Can someone please help me?

[hockey????]

I am trying to figure out hockey for over 20 years and I am stumped. What are they looking for? Why is it so political? Why do girls that are better than others overlooked? Please explain the game that is being played off the ice to me? Thanks

[MNHockeyFan]

I am trying to figure out hockey for over 20 years and I am stumped. What are they looking for? Why is it so political? Why do girls that are better than others overlooked? Please explain the game that is being played off the ice to me? Thanks

You might want to explain who you mean by "they", and what exactly you are are referring to...

[hockey????]

Where do I start, MN Hockey, USA Hockey, NDP evaluators and everyone involved, National U18 Coaches and all involved, High School Coaches, basicallyy everyone involved. It is the good old boys club. If you don't play the suck up game you are screwed.

[hockey????]

Well the silence tells it all, everything I said is true.

[Cabela10]

Did your kid get overlooked. You poor parent. Go cry to your unsupportive husband.

[xwildfan]

I am trying to figure out hockey for over 20 years and I am stumped. What are they looking for? Why is it so political? Why do girls that are better than others overlooked? Please explain the game that is being played off the ice to me? Thanks

Are we talking about the same USA Coaches that picked the team that beat Canada for the World title?

Are we talking about the EP or Alexandria coaches who picked the teams that just won state titles?

Are we talking about the All Metro team that all but one player's team happened to make it to the State Tourney?

Are we talking about college coaches who determine who get scholarships and therefore whose jobs depend on these scholarship players?

I guess I need more specifics about this good old boys club to be convinced of its existence.

The good old boys club really can't be very old since girls hockey has only been around for thirteen or so years.

I know of at least one player who received many honors this year and whose parents never sucked up to anyone; never was on the "correct AAA team"; never contacted anyone from USA, MN Hockey, NDC people, etc. I am sure there are more out there who didn't play the "suck-up game."

[allhoc11]

Well the silence tells it all, everything I said is true.

Silence, you posted in the middle of the night, who were you expecting to answer you? Xwild great post, hoc??? I guess we'll need you to be more specific if we are going to give you a quality answer, otherwise take your pity party somewhere else.

[Joey (nine toes) Marcoux]

Well the silence says it all.

[finance_gal]

I can explain it to you... Part of the beauty of Hockey is also it's curse. It's such a complex game that some coaches totally understand but most only understand some of it (esspecially in the girls game). Someone may be a 20 goal scorer and did nothing but stand at center ice waiting for the puck yet people will say she's an awesome player, maybe another girl is a great back checker, gets very few goals but gets the puck out of the zone and prevents many goals, she dosen't stand out as much especcially to an inexperianced coach. She is every bit as valuable as the first player but dosen't get noticed becuase the fans aren't ranting about her. It's a very poor coach that allows this to happen and his teams will always be a little soft because of it.

Sucking up is how coaches who have little else to go on get to know a girl, I don't like it, but some coaches see it as a girl they can work with because she comes in and talks to him. In reality the girl that goes in and sucks up is most often the one that is bad mouthing the coach behind his back. ( a true friend will stab you in the front)

We've found that as the players get out the high school program sucking up becomes less effective for the girls because you have better coaching, who know exactly what their looking for in players. Girls that suck up are just waisting a good coaches time and he knows it.

[mnhcp]

I can explain it to you... Part of the beauty of Hockey is also it's curse. It's such a complex game that some coaches totally understand but most only understand some of it (esspecially in the girls game). Someone may be a 20 goal scorer and did nothing but stand at center ice waiting for the puck yet people will say she's an awesome player, maybe another girl is a great back checker, gets very few goals but gets the puck out of the zone and prevents many goals, she dosen't stand out as much especcially to an inexperianced coach. She is every bit as valuable as the first player but dosen't get noticed becuase the fans aren't ranting about her. It's a very poor coach that allows this to happen and his teams will always be a little soft because of it.

