State Tournament Seeding

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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MNHockeyFan
Posts: 6887
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm

State Tournament Seeding

Post by MNHockeyFan » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:00 pm

Here is how the two tournaments would be seeded IF they were based on their QRF rankings as of today:

Class A
1. Breck
2. Warroad
3. Cloquet-Esko-Carlton
4. South St. Paul
5. Rochester Lourdes

Unseeded - Random Draw
Hutchinson
Willmar
Luverne


Class AA
1. Edina
2. Andover
3. Minnetonka
4. Maple Grove
5. Roseau

Unseeded - Random Draw
Farminton
Burnsville
Hill-Murray

What changes might be expected when they are officially announced?

Joe2015
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Joe2015 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:05 am

Brackets are out: only thing switched was Hill-Murray is #5 in Class AA instead of Roseau

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

moosepaw
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by moosepaw » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:34 pm

Burnsville and Farmington are renting a bus by the hour, they will be home by 3 on Friday.

hockeychopper
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:22 am

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by hockeychopper » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:45 pm

Maybe so but their at the big dance!!!

nu2hockey
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by nu2hockey » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 pm

Joe2015 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:05 am
Brackets are out: only thing switched was Hill-Murray is #5 in Class AA instead of Roseau

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
These seedings feel dead on target...here's to a fun tourney! Good luck to all.

Green and White Fan
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:51 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Green and White Fan » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:51 am

I am curious as to why the seeding went exactly with QRF ranks, that is until Roseau. Roseau is the only team that got seeded behind someone with a lower QRF, in either class. Smells a little!!
We've got 7 yes we do, we've got 7, how about you!

Sparlimb
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:11 am

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Sparlimb » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:25 am

Green and White Fan wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:51 am
I am curious as to why the seeding went exactly with QRF ranks, that is until Roseau. Roseau is the only team that got seeded behind someone with a lower QRF, in either class. Smells a little!!
Probably came down to strength of schedule. Roseau played as good a non-conference schedule as they could, but they do end up playing a lot of teams up north that appear to be easy wins. HM plays as tough a schedule as anyone and did manage to beat Andover, which isn't an easy task. Neither have an easy first round game. In fact, both play teams they've lost to previously. And even if either wins, they'll face a top squad in the semi's. Good luck to both.

Green and White Fan
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Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Green and White Fan » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:00 pm

The KRACH ranking takes into account strength of schedule and Roseau is ranked 3 ahead of Hill Murray. Roseau with a 301 score and Hill with a 191. A little Metro bias seems to be in place once again.
We've got 7 yes we do, we've got 7, how about you!

Eagles93
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:12 pm

Green and White Fan wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:00 pm
The KRACH ranking takes into account strength of schedule and Roseau is ranked 3 ahead of Hill Murray. Roseau with a 301 score and Hill with a 191. A little Metro bias seems to be in place once again.
You are looking at KRACH rankings from last year. This year, Hill-Murray is ahead of Roseau, below are all of the AA tourney teams rankings as of Feb 1. If using KRACH, you could say Roseau lucked out by drawing Minnetonka rather than Edina or Andover.

Code: Select all

Rank [-----------Team---------------] State   League   Sec       Class        KRACH_Rating               SOS         WL_Ratio   (WW-LL-TT)
---- -------------------------------- ----- ---------- ---  -------------  ---------------  ---------------- ----------------   ----------
   1                            Edina    MN      MNHSL   6            AA          50146.02          2023.83            24.78    (24- 1- 0)
   2                          Andover    MN      MNHSL   7            AA          15522.04          1362.40            11.39    (22- 2- 0)
   4                       Minnetonka    MN      MNHSL   2            AA           4229.23          1496.62             2.83    (17- 6- 1)
   5                       MapleGrove    MN      MNHSL   5            AA           3112.63          1046.74             2.97    (18- 6- 1)
  11                      Hill-Murray    MN      MNHSL   4            AA            696.16           407.16             1.71    (15- 9- 1)
  16                       Farmington    MN      MNHSL   1            AA            363.21           232.46             1.56    (15-10- 0)
  20                       Burnsville    MN      MNHSL   3            AA            320.67           147.00             2.18    (16- 7- 2)
  21                           Roseau    MN      MNHSL   8            AA            313.28           102.90             3.04    (17- 5- 2)
Last edited by Eagles93 on Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eagles93
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:19 pm

Below are the class A teams. Both classes seeded the teams in line with the KRACH ratings. They both swayed a bit from the QRF rankings.

