HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:01 pm**

BoogeyMan wrote:Blah, Blah, Blah! Facts are facts.

Take a look at the best hockey associations in the State of Minnesota. Regardless of how they did it. The same programs are continuously the better programs in the state.
If you're part of a weaker program. Go and take a look at the stronger programs and see how they develop the kids.

There is no way that Edina, Jefferson, Wayzata kids are all born natural hockey players. The programs develop these kids.

"Real hockey players aren't born, they're MADE" Famous writer

It all comes down to developing the kids in your local associations. If your associations aren't developing the kids. Then you're going to have weaker teams. It's all clear cut, very simple.
This is what you're seeing. Kids are leaving their programs to find alternative places to play. Develop, develop, develop. Repetition, repetition, repetition. It's called human nature. When any of us can get ahead by doing something. We do it. This is true in life. If you want to do good in school the kids study hard. Sometimes they do alternative schooling to get ahead or stay ahead. Human nature natural competition.

I know Blah, Blah, Blah. Honestly, why is it so hard?

PEACE!

Boogey:

Let's take a look at the best associations anywhere. The reason they turn out more players capable of advancing to higher levels is that they are working with a much higher base. Numbers.

200 Squirts in Edina this year. Are there 200 Squirts in the whole state of Florida - population 18,000,000?! Wow. Of course some of those 200 will go on to earn college scholarships.

Looking at Gopher players from when I attended the U gives us an indication of how the inferior programs, in spite of their smaller numbers, can still turn out players that are better than kids from Edina, Bloomington, White Bear Lake, or Roseau.

Jake Enabek - Northfield
Todd Richards - Crystal
Tom Chorske - Minneapolis
Brett Strot - Osseo
Steve Orth - St. Cloud

There are many more examples.

The other thing to remember is that top programs routinely attract kids from other areas. Good players may 'bubble up' to the already strong teams. In the 80s Edina had kids from California, the Granatos attended Burnsville, and a kid named Dan Plante moved from Hayward to play Minnesota HS hockey before going to Madison and the NHL. He would have made it regardless.

I do agree that poorly run programs are a deterrent, but that's because they don't retain enough kids. Even that's too strong of a term because more likely the problem is economic. Hockey is an expensive sport.

A final thought: 5 Floridians play D1 college hockey. That wouldn't be possible if you had to go through Minnesota Made.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:05 pm**

Skillbuilder was saying their favoritism theirs no question!!!!

weather you like it or not that time and work comes from the parent too.

Theirs/there's.....weather/ whether.....its all the same!!!

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:11 pm**

breakout wrote:
tomASS wrote:Genetics have no influence

Human Nature?
develop and repetition
Sounds like the way rats and dogs are trained. Sounds like how artificial intelligence is programmed for robotics

I can't believe you would pull the genetics card. Genetically predisposed short slow kids with bad hands can get to the top with repetition, repetion, repetition..........develop, develop, develop

Season is on, hopefully the kids are out there working hard and having fun playing the great game of hockey with their friends regardless of where they are at.

Some of you, I believe, place too much emphasis on genetics.

A review of primary and secondary influences on sport expertise

Primary influences
Primary factors have a direct influence on the acquisition of expert performance and
include all elements that an athlete contributes (either intentionally or unintentionally)
to their own performance. Generally, they can be categorized into genetic factors,
training factors and psychological factors.

Concluding remarks and directions for future research
The primary purpose of this paper has been to review the various factors contributing
to exceptional performance in sport. To this end, a range of primary and secondary
factors was considered. However, even the most advantageous genetic composition
combined with training in the most favorable environments is not a guarantee of
success.

www.yorku.ca/bakerj/Baker%20and%20Horton%20HAS.pdf

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:21 pm**

This discussion should be moved to a new thread

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:48 pm**

regdunlop77 wrote:
breakout wrote:
tomASS wrote:Genetics have no influence

Human Nature?
develop and repetition
Sounds like the way rats and dogs are trained. Sounds like how artificial intelligence is programmed for robotics

I can't believe you would pull the genetics card. Genetically predisposed short slow kids with bad hands can get to the top with repetition, repetion, repetition..........develop, develop, develop

Season is on, hopefully the kids are out there working hard and having fun playing the great game of hockey with their friends regardless of where they are at.
However, even the most advantageous genetic composition
combined with training in the most favorable environments is not a guarantee of
success.

I don't know if that revelation shocks me. The fact is, in life there are no guarantees.

