stay in Bantams but ego's will play a big part in it. The Bantam state tournament is not the same as the X.

InThePipes
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by InThePipes » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:46 pm

Agree, depending on if you make it to regions or state the Bantam season can be 6-8 weeks longer too. No need to rush it.

bardown27
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by bardown27 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:05 pm

If you aren’t going to be in the top 6 forwards or top 4 D, stay in bantams.

MWS coach
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by MWS coach » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:57 pm

Moving the focus on this topic away from the games. While I agree that the game differential is a big part of the equation, but practices are also a very big part of the equation. Let me elaborate further, If you will be hands down the best player on the bantam team and not really challenged in practice is that really going to help the player get better? As an example, if you are an F and you easily walk the D and score majority of the time when doing 1 v 1 drill where does the improvement come from? This is just one example of a drill, just think about different types of drills and how much the player will be challenged. Same goes for D Men, If you stop the F on just about every 1 v 1 drill Etc... not a lot of challenge. Now let's look at it from moving up to JV/Varsity. One of the first considerations is does JV/Varsity practice together? How Often? Do they actually compete against each other in drills? Using previous example, the F now has to try and get around the #1 D that just happens to be a stud 12th grader....Hmmmm pretty easy to see where more development is going to happen. I know some HS practices may split JV/Varsity, but if you are 3/4th line or #5-7 maybe even #8 D would you skate both practices and how often? Ok, if you are going to be the #8 day, stay in bantams, but I don't think it is as clear cut as top 6 F, or top 4 day you move up. I think the # depends a lot on how close the player is the 2nd line or 3-4 D. Would one injury move the player into the top 6/top 4? Ok, not even just injury, but a kid doing something stupid! :D Talent level of each team matters a lot also. If you are going to stay on a bantam team that isn't very good, nor is it very deep, well the JV team might just be better. I understand usually, bantam team are equal to or better then some JV teams, but that isn't always the case, thus look at that aspect with open eyes.

Then there are so many things that are specific to the individual, are they emotionally and physically ready to play HS? Do they thrive on being challenged, or would the benefit more from being the "guy" and building confidence? and so on and so on.....Certainly don't rush it, but also don't simply say if not top 6 or top 4 stay in bantams (BTW I thought that way for years).

When looking a little closer at games, what type of talent level will the player play on the different teams (Bantam, JV, Varsity) Even if limited varsity, have to figure that into the equation. Sure if going to play varsity all the time, easy decision provided the player is ready to make the jump.

I don't think it is as simple as if not top 4 or 6 stay in Bantams, but agree don't rush it either but look at all the different aspects. Of course HS coach has to be on the same page....

612hockeytown
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by 612hockeytown » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:33 pm

Looking at kids who skipped a second year of bantams - off the top of my head (some had a lot of success, some not as much):

-Nick Pierre (skipped bantams all together I believe)
-Janicke brothers (Both Trevor and Justin played HS after one year of bantams and then both left to the NTDP squad after that year).
-Ethan Haider skipped 2nd year of bantams to play HS at Maple Grove as well, left after sophomore season.
-Brennan Boynton also did the same and started 4 years at Champlin Park.
-Ryder Donovan did (I think?) and played all 4 years of Varsity (or was it 5)?
-Jake Hale did and then left after 1 year to the USHL. Plays in the NAHL now.
-Ryan Mulrenin I think as well? Played 2 years of Varsity, then JG, then left for the NCDC.


You don't leave bantams to play JV OR ride the bench as a 4th liner for varsity IMO. You need to be top 6 F/top 4 D or a starting goalie. There is a lot more that have tried, just can't think of all the names.
Last edited by 612hockeytown on Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hockey59
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by hockey59 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:22 pm

bardown27 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:05 pm
If you aren’t going to be in the top 6 forwards or top 4 D, stay in bantams.
If your not going to be a Varsity top 6 forward or top 4 D (as a 9th grader) you should stay in Bantams. That’s pretty much the universal standard ☝️

Blue Line
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Blue Line » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:19 pm

bardown27 wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:05 pm
If you aren’t going to be in the top 6 forwards or top 4 D, stay in bantams.
This is all that needs to be said.

kniven
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by kniven » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:19 pm

Schotzy wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:24 pm
I am curious with Bantam tryouts, captains practices happening, and soon high school tryouts, what are your thoughts on kids entering their 2nd year of bantams jumping to high school? I have some thoughts on this, but would like to hear what you all think? I know there are many pros and cons and many variables that come in to play.
And...what about first year bantams playing high school puck

kniven
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by kniven » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:21 pm

Ryder Donovan didn’t play Bantams at all. Went from PeeWeeAA to high school varsity.