Code: Select all

Rank [-----------Team---------------] State   League   Sec       Class        KRACH_Rating               SOS         WL_Ratio   (WW-LL-TT)
---- -------------------------------- ----- ---------- ---  -------------  ---------------  ---------------- ----------------   ----------
   6                            Breck    MN      MNHSL   5             A           2401.37           728.50             3.30    (19- 6- 0)
  24                          Warroad    MN      MNHSL   8             A            217.40            46.21             4.70    (18- 3- 2)
  28             Cloquet-Esko-Carlton    MN      MNHSL   7             A            164.95            25.76             6.40    (20- 3- 0)
  35                      SouthStPaul    MN      MNHSL   4             A             65.27            29.66             2.20    (16- 7- 1)
  42                 RochesterLourdes    MN      MNHSL   1             A             27.50            16.46             1.67    (15- 9- 0)
  60                       Hutchinson    MN      MNHSL   2             A            0.6748             0.28             2.45    (18- 7- 0)
  67                          Willmar    MN      MNHSL   6             A            0.3177             0.17             1.87    (16- 8- 1)
  70                          Luverne    MN      MNHSL   3             A            0.1882             0.04             4.46    (20- 4- 0)

Green and White Fan
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:51 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Green and White Fan » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:27 pm

I just realized when one is making an argument, I should use data from the present year. My bad! Using my own argument then, the seedings are as they should be. I should have stuck with the QRF argument!
We've got 7 yes we do, we've got 7, how about you!

Green and White Fan
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:51 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Green and White Fan » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:28 pm

You could say Hill Murray lucked out too then!
We've got 7 yes we do, we've got 7, how about you!

nu2hockey
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by nu2hockey » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:06 pm

Green and White Fan wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:28 pm
You could say Hill Murray lucked out too then!

?...

Since they seed 1-5, with 4 playing 5....

Eagles93
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:03 pm

nu2hockey wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:06 pm
Green and White Fan wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:28 pm
You could say Hill Murray lucked out too then!

?...

Since they seed 1-5, with 4 playing 5....
He's saying Hill Murray lucked out that they didn't base the seedings on QRF. If they did, Hill-Murray would've been in the draw for Edina/Andover/Tonka.

nu2hockey
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by nu2hockey » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:53 am

Eagles93 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:03 pm
nu2hockey wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:06 pm
Green and White Fan wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:28 pm
You could say Hill Murray lucked out too then!

?...

Since they seed 1-5, with 4 playing 5....
He's saying Hill Murray lucked out that they didn't base the seedings on QRF. If they did, Hill-Murray would've been in the draw for Edina/Andover/Tonka.

Now I get it....Why any league would use the QRF for seeding is beyond silly...it is the least reliable of the ranking formulas..

Green and White Fan
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:51 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Green and White Fan » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:58 pm

I agree that QRF stinks, but what also stinks is the seeding went exactly as QRF rankings in both classes with the exception of Hill Murray sliding ahead of Roseau.
We've got 7 yes we do, we've got 7, how about you!

Eagles93
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm

I hope Breck is proud of themselves tonight. What a disgrace. :roll:

massalsa
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Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:37 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by massalsa » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:17 pm

Eagles93 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm
I hope Breck is proud of themselves tonight. What a disgrace. :roll:
What can the players do in their situation? Their players are amazing. So talented and fun to watch. Not the players fault.

Darned if you do and darned if you dont move to AA. Reminds me of this thread:

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36208

Eagles93
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:45 pm

massalsa wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:17 pm
Eagles93 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm
I hope Breck is proud of themselves tonight. What a disgrace. :roll:
What can the players do in their situation? Their players are amazing. So talented and fun to watch. Not the players fault.

