are you crazy? no one would complain about mahtomedi. They're a public school, it doesn't matter where their players live, they're public which makes them better.
Mahtomedi Zephyrs(19-6-2) @ St Thomas Cadets(21-4-2) 3-6-09
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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HShockeywatcher
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fivehole628
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Mistah Hockey
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The only ignorant posters in this thread are the posters who don't realize how difficult it is for public school athletic teams (especially single A teams) to compete against schools who gain a competitive advange by being able to pull in athletes from sorrounding communities. I have no ill will towards the private school teams, but it is UNFAIR for the smaller schools no matter how you look at it. Since this thread happens to be targeting St. Thomas, I will use them as an example.
Posters on this thread justifying that St. thomas has only been good the past 4 years are blinded by the fact that this run began once the vanelli family took over the program. They are extremely competitive against AA teams with a very young roster excluding Ryan Walters who left the team (heck they beat Minnetonka who beat number one seeded Edina twice this season!!!!) They were also appointed to the GOLD schwan cup division, a division that collects the most competitive teams in the state. They will continue to be good for the next 4 years. The team itself has more division one prospects than almost every other AA team in the state. Their non starting goalie just commited to maine
When you have the best talent, you want to prove yourself against the best talent. It's very simple.
Of course... Mahtomedi totally just contradicted my argument right? oh wait... they just got lucky because they're goalie stopped 50 shots on goal.
Posters on this thread justifying that St. thomas has only been good the past 4 years are blinded by the fact that this run began once the vanelli family took over the program. They are extremely competitive against AA teams with a very young roster excluding Ryan Walters who left the team (heck they beat Minnetonka who beat number one seeded Edina twice this season!!!!) They were also appointed to the GOLD schwan cup division, a division that collects the most competitive teams in the state. They will continue to be good for the next 4 years. The team itself has more division one prospects than almost every other AA team in the state. Their non starting goalie just commited to maine
When you have the best talent, you want to prove yourself against the best talent. It's very simple.Of course... Mahtomedi totally just contradicted my argument right? oh wait... they just got lucky because they're goalie stopped 50 shots on goal.
Nor is it the case that any of these D1 prospects will continue to play at the school. they. Are. Going. To. Graduate. Please at least try to understand that.
It's kinda like saying, "omg Breck had Blake Wheeler and Peter Mueller therefore Breck should be in the NHL" eventhough those players no longer play for Breck.
This whole argument is retarded now. Why? because guess what. St. Thomas didn't make it to state, so you can stop crying about how they choose not to opt up just so they can win. They have to win in order to make that a valid argument.
It's kinda like saying, "omg Breck had Blake Wheeler and Peter Mueller therefore Breck should be in the NHL" eventhough those players no longer play for Breck.
This whole argument is retarded now. Why? because guess what. St. Thomas didn't make it to state, so you can stop crying about how they choose not to opt up just so they can win. They have to win in order to make that a valid argument.
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HShockeywatcher
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DotaDangler
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HShockeywatcher
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thestickler07
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Its really embarrassing to see the amount of crying, complaining, and victimization on both sides of this argument.
To St. Thomas: I'm a STA grad and I think its pathetic they don't opt up in everything. Raise your game and play at the highest level where all the glory is. That way when people hate you, and they will because you win, they will have one less excuse for their childish "woe is me we can't compete" quips. Overall, look at over private school's around the country, plenty of private schools opt up to the highest level of competition in their respective state association. Brophy in Arizona, Bellarmine, De La Salle, Loyola, Servite in California, Rockhurst in Missouri, Don Bosco in New Jersey, the list goes on, all single sex male schools that dominate in their states. Stop making excuses and chasing after trophies that aren't even the best ones in the state! Compete at the highest level of competition you can, what's the glory of beating South St. Paul when you could beat Edina? Mahtomedi when you could beat Jefferson? Let those small "has been" or "wanna be" schools have their JV tournament because they don't have the pride to opt up. And its funny because the administrators and parents don't have the expectations for their kids to let them play at the highest level, so pity them, don't play them. Simply put, the schools in the A tournament are below St. Thomas, and frankly the Cadets shouldn't lower themselves to play with the scrubs.
To the Publics: You can cry all you want about wanting Privates opting up, but if all the privates opted up the A tournament would be more of a joke than it already is. All you are doing by complaining about better teams winning all the time is wanting competition to be watered down so you have a better chance. St. Thomas is playing with the rules of the MSHSL and doing well, if you have that big of an issue petition the MSHSL with your grievances. Just because you aren't good enough, don't work hard enough, can't compete with better teams doesn't mean they cheat, because honestly, they don't. Recruiting anecdotes are adorable sob stories because you talk about home town pride, but if you really had pride you would sack up and play at the highest level if you believed in your players. But truth be told, most of these old powers don't have the pride anymore, and lowering expectations happens instead of increasing your level of play. Look at Simley in wrestling, it is PATHETIC that they went to AA but because the school and community has no pride in the program anymore, they accept less than what they are capable of.
