The Largest Prep Hockey Message Board Community on the Web
https://www.ushsho.com/forums/
GR has double the enrollment Hibbing does, FYI. And Hibbing is #59 in enrollment among Class A schools. I only see about 20 Class A teams with a smaller enrollment than Hibbing. Even so, ten D1 players have come out of Hibbing in the last decade, including very high enders like Johnson and Perunovich. There have been retention issues, for sure, but production like that out of the #59 enrollment school in Class A is still very good.Edinahopkins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:56 am Um heck no , rather play in the big tournament the real class with 20,000 fans not 6500 and besides a little upt up town of Grand Rapids won in 2017 AA state tournament with the same amount of kids in the youth program as Hibbing, Virginia, Eveleth, Thief River Falls , Alexandria, East Grand Forks, Delano just to name a few Heck Roseau gets it done. Single A is for towns like Park Rapids not decent size towns, I have no Sympathy For Hibbing size class A teams Fix you’re program ! , I do feel sorry for Park Rapids size teams because they are getting the shaft. My opinion not changing it.
Comparing Grand Rapids enrollment to the towns on the central and east range is laughable. Are you even aware of the enrollment declines over the last two decades with all the cuts in the mining labor force?Edinahopkins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:56 am Um heck no , rather play in the big tournament the real class with 20,000 fans not 6500 and besides a little upt up town of Grand Rapids won in 2017 AA state tournament with the same amount of kids in the youth program as Hibbing, Virginia, Eveleth, Thief River Falls , Alexandria, East Grand Forks, Delano just to name a few Heck Roseau gets it done. Single A is for towns like Park Rapids not decent size towns, I have no Sympathy For Hibbing size class A teams Fix you’re program ! , I do feel sorry for Park Rapids size teams because they are getting the shaft. My opinion not changing it.
To be fair, he said number of kids in the Youth Program, not enrollment. That's the only thing that matters. Enrollment means nothing in Hockey. If it did, Minneapolis would be the favorite every year and Warroad would not be the #1 seed in 1A.ironranger2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:10 pmComparing Grand Rapids enrollment to the towns on the central and east range is laughable. Are you even aware of the enrollment declines over the last two decades with all the cuts in the mining labor force?Edinahopkins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:56 am Um heck no , rather play in the big tournament the real class with 20,000 fans not 6500 and besides a little upt up town of Grand Rapids won in 2017 AA state tournament with the same amount of kids in the youth program as Hibbing, Virginia, Eveleth, Thief River Falls , Alexandria, East Grand Forks, Delano just to name a few Heck Roseau gets it done. Single A is for towns like Park Rapids not decent size towns, I have no Sympathy For Hibbing size class A teams Fix you’re program ! , I do feel sorry for Park Rapids size teams because they are getting the shaft. My opinion not changing it.
From the MSHSL website for 9-12 enrollments (2019-20)
Duluth East 1363
Grand Rapids 1006
C-E-C 991
Denfeld 716
Hermantown 630
Hibbing 583
Virginia 423
I-Falls 290
Greenway 250
Eveleth 248
I would bet the school enrollments from Hibbing to Hoyt Lakes have been cut in half (probably more). I would be willing to bet I-falls is closer to 65-70% reduction.
I think it's great Grand Rapids and Cloquet opt up. I hope to god that Virginia/Eveleth combo chooses to go that route as well. I also think that for their size school, Hibbing was producing as much homegrown talent as anyone for a ten year stretch.
How many kids go out for hockey at minis and mites in GR compared to the other range schools? I'm willing to bet a lot more do at GR. By the time they get to squirts, more kids quit hockey at GR because they know they'll never get to play, while in Hibbing, darn near every kid will get a chance on one of the squirt teams.Edinahopkins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:49 pm I could care less about the enrollment. All that matters is how many kids are currently Playing in your program the range schools including Grand Rapids are the same. both field a A team of some kind and a B team. So what’s your excuse now.