Darned if you do and darned if you dont move to AA. Reminds me of this thread:

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36208
How are they darned if they move to AA? Is the class A trophy that important to them? Yes, it's similar to Hermantown, but worse. Two-time defending champs, they lead a team in the state tournament 8-0 in the 1st period, then proceed to not shoot the puck on net for the rest of the game. If that happens in class AA, so be it, but there's an easy solution if it repeatedly happens in class A.

They played 15 regular season games against AA teams, including 5 against teams in the AA state tournament.

I'm certainly not blaming the girls at all. I'm blaming the athletic director or whomever the decision falls on at Breck.

Thoen88
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Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Thoen88 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:15 am

This isn't rocket surgery. Either the MSHSL finally wises up and states that no private schools will play class A hockey. Or, if you want to let private schools play class A hockey, then those schools cannot play class AA teams during the regular season unless it's a conference game or in a holiday tournament.

This is not coming from some anti-private school angle. Both my son (graduated) and daughter (sophomore) play(ed) at BSM. Agree with the last sentence below. You don't blame the athletes, but...what a shock, you look toward the adults.


[/quote]
How are they darned if they move to AA? Is the class A trophy that important to them? Yes, it's similar to Hermantown, but worse. Two-time defending champs, they lead a team in the state tournament 8-0 in the 1st period, then proceed to not shoot the puck on net for the rest of the game. If that happens in class AA, so be it, but there's an easy solution if it repeatedly happens in class A.

They played 15 regular season games against AA teams, including 5 against teams in the AA state tournament.

I'm certainly not blaming the girls at all. I'm blaming the athletic director or whomever the decision falls on at Breck.
[/quote]

jg2112
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Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by jg2112 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:44 am

Just put the 11-12 private schools into their own tournament. They play by their own rules with regard to recruiting and player movement.

Might as well throw Edina in there as well, since they are getting annual Selects Academy upperclass recruits too.

Eagles93
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:34 am

Thoen88 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:15 am
Or, if you want to let private schools play class A hockey, then those schools cannot play class AA teams during the regular season unless it's a conference game or in a holiday tournament.
I agree this is the most logical way of handling it. I don't like the idea of forcing all privates to AA or their own section/class/tournament. Some privates are perfectly fine (and are competitive) in A. Ultimately I wish we wouldn't need oversight and rules for someone to do the right thing. Blake, CDH, BSM get it and do the right thing. Don't hide behind a technicality based on your enrollment and let the Luvernes and Willmars and Hutchinsons have a chance to succeed in a system that was designed for schools like them.

bodyup88
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Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by bodyup88 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:06 pm

I'll say it again: what motivation does Breck have to move to AA when they'll be placed in a section with Edina, Blake, Wayzata and BSM?
Get rid of the arbitrary, outdated "sections" and have a true seeded tournament. You'll have a much greater probability of getting Breck to AA and you'll have a better product at Xcel every February.

Lake South Alum
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Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Lake South Alum » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:53 pm

I would argue that Luverne probably shouldn't be in the tournament in the first place.

Are they a "top 10" Class A team? or even a top 20?

I think they should do away with Sections and have the teams qualify for State based on a seeded regional format.

Even with the privates in Class A, you could have a real competitive Class A tournament if you had 8 deserving teams in it.

Eagles93
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: State Tournament Seeding

Post by Eagles93 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:59 pm

There are certainly some tweaks the MSHSL could make for girls hockey but section placement is a red herring. As I said, their motivation should be to do the right thing. Is there a girls HS hockey fan out there right now actually impressed with Breck on their way to a 3rd straight class A title? I'd be a lot more impressed if they battled Blake/BSM/Wayzata/Edina tough in the class AA sections than steamrolling six class A opponents that are all small communities that in many cases don't even field two 10U/12U teams. And certainly don't draw (ahem, recruit) girls from other metro power programs.

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