Inequalities exist everywhere in life, especially athletics, and you can either make excuses or work harder. Unfortunately very few people take responsibility these days and put in the extra effort, and instead settle with crying and complaining until things get easier. Simply put, many publics are lazy and entitled, and St. Thomas and other privates are cowards and trophy chasers.
To St. Thomas: I'm a STA grad and I think its pathetic they don't opt up in everything. Raise your game and play at the highest level where all the glory is. That way when people hate you, and they will because you win, they will have one less excuse for their childish "woe is me we can't compete" quips. Overall, look at over private school's around the country, plenty of private schools opt up to the highest level of competition in their respective state association. Brophy in Arizona, Bellarmine, De La Salle, Loyola, Servite in California, Rockhurst in Missouri, Don Bosco in New Jersey, the list goes on, all single sex male schools that dominate in their states. Stop making excuses and chasing after trophies that aren't even the best ones in the state! Compete at the highest level of competition you can, what's the glory of beating South St. Paul when you could beat Edina? Mahtomedi when you could beat Jefferson? Let those small "has been" or "wanna be" schools have their JV tournament because they don't have the pride to opt up. And its funny because the administrators and parents don't have the expectations for their kids to let them play at the highest level, so pity them, don't play them. Simply put, the schools in the A tournament are below St. Thomas, and frankly the Cadets shouldn't lower themselves to play with the scrubs.
To the Publics: You can cry all you want about wanting Privates opting up, but if all the privates opted up the A tournament would be more of a joke than it already is. All you are doing by complaining about better teams winning all the time is wanting competition to be watered down so you have a better chance. St. Thomas is playing with the rules of the MSHSL and doing well, if you have that big of an issue petition the MSHSL with your grievances. Just because you aren't good enough, don't work hard enough, can't compete with better teams doesn't mean they cheat, because honestly, they don't. Recruiting anecdotes are adorable sob stories because you talk about home town pride, but if you really had pride you would sack up and play at the highest level if you believed in your players. But truth be told, most of these old powers don't have the pride anymore, and lowering expectations happens instead of increasing your level of play. Look at Simley in wrestling, it is PATHETIC that they went to AA but because the school and community has no pride in the program anymore, they accept less than what they are capable of.
Inequalities exist everywhere in life, especially athletics, and you can either make excuses or work harder. Unfortunately very few people take responsibility these days and put in the extra effort, and instead settle with crying and complaining until things get easier. Simply put, many publics are lazy and entitled, and St. Thomas and other privates are cowards and trophy chasers.
I'm not going to get into this public/private argument...just the "Which competitive school doesn't comment." Well i will tell you one...Hermantown!. They won the state tourney in 07 with ALL kids that grew up playing since mites...and no matter how well or poor they do this is the way it is. This years roster or the top players is the roster from squirt A's...PeeWee A's...and Bantam A's the only names that are on the HS roster this year that are not on the A's rosters over the years played B's at Hermantown and i would say they are a "competitive" team!!! And we are probably the only school in the area that has NEVER lost a player to Marshall!! Says something for the program and the loyalty!adamp1914 wrote:You have to be kidding me...
"wah wah wah STA stays class A so they can win they should be AA wah wah"
Then they lose... And people are still trying to argue this? Jeez... get over it. There's absolutely no reason at all for them to be AA. They've been good for like what, 4 our of the last 6 years and that's it? So what? That's not enough proven dominance to move up.
"wah but they recruit from all over"
Which competitive school doesn't? and actually, most of the kids that go to St. Thomas or Cretin get fed to those schools through the Highland youth programs.
God.. If Mahtomedi pulls some more upsets and wins state, then next year they win again, people are going to start crying about them too. You idiots need to realize something. Kids graduate. 4 years of being extremely competitive doesn't mean that a team will continue to dominate a class indefinitely. It's not like they are always going to have better players than other schools.
You basically just used a generalization supported by no factual information. I gave my reasons why I feel like it would be for the best. Not saying they have to do it.HShockeywatcher wrote:I still don't understand the idea of forcing a team into a higher class making yourself feel better. Why wouldn't you simply beat them? That's like forcing a D3 team up to play D2 so you don't have to play them. I'm guessing Mahtomedi's glad they're class A...
