7AA Goalies

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alcloseshaver
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7AA Goalies

Post by alcloseshaver » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:14 pm

Looks like the best 2 goalies in the Elite League play in 7AA.
Shepard GR 51 saves and Berglove ER 53 saves today.

ShootNScore88
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Post by ShootNScore88 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:27 pm

Sounds more like two goalies who need to learn to control their rebounds better.

koolio
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Post by koolio » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:33 pm

Without question, two very good goalies.

alcloseshaver
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Post by alcloseshaver » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:34 am

Shoot, Have you seen a game? not exactly a league where goalies get much help. Offense first.

Scout716
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Post by Scout716 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:33 am

Most your starting goalies in high school hockey are "good" The goalies that advance are the once who poses Great Skills, mental toughness, and great attitudes towards acheiving results. I have found that many of the MN high school goalies that recieve higher ranks then others, also have a stronger Defense group in front of them eliminating shots in the high scoring area's as well as eliminating many 2nd chance opportunity caused by rebounds.
Its very interesting talking to the Guys that scout Goalies. they see the game different then the rest of us.

the_juiceman
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Post by the_juiceman » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:53 am

my son will be playing HS this year. After his summer HS tourney, the thing he mentioned is that there are a lot more blocked shots by the D at the HS level, compared to the Youth Level.

SidneysDogHouse
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Post by SidneysDogHouse » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:06 am

I think people in general look at goalies as being good if they make "huge" saves. More often than not, a goalie making those saves is way out of position, scouts see this...they also see how well they stay square to a shooter, trap the puck, control rebounds etc. I had a scout tell me his main focus was the number of pucks to the net after a rebound. Pretty much sets the good from the great. Watch Wilcox!

Of course being 6'3" helps some! But...to that point, how many tall goalies are really that good? They tend to be less athletic, and have a hard time staying square being that big. Too many tall goalies don't know how to play tall! Most of the big goalies in college and the pros are only mediocre. Onc exception will be Thatcher Demko at Boston College...probably the next great US goalie in the pros!

bardown27
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Post by bardown27 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:30 am

SidneysDogHouse wrote:I think people in general look at goalies as being good if they make "huge" saves. More often than not, a goalie making those saves is way out of position, scouts see this...they also see how well they stay square to a shooter, trap the puck, control rebounds etc. I had a scout tell me his main focus was the number of pucks to the net after a rebound. Pretty much sets the good from the great. Watch Wilcox!

Of course being 6'3" helps some! But...to that point, how many tall goalies are really that good? They tend to be less athletic, and have a hard time staying square being that big. Too many tall goalies don't know how to play tall! Most of the big goalies in college and the pros are only mediocre. Onc exception will be Thatcher Demko at Boston College...probably the next great US goalie in the pros!
I mean I wouldn't say Pekka Rinne is mediocre by any means, but that's just me :shock:

SidneysDogHouse
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Post by SidneysDogHouse » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:42 am

Normally, I would agree, but right now Rinne isn't exactly tearing it up. I know what you're saying...

SuperStar
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Post by SuperStar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:15 am

bardown27 wrote:
SidneysDogHouse wrote:I think people in general look at goalies as being good if they make "huge" saves. More often than not, a goalie making those saves is way out of position, scouts see this...they also see how well they stay square to a shooter, trap the puck, control rebounds etc. I had a scout tell me his main focus was the number of pucks to the net after a rebound. Pretty much sets the good from the great. Watch Wilcox!

Of course being 6'3" helps some! But...to that point, how many tall goalies are really that good? They tend to be less athletic, and have a hard time staying square being that big. Too many tall goalies don't know how to play tall! Most of the big goalies in college and the pros are only mediocre. Onc exception will be Thatcher Demko at Boston College...probably the next great US goalie in the pros!
I mean I wouldn't say Pekka Rinne is mediocre by any means, but that's just me :shock:
My thoughts and a different veiwpoint: I keep hearing about this argument where goalies who make highlight reel saves or "the big Save" are "Out of position"...Not sure If I buy that argument anymore...It seems to me that almost every NHL/Professional goalie would be "out of Position" when making some saves...

Would Broduer have been in the NHL for 18+ years now making crazy highlight reel "out of position" saves..? How about every goalie in the playoffs

Same can be said for Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek, Marc-Ander Fluery big name goalies who consistently come up with "out of position" big saves..

I think it's just more of a goalies style, athleticism and how the speed of the game has changed. That doesn't include all goalies..But I see a ton of "Big Saves" every time I watch ESPN or go to a game at the youth, High School, College level. Are all these guys out of position..?

I don't see the coaches pulling them and say, "Damn it kid, you made a couple great saves and won the game for us but you were out of position so we need to let you go..better luck somewhere else.."