Sucking up is how coaches who have little else to go on get to know a girl, I don't like it, but some coaches see it as a girl they can work with because she comes in and talks to him. In reality the girl that goes in and sucks up is most often the one that is bad mouthing the coach behind his back. ( a true friend will stab you in the front)

We've found that as the players get out the high school program sucking up becomes less effective for the girls because you have better coaching, who know exactly what their looking for in players. Girls that suck up are just waisting a good coaches time and he knows it.

Your message is beautiful! (not the sucking up part but inexperienced coaches analysis of talent)

[PuxRinmyblood]

I do not 100% agree with finance gal, although I think she has a few good points. From past postings, it would appear that she has had a rather negative experience with her daughter's coaches in the past.....since I couldn't possibly know any of the details, I won't argue about any of this or disrespect her views in this matter.

That said, I can say with confidence that most coaches at the HS level want (and are expected) to win games, and will play the kids that will help make this happen. Characteristics of "coaches favorites" generally include a strong work ethic, willingness to learn/adapt to systems of play, the ability to make other players around them better, "hockey sense", a team-first attitude, and of course, a high level of skill at playing the game.

Not everybody has all of these traits. Some kids are very strong in some of these areas, which overcome their other weaknesses. However,some kids just don't have enough of any of these traits, which makes it difficult for them to compete. Herein lies the difficulty. Parents (who of course love their children and want to see them succeed at their dreams) don't always see or understand this.

[finance_gal]

True I have had some problems with this years hockey coach, I have also had some very good experiances with hockey coaches. I think this is what makes me uniquely qualified to answer the above question, because I have seen both sides.

You may not agree 100% with my answer but you have offered very little of an answer of your own other than all coaches are fair, so I figure that you must be a hockey coach which is great. I admire alot of what hockey coaches do, but from what I have seen of most coaches in the girls game is that the very best are awesome but most of them are not very good, have limited hockey knowledge or arn't good teachers. Thus you have the same 16 teams vying for 8 spots in the state tournament every year with a rare team sneaking in from outside that group, and when a good coach moves on, the new team he coaches is suddenly pretty good (coincidence?).

I addressed the question of why hockey is so political, I addressed it honestly and openly from my experiances and from my childrens experiances and this is what PuxRinmyblood fails to take into account is that nearly everyone associated with hockey, with the exception of coaches, admits that hockey is political. Whether this is true or not, the perception is there and coaches that don't address this, and just toss kids aside as complainers when they raise concerns are just perpetuating the image that the only way to get ahead in hockey is to suck up.

[PuxRinmyblood]

I was not attempting to offer an "answer", merely some perspective.

Note that at no time did I say that "all coaches are fair." I've seen very good people and horrible people in this game (coaches, administrators, and parents alike), and I'm sure that there are coaches out there who shouldn't be training dogs, much less children. Hell, I've encountered a few. Are there "politics" involved in hockey? In every other sport for that matter? Sure there are.

That doesn't mean that all coaches are out to screw kids over. Most that I know sincerely want to teach kids and win games.

I do coach, and have for years. I have always tried to be fair, in that everyone has a chance to work hard, improve and play, if they can help the team. Not everyone agrees with my decisions, and the decisions of my/our staff. On occasion (and by no means in all cases) those dissatisfied with the lot of their children have labeled these decisions as "political". I have come to the conclusion that if you coach this game, there is NO way to please everybody.

In addition, I will state that most parents are pretty easy to deal with if you work with them honestly. I will however, offer the opinion that there are many who cry "politics!" whenever things don't go precisely as they would like.

Don't know what else to tell you.

[hockeyrube7]

I hate to tell you PUX, but I believe Fin-gal has it more right than you. Even if it comes from a past experience. There are many "politics" in the game, way too many for any to believe. And you obviously coach HS hockey so you are too close to admit it, but "favorites" play in to this as well. I agree with Fin-Gal with most of what she says here. Too bad that many get missed for what are believed to be the best.

"Don't know what to tell you." This sounds like a coach who did what he felt was right, and is justifying it with this very comment. Sad to say, there are coaches who hold kids back. Some on purpose, some on ignorance, and things are sad in that way. When it comes down to it, do the right kids get there? For the most part yes, but there are those that get missed for what ever reason. And yes you can admit it, some times it is do to a coach, right or wrong. I am not saying that it is the coaches fault, just that they play a MAJOR part, so take some of the blame along with the glory.