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HShockeywatcher
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Would it be wrong for the MSHSL to allow a one year opt up option?
Northhcky,
It also says something about the school in Hermantown. There is more than one dynamic to going somewhere else. From what I've heard, Hermantown is a very nice community and school all around.
soaker12,
I wasn't directing anything at anyone, merely asking a question. Like thestickler07 pointed out, many people want them up so they don't have to play them, and other variations. There are D3 teams in many sports that could compete (not at the top, but with some schools) at the D2 or D1 level. As an athlete, I would hate winning by having the guy ahead of me disqualified. In the 2008 Olympics the guy who finished 5th place in the 200m dash was awarded bronze. He deserved bronze based on the rules, but he wasn't the 3rd fastest.
thestickler07 makes excellent points, on both sides. I agree with the points about private schools moving up, in principle that is. Where my disagreement comes in is that (1) your class does not define your ability and (2) teams opting up destroys the enrollment based class system the MSHSL has set up.
Northhcky,
It also says something about the school in Hermantown. There is more than one dynamic to going somewhere else. From what I've heard, Hermantown is a very nice community and school all around.
soaker12,
I wasn't directing anything at anyone, merely asking a question. Like thestickler07 pointed out, many people want them up so they don't have to play them, and other variations. There are D3 teams in many sports that could compete (not at the top, but with some schools) at the D2 or D1 level. As an athlete, I would hate winning by having the guy ahead of me disqualified. In the 2008 Olympics the guy who finished 5th place in the 200m dash was awarded bronze. He deserved bronze based on the rules, but he wasn't the 3rd fastest.
thestickler07 makes excellent points, on both sides. I agree with the points about private schools moving up, in principle that is. Where my disagreement comes in is that (1) your class does not define your ability and (2) teams opting up destroys the enrollment based class system the MSHSL has set up.
Alright, as a player from a single A school I wanna let people know that were not all whiners, I know my team and I personally enjoy playin private schools, its exactly like whatever that guy said above, play against the highest level of athletes, so for all those kids at mahtomedi that worked their butts off and beat St. Thomas even though they were "supposed to lose" because they were playin a private school that "should be in AA" or what-not.. good job, glad to see some new blood.
I agree with you. I basically am just saying you would think they would want to move up to show that they can compete with the best because they are putting a lot of resources into the program, and they don't seem to mind it when they play in the Gold Schwans cup division.HShockeywatcher wrote:Would it be wrong for the MSHSL to allow a one year opt up option?
Northhcky,
It also says something about the school in Hermantown. There is more than one dynamic to going somewhere else. From what I've heard, Hermantown is a very nice community and school all around.
soaker12,
I wasn't directing anything at anyone, merely asking a question. Like thestickler07 pointed out, many people want them up so they don't have to play them, and other variations. There are D3 teams in many sports that could compete (not at the top, but with some schools) at the D2 or D1 level. As an athlete, I would hate winning by having the guy ahead of me disqualified. In the 2008 Olympics the guy who finished 5th place in the 200m dash was awarded bronze. He deserved bronze based on the rules, but he wasn't the 3rd fastest.
thestickler07 makes excellent points, on both sides. I agree with the points about private schools moving up, in principle that is. Where my disagreement comes in is that (1) your class does not define your ability and (2) teams opting up destroys the enrollment based class system the MSHSL has set up.
That's awesome. And I'll tell you that it's very rare to see a group of kids grow up and play together through every level without losing good players to other schools once they reach high school. In the metro, it's even more rare because there's more competitive schools in the area. The point being that if a kid decides to go to a school because he has a chance to go to state, that's not really recruiting. And that happens alot more than the 'recruitment' that people complain about, especially in the metro.Northhcky wrote:I'm not going to get into this public/private argument...just the "Which competitive school doesn't comment." Well i will tell you one...Hermantown!. They won the state tourney in 07 with ALL kids that grew up playing since mites...and no matter how well or poor they do this is the way it is. This years roster or the top players is the roster from squirt A's...PeeWee A's...and Bantam A's the only names that are on the HS roster this year that are not on the A's rosters over the years played B's at Hermantown and i would say they are a "competitive" team!!! And we are probably the only school in the area that has NEVER lost a player to Marshall!! Says something for the program and the loyalty!adamp1914 wrote:You have to be kidding me...
"wah wah wah STA stays class A so they can win they should be AA wah wah"
Then they lose... And people are still trying to argue this? Jeez... get over it. There's absolutely no reason at all for them to be AA. They've been good for like what, 4 our of the last 6 years and that's it? So what? That's not enough proven dominance to move up.
"wah but they recruit from all over"
Which competitive school doesn't? and actually, most of the kids that go to St. Thomas or Cretin get fed to those schools through the Highland youth programs.