How about that Edina tryout?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:13 pm**

breakout wrote: How about that Edina tryout?

How many Squirts? Bumper crop?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:34 pm**

Sudden Death wrote:Edina just finished their tryouts for the Squirt level. An ex-NHLers son did not make the squirt A team and what happens, He and his wife blow up in the lobby of the arena. Yelling, screaming, swearing, going to sue the hockey board.

So here is the question, Can we fix this problem with parents or is it just part of Minnesota hockey?

By the way, I think his son should have made the team, but they took the "Child" of another favored son of Edina.

That was the question. Six days later, the discussion has drifted to genetics of players. To me, the answer to the original question is not one set of parents who were upset with their son not making Squirt A. That will happen. The answer lies in the size of the association and the fact that the association choses to field only one Squirt A. In a very large hockey program, there is limited opportunity for development. If the large hockey association does recognize this and is content with their success, they will do nothing. To me, it is logical to assume with 400+ mites in the pipe and the association remaining unchanged that the numbers will drop because program does not allow for development of all kids interested, it is selecting.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:44 pm**

frederick61 wrote:
Sudden Death wrote:Edina just finished their tryouts for the Squirt level. An ex-NHLers son did not make the squirt A team and what happens, He and his wife blow up in the lobby of the arena. Yelling, screaming, swearing, going to sue the hockey board.

So here is the question, Can we fix this problem with parents or is it just part of Minnesota hockey?

By the way, I think his son should have made the team, but they took the "Child" of another favored son of Edina.
That was the question. Six days later, the discussion has drifted to genetics of players. To me, the answer to the original question is not one set of parents who were upset with their son not making Squirt A. That will happen. The answer lies in the size of the association and the fact that the association choses to field only one Squirt A. In a very large hockey program, there is limited opportunity for development. If the large hockey association does recognize this and is content with their success, they will do nothing. To me, it is logical to assume with 400+ mites in the pipe and the association remaining unchanged that the numbers will drop because program does not allow for development of all kids interested, it is selecting.

Yikes!!

400 mites(20+ mite teams) and all these kids will eventually go to one HS?
That is a lot of kids going to a single school if you look at the fact only a small % of youth in any given community play hockey.
I didn't realize that Edina was still in such a growth phase.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:53 pm**

Neutron 14 wrote:
breakout wrote: How about that Edina tryout?
How many Squirts? Bumper crop?

That's what I hear, bumper crop..............200 or so

you betcha. Seems a parent experienced temporary insanity after hearing of his kids fate. Heard he is recovering nicely......don't ya know.

Speculation is that the inception of the Edina bumper crop occured after the 06-07 Interlachen Country Club Christmas Gala.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:54 pm**

Can't:

Edina isn't growing, but the number of school-age kids has increased greatly after taking a downturn through the 90s.

The age-wave is turning out to be cyclical for that school district. Doesn't hurt the W/L record of their hockey programs, that's for sure.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:01 pm**

400 mites in 3 different age groups.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:06 pm**

DumpandChase1 wrote:400 mites in 3 different age groups.

Yeah I suppose your right on that.
Still that's a lot of kids.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:04 pm**

breakout wrote: Speculation is that the inception of the Edina bumper crop occured after the 06-07 Interlachen Country Club Christmas Gala.

Now THATS a post.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:11 pm**

DumpandChase1 wrote:400 mites in 3 different age groups.

200 girls? Good for them.

I think the reason posters want Edina to have multiple A teams is either their kid is 16-30, or they can't beat them so they want them diluted. Lots of B squirts end up as A bantams. To say they are not developed is a large falsehood. Worry about your own back yard...

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:21 pm**

One person who has stated the associations with large squirt numbers should field 2 A level squirt teams is Don Lucia.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:36 pm**

His kid is one of the top kids in the association. He does not seemed to worried about #1 skating on a line with #30. He also states that real development does not occur until after puberty, so sit back, relax, enjoy a variety of activities, and above all, have fun.

I read a statistic where 25% of all Squirt A players actually play high school. I also read that about 25% of kids who show expertise at 10 retain it through adulthood. Different studies with similar results.

Every kid is different and so do what is best for the kid. Some will overachieve, others will underachieve, some will get burned out, some will mature late and be great. The key is to let the kids find their passion and do you best to support them.