[PuxRinmyblood]

Rube-

First, as noted previously, I sought only to provide some perspective. Note that my original post said that I did not agree 100% with finance gal's commentary, and that I felt she had a few good points.

Second, "Too bad that many get missed for what are believed to be the best". I would agree with this to a point.

Third, you have misinterpreted my closing comment of "Don't know what else to tell you". You seem to think that I am somehow trying to justify something. This is incorrect. What I meant to convey by this is that I do not think that there is anything else I could add to this discussion.

[finance_gal]

Rube, Thank you for the support. at the dinner table last night we talked about this a little bit and we asked our daughter for her opinion. She told us that hockey was such a mess this year because the coach was a control freak from day one.

During tryouts he put kids into groups only giving certain ones a chance to make the team (the groups never competed with each other)

The season was filled with manditory meetings and manditory parties that had nothing to do with hockey (she was doing her homework in the car every night because we wouldn't get home until after 8 most nights)

When she asked for help on things, the coach wasn't capable of teaching so he would just ignore her and worked with the kids told the coach how wonderful he was.

When she went to Total Hockey to get the extra help she wanted, she was told by the high school coaches she could get all the training she needed through the school program. and then they tried to kick her off the team because she continued to go to Total Hockey, and the Herb Brooks Center.

In the end, after she broke her collarbone in a game, the coaches told her she wasn't allowed to attend any functions as part of the team because she questioned rather than worshipped the new coaching staff.

Did politics have anything to do with our daughters hockey experiance? I'd say it did. Was it entirely the coaching staffs fault? Not entirely, but by giving the impression from the very start that the teams were preselected and following up with not supporting players who didn't suck up, they sent the message that what you say was more important than how you play.

[hockeyrube7]

Fin-gal, and that is just an abbreviation and not in any way an interpretation , I don't know that I have ever met you or not.

Of course there are politics. I think the larger problem stems from the fact that these coaches only spend a short time with these kids, and only have a short period in which to form an opinion. From what I have seen, they seem to take the first days impression and bare them upon the kids for the rest of the season, and rarely change. Could be wrong, but I have seen this in so many cases. First impressions seem to take hold in the HS game, both good and bad. I have seen some of the worst players, get the coaches blessing as it were, as they are good kids, get all the opportunities, and I have seen some of the best players get canned so to speak by the coach for what he sees as bad attitude. This can work in a positive way also, but have seen more negative effects than good, at least at the HS level, and depending on the coach. Over all, I do believe that the coaches believe that they are doing what is right, yet are not always right, but more not willing to admit being wrong some times. Again just my opinion, so take it for what you will.

Pux, sorry, life is where it is at, enjoy!

The unfortunate effect of all of this is, a kid is at the mercy of the coach, no matter what. And now unless you can get to know all the coaches involved, politics at the school, and know where your kid could end up by 8th grade or what 14 years old maybe, then they have to deal with what comes their way, or move. Just the way it is. So try to have fun with it, and enjoy it for what ever it is! Hockey is the greatest sport, and maybe just maybe it should be played on the ponds where it belongs, no parents, no coaches, just kids playing and showing off their stuff.

[Melvin44]

My opinion is that every coach sees a different game. Some see offense, some see defense, some see goaltending, and some see the whole game. Most every girl or boy is too afraid to ask a coach what he or she is doing right or wrong. Mankato camp was good at letting each player know what they need to work on and I wish all tryouts would do this.

My advice is to ask your coach/evaluator what needs to be done to play more or make a team. If your talking about NDP it states what they're looking for on the website.

Remember every evaluator sees things differently. Parents mostly watch only their child where evaluators have to watch all players. The only way to increase your chances is to try your best to be 95-100% at all times. Which is very difficult.

I’ll always tell my daughter 9 or 10 players stand out and then there are 20-35 players that coaches need to pick 8 to 10. Play your hardest and if you don't make it I'm still proud of you and there's always the next tryout. If you want it the next time work even harder.