O-townClown
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by O-townClown » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:13 pm

kniven wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:21 pm
Ryder Donovan didn’t play Bantams at all. Went from PeeWeeAA to high school varsity.
What grade was he the year he didn't play organized hockey? I thought that was 7th?

Travis Boyd is another that bypassed Pee Wee altogether. I think Anders Lee as well.
Be kind. Rewind.

Section 8 guy
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:11 am

MWS coach wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:57 pm
If you will be hands down the best player on the bantam team and not really challenged in practice is that really going to help the player get better?
Yes.

Playing makes you better. Looking further than that is overthinking it. Unless we are talking about a great player in a real small Association.....very few Bantam players are truly so much better than their peers that they can't get better by practicing and playing with them. Also, If there's 10 kids that think they are "hands down the best player on the Bantam team"....probably only one of them really is. Are you that one? You sure? You Positive? It's ok to be the best player on the ice. There's a lot to learn from it.

One guy that never moved up as a younger player........Tiger Woods. People told Earl he should.......needed to. Earls belief was that he wanted Tiger to dominate his peers at every level so that was the only thing he knew and the only thing his opponents knew as well. Seems like that worked out ok. Granted, golf doesn't have defenders like hockey does........but you still have the same dynamic of him needing to get better and needing people to challenge and push him competitively. He never knew anything but being the best player. That extreme level of confidence served him very well. We'll never know the data I'm sure......My buck says people putting themselves in positions where they are now average players when they aren't used to it has ruined a lot more players than dominating at their actual age level has.

yesiplayedhockey
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:20 am

There is no right or wrong answer but if you told me I was in charge of making the decision I would say take your time and stay at Bantams

Bantams
45-55 games
You're kid is probably on the PP and top 6 (maybe top 3)
weekend tournaments (the last you'll probably experience this)
Lots of free press from YHH (maybe an award or two)
very few practices (which is a drawback to the kid but a bonus for the parents)
The puck will be on his stick a lot more...building confidence....

High School
22-25 games
Probably a role player (some teams will roll 3 lines but so many teams the top 6 get 75% of the ice)
14-15 year old in a locker room with a bunch of 18 year old kids talking about sex, etc etc, etc)
Practices 3-4 days a week (probably the #1 plus for playing HS)

Parents are pushing their kids to fast and usually it doesn't matter either way if a very good hockey player plays up or stays with his age group....They would be fine either way

You also didn't say what position he is.....If he's a D I could lean a little more towards him playing HS...If he's a forward I lean more towards staying down...And if he's a goalie...oh lets be honest, no one cares about those goalies :) .... actually if he's a goalie and if he would be #1, then go HS

PuckNA
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by PuckNA » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:44 am

Curious why D would be a maybe vs forward?

yesiplayedhockey
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:01 am

My personal view on this...

I like a forward to practice more puck possession the younger they are...Puck on stick, time and space to make the right decision. Repetition...over and over and over I think this is a little more important than playing to a faster speed.. I think speed is easier to learn the more confident you become with puck possession.

For a D. I think 3-4 practices a week with top end forwards coming down on them would progress their game a little better than a bottom forward line of a bantam team. Also most top end D playing Bantams can go coast to coast with little challenges....But if they play HS, they may have to learn to move the puck up a little quicker.

Again, just my view...There truly is no right or wrong answer....But typically I like time and space for forwards (over speed) but with the D I think it's okay to be little over matched with the speed of the game and learning from that.

Either way, poise and confidence is so important in development which is why in theory I'd like to see all kids stay at their level

Goose21
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Goose21 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:20 pm

I'd say the high school situation they move into would be a factor. The transition is going to be easier on a young player if he has stronger teammates around him. Conversely, they are going to struggle getting the puck out of the zone or be put in more vulnerable positions in the offensive end or in transition (thinking D here). Obviously this is true for anyone, but a consideration.
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

Mite-dad
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Mite-dad » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:38 pm

My association is dealing with this. IMVHO, it is a huge negative. All but one second year bantam moved up. With what is left, we have to play Bantam B. We have a handful of first year bantams that should be playing Bantam A hockey that will now not develop as they should. None of the players that moved up will be top 6 forwards, top 4 D. Not sure if this was a player thing or a parent thing. Heard mention of lawsuits from parents if the coach didn't allow it. Really sad IMO.