Don also states that genetics plays a role. It is common sense. It is also obvious from all kinds of literature that hard work and deliberate practice are keys to success in anything you do. For the people who truly believe that an unathletic kid will develop into an elite athlete by repitition alone, I have a some waterfront property in Death Valley to sell you.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:10 pm**

sorno82 wrote: Every kid is different and so do what is best for the kid. Some will overachieve, others will underachieve, some will get burned out, some will mature late and be great. The key is to let the kids find their passion and do you best to support them.

For the people who truly believe that an unathletic kid will develop into an elite athlete by repitition alone, I have a some waterfront property in Death Valley to sell you.

Two statements from your post that I applaud

That property your selling.......how much waterfront? Does it include a boat of any kind? I might know someone in Chanhassen that could be interested in it.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:26 pm**

I was quoting the numbers from LAST YEAR'S Edina program (which was greater then 400). Does anybody know this year's number?

I can't equate "age-wave" with hockey numbers. Somehow a mite hockey player is not equal to "baby boomer-like" statistic. Whatever they did at Edina, something worked and the kids turned out. Now the association has to deal with that success as opportunity not only for their community but for youth hockey in general. The disappointed Squirt dad that triggered this thread is just a warning.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:44 pm**

skillbuilder wrote:
carpenterguy wrote:
skillbuilder wrote:
Your post is full of excuses! If your son is good enough he will reach his goals.
Carpenterguy, His goals are achievable but not if he's just good enough, but if he's way better than he should have to be. You can accept or reject that clarification but we've lived it. I'll take experience over theory any day. By the way, which hockey board are you a part of...
skillbuilder: First of all, I have NEVER been a part of a hockey board and would NEVER want to be. That statement alone proves how lost you are in regards to this issue. Sadly, you don't see the excuses you are making. There are many people in life that will always look for an excuse. We all know where they end up!

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:42 pm**

Neutron 14 wrote:
breakout wrote: Speculation is that the inception of the Edina bumper crop occured after the 06-07 Interlachen Country Club Christmas Gala.
Now THATS a post.

It's all about volume. Sometimes I get lucky $\:D/$

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:55 pm**

tomASS wrote:
sorno82 wrote: Every kid is different and so do what is best for the kid. Some will overachieve, others will underachieve, some will get burned out, some will mature late and be great. The key is to let the kids find their passion and do you best to support them.

For the people who truly believe that an unathletic kid will develop into an elite athlete by repitition alone, I have a some waterfront property in Death Valley to sell you.
Two statements from your post that I applaud

That property your selling.......how much waterfront? Does it include a boat of any kind? I might know someone in Chanhassen that could be interested in it.

Could that be Boogey Woogey?

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:11 am**

Just looked at the Wayzata site. They are rostering 37 Mite teams. 500+ Mites. Good luck to the Mite Coordinators!

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:18 am**

I do not have a problem with the concept of MM. It is no different than the Dance Studios and Gymnastics organizations that proliferate the youth scene. I applaud them for having the guts to build two rinks and to push their vision of what hockey development should be. There is no doubt that kids who go through their program get better. The issue I have is at what cost-mentally, physically, and financially? That program will be the best thing to ever happen to some kids, but it also will hurt some kids along the way who are not ready for such a program. That is where the parent needs to do what is best for their child.

The other issue I have is the promise of greatness if you follow the program all the way through. They have told a lot of mite parents that their kid will be squirt A players if they do their programs. Our association has about 10 kids in the Mite choice program, however, I guarantee you that most of those kids will not make squirt A as a first year player.

I was talking about this with a friend this summer who played for the Gophers and had a brother who played in the NHL. He was just laughing at the vision of all these EP and Edina moms running to MM, checks in hand, hoping that little Johnny will be a star some day.

What Bernie did with the 88s was impressive, but they had already gone through squirts. He also picked the best athletes. According to a LPH article, he evaluated their athletic ability off the ice before picking them for his team. He had a special group-they were great athletes already, and they worked their tale off. That combination will yield success most every time.

Let the kids have fun and let the chips fall were they may.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:47 am**

toomanystitches wrote:
Just looked at the Wayzata site. They are rostering 37 Mite teams. 500+ Mites. Good luck to the Mite Coordinators!

Govs you should get the Mite Director job....parent meeting would be awesome

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:02 am**

"toomanystiches", with over 500 mites in Wayzata and over 400 mites in Edina, then shouldn't there be a way to open traveling competition for those kids and wouldn't that improve their programs as well as youth hockey? I will bet that 90% of the other associations wished they had those kind of numbers. Wayzata and Edina are doing something right.

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