[Hansonbrother]

My opinion is that every coach sees a different game. Some see offense, some see defense, some see goaltending, and some see the whole game. Most every girl or boy is too afraid to ask a coach what he or she is doing right or wrong. Mankato camp was good at letting each player know what they need to work on and I wish all tryouts would do this.

My advice is to ask your coach/evaluator what needs to be done to play more or make a team. If your talking about NDP it states what they're looking for on the website.

Remember every evaluator sees things differently. Parents mostly watch only their child where evaluators have to watch all players. The only way to increase your chances is to try your best to be 95-100% at all times. Which is very difficult.

I’ll always tell my daughter 9 or 10 players stand out and then there are 20-35 players that coaches need to pick 8 to 10. Play your hardest and if you don't make it I'm still proud of you and there's always the next tryout. If you want it the next time work even harder.

Very well said Mel, and the ones that actually put in the work and the effort are the ones that come off the bubble in the next tryout!

[4Real]

Melvin44
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject:
My opinion is that every coach sees a different game. Some see offense, some see defense, some see goaltending, and some see the whole game. Most every girl or boy is too afraid to ask a coach what he or she is doing right or wrong. Mankato camp was good at letting each player know what they need to work on and I wish all tryouts would do this.

My advice is to ask your coach/evaluator what needs to be done to play more or make a team. If your talking about NDP it states what they're looking for on the website.

Remember every evaluator sees things differently. Parents mostly watch only their child where evaluators have to watch all players. The only way to increase your chances is to try your best to be 95-100% at all times. Which is very difficult.

I’ll always tell my daughter 9 or 10 players stand out and then there are 20-35 players that coaches need to pick 8 to 10. Play your hardest and if you don't make it I'm still proud of you and there's always the next tryout. If you want it the next time work even harder.

Hansonbrother PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:53 pm
Very well said Mel, and the ones that actually put in the work and the effort are the ones that come off the bubble in the next tryout!

Amen! Your hard work will pay off!

[snake]

Why is it that these are the same parents and players that---

choose not to play any extra summer hockey, or choose to go to their cabins every weekend in the summer instead of playing in a hockey game, or simply do not put forth the effort and have an attitude (in front of their HS coaches) that mom and dad don't see--and totally expect to play on the HS Varsity team?

Other players choose the opposite...no weekends up north, no summer jobs, no sleeping in. The second group of players are the ones who "get it". They get the attention of their HS coaches for their dedication and sacrifices. These players do not need to "suck-up". They have put in their time and hard work pays off! Hockey season never ends and does not have a start date. HS coaches know what their girls are and are not doing in the "off-season."

One reason why we see the same 16 teams (generally) vying for 8 spots in the State Tournament every year has everything to do with their youth program. Look at White Bear, Centennial, Edina, Wayzata, Stillwater-just to name a few. These U12 and U14's who play in the youth state tournament every year are the same ones who play in the High School State Tournament. (generally and thank you to the youth coaches!)

I would suggest to "release" your daughter to her coach and consider the possiblity that when you are not watching her play (practice or games) that perhaps she is not the same person that you think she is. I am a believer that if you see a pattern begin to exist in either yourself or your player~than you know you have a personal issue.

One more thing...I work my butt off all year long, I have played in the U12, U14 and HS State Hockey Tournaments and I AM NOT A SUCK UP!

[oldhockey1]

I tend to agree with fin_gal.
Many times the HS coaches promote certain players.
At the college level the coaches need to win to keep their jobs. This is when some of the less marketed HS players really shine.

[finance_gal]

Why is it that these are the same parents and players that---

choose not to play any extra summer hockey, or choose to go to their cabins every weekend in the summer instead of playing in a hockey game, or simply do not put forth the effort and have an attitude (in front of their HS coaches) that mom and dad don't see--and totally expect to play on the HS Varsity team?

Other players choose the opposite...no weekends up north, no summer jobs, no sleeping in. The second group of players are the ones who "get it". They get the attention of their HS coaches for their dedication and sacrifices. These players do not need to "suck-up". They have put in their time and hard work pays off! Hockey season never ends and does not have a start date. HS coaches know what their girls are and are not doing in the "off-season."