Goose21
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Goose21 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:06 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:38 pm
My association is dealing with this. IMVHO, it is a huge negative. All but one second year bantam moved up. With what is left, we have to play Bantam B. We have a handful of first year bantams that should be playing Bantam A hockey that will now not develop as they should. None of the players that moved up will be top 6 forwards, top 4 D. Not sure if this was a player thing or a parent thing. Heard mention of lawsuits from parents if the coach didn't allow it. Really sad IMO.
What was the HS involvement with this decision (Did they want them to move up)? Also how did it affect numbers at the HS?

Every now and then I will see a Bantam player(parents) who has pushed the issue of moving up without an "invitation" from the HS program. If the kid is that good the coach would invite them as the recommendation is that kids finish out Bantam eligibility (with some exceptions for sophomores to play with grade level). While I don't think the HS can restrict HS age players for trying out, it is certainly not in their best interest to challenge a coach's wishes. "Hey kid, we think you are a really good player and we are looking forward to having you in the High School program...next year. It is better for you to be a first liner of the bantam A team than to sit 3rd or 4th line JV."
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

The Exiled One
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by The Exiled One » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:26 pm

Mite-dad wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:38 pm
Heard mention of lawsuits from parents if the coach didn't allow it.
Yeah, that's a legal landmine. The high school coaches (public and private) have a lot of leeway as to whom they keep/cut and award playing time to. I've seen associations threaten to blacklist or cut kids for trying out for HS teams, but I've never seen the threat carried out. Seems like the HS coach has the most power. Kids would be wise to take their advice first.

As for associations trying to fight off HS coaches pillaging their 9th graders... good luck with that. The best thing you can do is make a case on your merits. (Make it as cheap as possible, play more games, competitive, etc.) However, public HS coaches should also be thinking about not making enemies with their feeder system though. Private school coaches, of course, don't give a rat's butt about the pipeline.

Mite-dad
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Mite-dad » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:43 pm

Honestly I think the HS coach would rather the kids stay at bantams unless they are exceptional kids. None of these kids are (IMO) exceptional at this point in their careers, and I doubt the coach thinks so either. And we're not talking about just 9th graders and 10th graders. There are a couple 8th graders moving up. I honestly think the HS coach is sick of fighting the parents on the issue so just lets it fly.

Section 8 guy
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:05 pm

Agree completely that there is no one size fits all answer. But I do think, like with leaving high school early, that there are far more people that think they should than there are people that actually should.

goldy313
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by goldy313 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:08 am

1/10th the overall cost in high school.
No 9:00 pm games on a Wednesday night two hours away from home.
The school gets you to and from away games.

Of course this all depends on your individual school district but for me high school was a far and away better alternative to youth hockey.

thewhalers
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by thewhalers » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:27 am

goldy313 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:08 am
1/10th the overall cost in high school.
No 9:00 pm games on a Wednesday night two hours away from home.
The school gets you to and from away games.

Of course this all depends on your individual school district but for me high school was a far and away better alternative to youth hockey.
Nowadays, HS is probably more like 50% cheaper and the season is about 1 month shorter. Lots of fundraising! Your mileage may vary.

BP
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Re: Bantams vs. High School

Post by BP » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:30 am

My thought is every single situation/kid is different in regards to the association they are in, what kind of bantam team you are on, what the HS team's look like, times of games/practices, size/strength of the kid, cost/travel, kid mature enough to be around HS kids, etc. Lots of variables and again each kid is different. Sometimes JV is a way better option than Bantams if that Bantam A team is awful, culture is bad, coaching is bad, etc. But - it's also can be a great year for the kid to be a leader, score a ton of goals and dominate, gain confidence, be on the ice a ton for PP/PK, etc.

One thing people also need to consider is there are a ton of options for fall and spring hockey now with HP, BEL, AAA, etc. The kids can get more enough games if you combine that with a HS season. Say 20-30 games in fall, plus 25 HS games - that puts you at that 45-55 game spot. And I agree - a HS practice is a lot faster and daily development is important - isn't all about games. But that said - the kid needs to be physically ready for that next level.

What I am getting at - just need to assess every kid's situation - there isn't one size fits all.

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