SimplyPut
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Post by SimplyPut » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:05 am

This is a high school post so I am assuming we are relating this topic to high school goalies. The shots are more accurate, faster, more deceptive each level you climb. if a high school goalie struggles with over all positioning the next level will expose that even more. positioning and controlling rebounds are the 2 skills emphasized as a player moves up through the ranks. Goalie are not just "Puck stoppers" your top Goaltenders quarterback the defensive zone (for lack of better words) but you get my empasis.

Scout716
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Post by Scout716 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:08 am

The shots are more accurate, faster, more deceptive each level you climb. if a high school goalie struggles with over all positioning the next level will expose that even more. positioning and controlling rebounds are the 2 skills emphasized as a player moves up through the ranks. Goalie are not just "Puck stoppers" your top Goaltenders quarterback the defensive zone (for lack of better words) but you get my empasis.


100% Correct =D>

SuperStar
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Post by SuperStar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:32 am

SimplyPut wrote:This is a high school post so I am assuming we are relating this topic to high school goalies. The shots are more accurate, faster, more deceptive each level you climb. if a high school goalie struggles with over all positioning the next level will expose that even more. positioning and controlling rebounds are the 2 skills emphasized as a player moves up through the ranks. Goalie are not just "Puck stoppers" your top Goaltenders quarterback the defensive zone (for lack of better words) but you get my empasis.
Yeah, I get your emphasis. I am not talking about some kid who flops all over the place or struggles with his positioning and gets lucky in a couple games...

And I get that that proper positioning, sound fundamentals, rebound control and "quarterbacking" are skills of a good High School goalie, but I hear the argument way too often that if a goalie makes a few big saves throughout a game that he is somehow way out of position, especially on shots like breakaways, 2 on 1's , PK, ect..

My beef is when they make a "big save" who the hell cares what his positioning he is in (as long as most of his game in executed properly) - He made the save and a team wins....I don't see anything wrong with that.

I would rather WIN with that - than lose with a goalie who is a robot out there.

Even the good High School goalie and others get out of position and make the big save..And I think it will always happen that way, but to minimize the big save by saying they were out of position or shouldn't have done that is not something I agree with.

Scout716
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Post by Scout716 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:38 am

I agree with you. the job discription of a goalie is to keep the puck out of the net. Plain and simple. how he does it is up to the goalie and their style. We've all seen higher level goalies (even NHL"rs) that have an unusual style yet are still effective. Yet as this game continues to evolve and the stats and studies (and the money offered) become closer looked at, its easier to bet your money on the higher percentages of position play.

SuperStar
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Post by SuperStar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:02 am

Scout716 wrote:I agree with you. the job discription of a goalie is to keep the puck out of the net. Plain and simple. how he does it is up to the goalie and their style. We've all seen higher level goalies (even NHL"rs) that have an unusual style yet are still effective. Yet as this game continues to evolve and the stats and studies (and the money offered) become closer looked at, its easier to bet your money on the higher percentages of position play.
So as the game evolves your wanting robot style, safe, proper form play and try and take out all excitement?

It won't be as exciting in my opinion. Excitement, big plays & winning sell and they SELL big! And I hope as the game evolves that it never goes away..

Matter of fact I want more of the "big out of position goalie glove saves" or the crazy upside down "Broduer" leg blocker save rolling across the crease saves.. It's awesome!

Would basketball be fun to watch without the Slam Dunk or alley-oops
Would car racing be as fun to watch with out some crashes
Would baseball be as fun watch without wild double or tripleplays
Would MMA fighting be as fun to watch without crazy knockouts - NO - thats why regular wrestling isn't that popular (even thought I like wrestling)

Roy01
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Post by Roy01 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:08 pm

SuperStar wrote:
Scout716 wrote:I agree with you. the job discription of a goalie is to keep the puck out of the net. Plain and simple. how he does it is up to the goalie and their style. We've all seen higher level goalies (even NHL"rs) that have an unusual style yet are still effective. Yet as this game continues to evolve and the stats and studies (and the money offered) become closer looked at, its easier to bet your money on the higher percentages of position play.
So as the game evolves your wanting robot style, safe, proper form play and try and take out all excitement?

It won't be as exciting in my opinion. Excitement, big plays & winning sell and they SELL big! And I hope as the game evolves that it never goes away..

Matter of fact I want more of the "big out of position goalie glove saves" or the crazy upside down "Broduer" leg blocker save rolling across the crease saves.. It's awesome!

Would basketball be fun to watch without the Slam Dunk or alley-oops
Would car racing be as fun to watch with out some crashes
Would baseball be as fun watch without wild double or tripleplays
Would MMA fighting be as fun to watch without crazy knockouts - NO - thats why regular wrestling isn't that popular (even thought I like wrestling)
As a goaltender, I'd rather see someone "robotic" playing if it keeps the puck out of the net. That's what your job is to do. The flashy saves will come so long as the goalie will see odd-man situation in game play. The BIG saves will come regardless. The puck bounces in an errant manner - it's a guarantee.