One reason why we see the same 16 teams (generally) vying for 8 spots in the State Tournament every year has everything to do with their youth program. Look at White Bear, Centennial, Edina, Wayzata, Stillwater-just to name a few. These U12 and U14's who play in the youth state tournament every year are the same ones who play in the High School State Tournament. (generally and thank you to the youth coaches!)

I would suggest to "release" your daughter to her coach and consider the possiblity that when you are not watching her play (practice or games) that perhaps she is not the same person that you think she is. I am a believer that if you see a pattern begin to exist in either yourself or your player~than you know you have a personal issue.

One more thing...I work my butt off all year long, I have played in the U12, U14 and HS State Hockey Tournaments and I AM NOT A SUCK UP!

Our daughter played 43 games in the offseason last year, she attended acceleration east weekly, score 8 goals and had 29 assists for her offseason team, did STP training, and attended 2 camps. she has been at open hockey at 6 am every saturday morning for 2 years and her coaches have their team prepicked, including lines come tryout time? ...what more do you think she should do? Spend her afternoons visiting with the coaches to tell them how good she is? The girls that did that seemed to play alot and the ones that didn't were branded as not being team players.

The same teams go to the tournament because they have good coaching who are capable of teaching the players that want to get better. When asked they can tell a player what they need to work on and are not intimidated when a player goes to Total Hockey for extra help. Good coaches will consitantly win and fill all star teams with their players because those coaches work harder than their player to get better.

The coaches that are happy with an average season against very soft schedule are just plug and play coaches, (plug them in and let them play) they think their doing a good a job but don't even understand what that is. These coaches have a set idea of what they want from their teams and if it's not there they just claim they didn't have the players this year. They put in their hour at practice every night, talk development but refuse to teach development, and then leave before most of the players. The bad coaches will yell at the refs and give their teams excuses when they lose. These are the coaches who feel that getting respect is more important than giving it. and those coaches are losers no matter what their record at the hockey rink is.

[mnhcp]

My opinion is that every coach sees a different game. Some see offense, some see defense, some see goaltending, and some see the whole game. Most every girl or boy is too afraid to ask a coach what he or she is doing right or wrong. Mankato camp was good at letting each player know what they need to work on and I wish all tryouts would do this.

My advice is to ask your coach/evaluator what needs to be done to play more or make a team. If your talking about NDP it states what they're looking for on the website.

Remember every evaluator sees things differently. Parents mostly watch only their child where evaluators have to watch all players. The only way to increase your chances is to try your best to be 95-100% at all times. Which is very difficult.

I’ll always tell my daughter 9 or 10 players stand out and then there are 20-35 players that coaches need to pick 8 to 10. Play your hardest and if you don't make it I'm still proud of you and there's always the next tryout. If you want it the next time work even harder.

A play on Melvin44's quote:

Would this be a true statement, I think so?

Every coach sees a different game. Some see offense, some see defense, some see goaltending, and "the better coaches" see the whole game.

[Rentley]

Unfortunately, politics continues to play a role in all avenues of our lives, whether it's sports, band, or the debate team, and progresses into our adult lives in everything from perception, to promotions! My suggestion is to try and sit down with the coach or coaches, and be up front with them about the situation. Keep it specific about your child, and what she needs to do to put herself into the mix. Ask them for their "honest" opinion of your daughters ability.

The hardest part about this is that you may not hear what you want to hear. Their opinion of your daughter could be distinctively different than yours, or others. Ultimately, they are the coaches of the team, and have the right to play who they want, no matter what anyone thinks.

One other point is that you can put a kid in every camp or clinic possible, and they just may be one of those kids that no matter how much help you give them, are still an average player, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!! I know hundreds of kids that were or are average athletes who are some of the funnest people in the world to be involved with.

At least talking to them face to face, you should know where you stand, and whether or not they are just blowing smoke! It also could be that there are others that you may consider friends adding their own "influence" to the coaches, not necessarily in your daughters favor. Not saying that this is true in this instance, but it happens way more than you think! Good luck finance_gal!