God.. If Mahtomedi pulls some more upsets and wins state, then next year they win again, people are going to start crying about them too. You idiots need to realize something. Kids graduate. 4 years of being extremely competitive doesn't mean that a team will continue to dominate a class indefinitely. It's not like they are always going to have better players than other schools.
Anyway, I want to make a comparison to show why one team being competitive one year cannot be used as a basis for the conclusion of opting up. I played for St. Bernard's in 1998. We beat the #1 ranked class A team twice. We beat several other ranked teams in that year. We played 5 AA schools and posted a 4 - 1 record. This shows that we were competitive with the best A schools, and even AA schools. So, should we have opted up next year? (this is the same argument people commonly use for STA moving up). No... because we lost a ton of good players to graduation and won 8 games the next season. Granted STA's string of success is longer, but it's not long enough to suggest that a similar trend won't happen. People try to make the argument that STA's success makes upcoming players want to play for them and that means they are going to always get the cream of the crop. If that's true, why didn't a ton of great players choose to go to St. Bernard's when we were one of the top teams in class A?
You can't say STA will always continue to dominate class A. There's not enough trending or statistics to suggest it. The simple fact that they didn't make it to state this year refutes that argument.
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justlistening
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My two cents, or 4 cents
My nephew plays for STA. The decision to go to that school was based largely upon the Mission Statement of the institution v. his public school option. See www.cadets.com for the STA Mission Statement. Granted, hockey played a factor (only because he is involved in that extracurricular activity) but as you are getting your children ready for the next level of life, a private school can be very appealing for many people. Most privates are "faith-based" which is something you cannot get in the public schools anymore. For you younger readers, the 10 Commandments were actually displayed in every public school classroom until 1980. Many parents who are sending their children to "private" schools value that type of an environment...even for the additional expense.
If the local "public" school is competitive both academically and athletically, they most likely won't be losing players to the privates...ala the prior post regarding Hermantown. Edina would be another good example. Anders Lee made the move back to Edina from STA for various reasons. That has been conveniently omitted from many STA threads.
With open enrollment, these families are choosing what is right for their children. We all make decisions for the betterment of our children and shouldn't be condemned for that. What is considered right for one family (public v. private) is not right for the other. In addition, what is right for one school (A v. AA) is not right for another. Look at Roseau. They chose to stay in AA, but that may not be right for all the A schools, like STA. Warroad stayed in A (which was their option) and have been to the A tournament almost every year since.
I am very frustrated that every "thread" on this FORUM regarding STA turns into a "private v. public" or an "A v. AA" argument. If all you are doing is trying to pick a fight on the STA threads...go to another thread. Those of us that support STA and the kids in the program want to hear about that...not a bunch of malcontents trying to discredit the hard work and dedication by the coaches, players and staff.
By the way...did anyone see the adverstisement by Warroad during the MN State Tournament? It is a very nice piece highlighting all that Warroad has to offer a family, including "activities" where they play clips of Warroad High School Hockey! I don't see a thread out there about Warroad's history of blatant and consistent recruiting efforts! More power to them!! Competition breeds excellence (off-ice and on-ice). For those publics that are losing kids, I would strongly suggest them looking into "WHY?"
If the local "public" school is competitive both academically and athletically, they most likely won't be losing players to the privates...ala the prior post regarding Hermantown. Edina would be another good example. Anders Lee made the move back to Edina from STA for various reasons. That has been conveniently omitted from many STA threads.
With open enrollment, these families are choosing what is right for their children. We all make decisions for the betterment of our children and shouldn't be condemned for that. What is considered right for one family (public v. private) is not right for the other. In addition, what is right for one school (A v. AA) is not right for another. Look at Roseau. They chose to stay in AA, but that may not be right for all the A schools, like STA. Warroad stayed in A (which was their option) and have been to the A tournament almost every year since.
I am very frustrated that every "thread" on this FORUM regarding STA turns into a "private v. public" or an "A v. AA" argument. If all you are doing is trying to pick a fight on the STA threads...go to another thread. Those of us that support STA and the kids in the program want to hear about that...not a bunch of malcontents trying to discredit the hard work and dedication by the coaches, players and staff.
By the way...did anyone see the adverstisement by Warroad during the MN State Tournament? It is a very nice piece highlighting all that Warroad has to offer a family, including "activities" where they play clips of Warroad High School Hockey! I don't see a thread out there about Warroad's history of blatant and consistent recruiting efforts! More power to them!! Competition breeds excellence (off-ice and on-ice). For those publics that are losing kids, I would strongly suggest them looking into "WHY?"