I was fortunate enough when I was in high school to attend two of the Dave Peterson Camp's and the final day there, both years, we practiced these "scramble saves." There were athletic goaltenders and more positional goaltenders; most of the well-positioned goaltenders did not do very well with the drill. I had some difficulty with it myself and I greatly attributed it to the fact that you shouldn't be in those situations where you're caught out of position (very often at least) if your positioning is set well.

By no means were any of the goaltenders at this camp bad, but some struggled in this spot. Granted, the "big save" is always going to be much more of an impulse reaction, but I (personally) feel the less a goalie needs to make that save the better off they are and the are likely demonstrating better positioning technique.

Also, look at a goalie like Robb Stauber - he played an aggressive style, but now in his teaching it is very positional. His philosophy is very much "if you are positioned properly for the shot you will make the save." In that, it doesn't mean over compensate on outside angles and find yourself diving back to the net. Too often that happens and, while it looks great on a highlight reel, it isn't practical.

Lastly, I think there should be a distinction between the ability to make the big save and the quantity of which a goalie needs to make the big save. As a goalie, you will probably have two major stops a game, maybe four or five against a mismatched opponent. If I watch a goalie play level competition and need to make a routine scramble across the net to dive and stop the puck it isn't going to be appealing.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:01 pm

I'm not a goalie expert but I would think if they continue to legislate narrower pads the position will require more athleticism than when the pads themselves took up more of the net, leaving less to shoot at.

sticksave
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Athletic goalies

Post by sticksave » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:00 pm

Those of you who are talking about athletic stops being less important than positioning. Who are you kidding? The speed of this game is so fast now that no matter how much the kid pays attention to where he is in the net he's one pass away from not being in the right spot. The kid that can get across and make that dynamic glove or pad save is the kid that is going to move on. If positioning was the answer, every high school football tackle would be a goalie. Their size and space they take up would be the key to goal tending right???Its speed and athleticism that's important and any one that thinks positioning is the key. Get in that net just once>>>>> :D

SuperStar
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Re: Athletic goalies

Post by SuperStar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:47 am

sticksave wrote:Those of you who are talking about athletic stops being less important than positioning. Who are you kidding? The speed of this game is so fast now that no matter how much the kid pays attention to where he is in the net he's one pass away from not being in the right spot. The kid that can get across and make that dynamic glove or pad save is the kid that is going to move on. If positioning was the answer, every high school football tackle would be a goalie. Their size and space they take up would be the key to goal tending right???Its speed and athleticism that's important and any one that thinks positioning is the key. Get in that net just once>>>>> :D


Agreed!

Check out the video - all these goalies should be benched for being out of position!
:roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1lr-9Gren0&noredirect=1

sticksave
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Post by sticksave » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:10 pm

WOW
That was a great video. Thanks Super Star for backing me on this.
Yes the basics of being in position are important but as that video showed the raw instincts these guys develop are what make great goalies. Given the snipers we have today a goalie in perfect position doesn't stand a chance if he doesn't have what those goalies in the video have.[/b]

alcloseshaver
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Post by alcloseshaver » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:33 pm

Not sure if you would classify them as position goalies or floppers but as the original post shows both Shepard and Berglove made the cut for the NIT this weekend at New Hope vs Mich, Mass, Shattuck and NY teams.

Roy01
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Post by Roy01 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:23 pm

There is no question athleticism is a large part of it, but even if you watch that video many of those saves are necessary due to poor recovery (wrong leg) and lack-thereof pivoting. They ultimately stop the puck, but being an efficient goaltender requires covering the most ground and net with the least movement necessary. Not diving across the crease.

The primary reason goaltenders are scored on at the youth level is because their feet are moving while the shot is taken. How do we try to limit that movement? By establishing proper position, stance, and save fundamentals. When we teach goaltenders, do we give them drills to practice saves in the proper position, or do we teach them to dive across the net. Should I say "Dive!" or "Pivot and butterfly slide/extended leg to the far post. "If a situation requires it, they'll do the athletic save instinctively. You cannot teach that. It should not be something that is a major focus of teaching because 1. it seldom happens, and 2. those saves are typically "flopping."

I can stand a goalie on the goal line of a 6' x 4' net an say "stop the puck" but they are going to use more energy because the save requires more movement, and potentially that "athletic" save. OR I can move them to the top of the crease, shrink the net from angles to 5' x 3' and have them do the same and 1. use less energy, and 2. look more efficient in their form, saves, and positioning.

I mentioned it in an earlier post but often in the youth levels we see goaltenders over compensate the angle and position on the off angle. If you stand on the arc of the crease at a 45/135 degree angle the net shrinks to 3' x 3'. Leg pads alone take up 2/3 the space. But I feel as though you're saying if they over commit on the play but make the diving save that somehow negates the cause being his/her poor positioning? Ultimately they stop the puck, but we don't want to teach young players poor habits.

That is why we have goaltenders practice their V, W, X, Y, and Z drills. This is why we teach them positioning, stance and angles. Think of it as a machine - we want to maximize efficiency. In saying that, we as coaches aim to receive the best result by having our goaltender use the least amount of energy. Energy use is lessened by reducing unnecessary movements, like diving across the crease routinely.

I assume with a name like "sticksave" you are/were a goaltender, so I'm having some difficulty understanding where you see athleticism being the primary focus in their teaching rather than their fundamentals...

Scout716
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Post by Scout716 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:49 pm

So i think we can all agree we need goalies in "position" and we need them to be "athletic" Some Section7AA goalies have one and not the other? but the elite goalies in section7AA have a combination of both?

SuperStar
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Post by SuperStar » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:24 pm

Of course proper training on positioning and fundamentals are keys to success, especially at the youth level - But if I had to pick between 2 solid goalies that have good fundamentals and (1) had good, solid positioning and (1) had decent to good positioning, but was more athletic? Hands down I would take the more athletic one. - Just a matter of opinion I guess..

Anyways -Congrats to both Shepard and Berglove on making the NIT team. Good Luck..!

sticksave
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Post by sticksave » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:18 pm

[
ven if you watch that video many of those saves are necessary due to poor recovery (wrong leg) and lack-thereof pivoting. They ultimately stop the puck, but being an efficient goaltender requires covering the most ground and net with the least movement necessary. Not diving across the crease.

The primary reason goaltenders are scored on at the youth level is because their feet are moving while the shot is taken. How do we try to limit that movement? By establishing proper position, stance, and save fundamentals. When we teach goaltenders, do we give them drills to practice saves in the proper position, or do we teach them to dive across the net. Should I say "Dive!" or "Pivot and butterfly slide/extended leg to the far post. "If a situation requires it, they'll do the athletic save instinctively. You cannot teach that. It should not be something that is a major focus of teaching because 1. it seldom happens, and 2. those saves are typically "flopping."

I can stand a goalie on the goal line of a 6' x 4' net an say "stop the puck" but they are going to use more energy because the save requires more movement, and potentially that "athletic" save. OR I can move them to the top of the crease, shrink the net from angles to 5' x 3' and have them do the same and 1. use less energy, and 2. look more efficient in their form, saves, and positioning.

I mentioned it in an earlier post but often in the youth levels we see goaltenders over compensate the angle and position on the off angle. If you stand on the arc of the crease at a 45/135 degree angle the net shrinks to 3' x 3'. Leg pads alone take up 2/3 the space. But I feel as though you're saying if they over commit on the play but make the diving save that somehow negates the cause being his/her poor positioning? Ultimately they stop the puck, but we don't want to teach young players poor habits.

That is why we have goaltenders practice their V, W, X, Y, and Z drills. This is why we teach them positioning, stance and angles. Think of it as a machine - we want to maximize efficiency. In saying that, we as coaches aim to receive the best result by having our goaltender use the least amount of energy. Energy use is lessened by reducing unnecessary movements, like diving across the crease routinely.

I assume with a name like "sticksave" you are/were a goaltender, so I'm having some difficulty understanding where you see athleticism being the primary focus in their teaching rather than their fundamentals...
I never said athleticism should be the primary point of their teaching. You Can't teach athleticism. What I was responding too was the way positioning is being passed as the way every kid can be a star goalie. Very few goalie coaches spend time on drills that focus on agility, eye hand coordination and conditioning. The reason is you can take any kid and if he knows positioning he'll stop some pucks and its easy to show improvement and that works at the lower levels before kids can shoot. The problem is they don't ever expand on it. The young goalie slides time and time again across the crease as the coach fires the puck the same way 20 times in a row. Or the coach blows the wistles and the goalie stops in the same place every time for 10 minutes. Yep they become robots. With today's snipers you have to come way out of the net to cut those angles. If you watch today's best goalies they are way beyond the crease to stop those shots. Something you would call out of position. Hey any top level high school forward can hit a pie tin at 30 feet. Using your math the goalie in the proper position still has a hole that 3 square feet, 3 times the size of a pie tin. To take that away the goalie comes out further. That's what you call out of position. As the sticks have gotten better, the pads are getting smaller, the shooters better, the best goalies are out further and must be quicker and make trickier saves to be the best. Athleticism will be the new focus. The goalies that stay back and in "position" as you would have them are easy pickings for the better shooters. The kid that come out and then can get back will be the star. If that looks like a waist of energy to you or inefficient well.... sorry but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :D

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