But he did also say "decent size towns", implying population=enrollment.Jeffy95 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:30 pmTo be fair, he said number of kids in the Youth Program, not enrollment. That's the only thing that matters. Enrollment means nothing in Hockey. If it did, Minneapolis would be the favorite every year and Warroad would not be the #1 seed in 1A.ironranger2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:10 pmComparing Grand Rapids enrollment to the towns on the central and east range is laughable. Are you even aware of the enrollment declines over the last two decades with all the cuts in the mining labor force?Edinahopkins wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:56 am Um heck no , rather play in the big tournament the real class with 20,000 fans not 6500 and besides a little upt up town of Grand Rapids won in 2017 AA state tournament with the same amount of kids in the youth program as Hibbing, Virginia, Eveleth, Thief River Falls , Alexandria, East Grand Forks, Delano just to name a few Heck Roseau gets it done. Single A is for towns like Park Rapids not decent size towns, I have no Sympathy For Hibbing size class A teams Fix you’re program ! , I do feel sorry for Park Rapids size teams because they are getting the shaft. My opinion not changing it.
From the MSHSL website for 9-12 enrollments (2019-20)
Duluth East 1363
Grand Rapids 1006
C-E-C 991
Denfeld 716
Hermantown 630
Hibbing 583
Virginia 423
I-Falls 290
Greenway 250
Eveleth 248
I would bet the school enrollments from Hibbing to Hoyt Lakes have been cut in half (probably more). I would be willing to bet I-falls is closer to 65-70% reduction.
I think it's great Grand Rapids and Cloquet opt up. I hope to god that Virginia/Eveleth combo chooses to go that route as well. I also think that for their size school, Hibbing was producing as much homegrown talent as anyone for a ten year stretch.
That’s the downside to the Honor System. Some people have none.ShakestheClown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:54 pm The east range schools are the definition of what class A hockey is supposed to be about. They are comprised of smaller schools, who put together an once-in-a-decade team that has the chance to make a good run to state at the class A level. GR is exactly where they are supposed to be. They can make a pretty serious run once or twice a decade at AA. CEC had a similar chance that never panned out within the past few years as well.
Hermantown can make a run for the class A championship EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. That is not an accurate reflection of the intent of class A hockey. It is a program taking advantage of a loophole to chase trophies.
This man knows what he is talking about!! The fans of Hermantown, back pedaling hockey coach and AD bootlickers defending the trophy chasing can stuff it where the sun don't shine!!ShakestheClown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:54 pm The east range schools are the definition of what class A hockey is supposed to be about. They are comprised of smaller schools, who put together an once-in-a-decade team that has the chance to make a good run to state at the class A level. GR is exactly where they are supposed to be. They can make a pretty serious run once or twice a decade at AA. CEC had a similar chance that never panned out within the past few years as well.
Hermantown can make a run for the class A championship EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. That is not an accurate reflection of the intent of class A hockey. It is a program taking advantage of a loophole to chase trophies.
With all due respect, oldtimer, the idea that Hibbing needs to "fix" their program is inaccurate, and just further highlights how Hermantown has skewed expectations for Class A teams. Improve? Yes, for sure, but "fix" implies there is some long-term, systemic problem, which I totally disagree with.northwoods oldtimer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:28 amThis man knows what he is talking about!! The fans of Hermantown, back pedaling hockey coach and AD bootlickers defending the trophy chasing can stuff it where the sun don't shine!!ShakestheClown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:54 pm The east range schools are the definition of what class A hockey is supposed to be about. They are comprised of smaller schools, who put together an once-in-a-decade team that has the chance to make a good run to state at the class A level. GR is exactly where they are supposed to be. They can make a pretty serious run once or twice a decade at AA. CEC had a similar chance that never panned out within the past few years as well.
Hermantown can make a run for the class A championship EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. That is not an accurate reflection of the intent of class A hockey. It is a program taking advantage of a loophole to chase trophies.
BTW Hibbing does need to fix their hockey program problems even the alumni from those great youth teams of the 90's early 2000's will admit that. Come in Hibbing you can do it!
Another way thinking has warped:rainier2 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:34 amWith all due respect, oldtimer, the idea that Hibbing needs to "fix" their program is inaccurate, and just further highlights how Hermantown has skewed expectations for Class A teams. Improve? Yes, for sure, but "fix" implies there is some long-term, systemic problem, which I totally disagree with.northwoods oldtimer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:28 amThis man knows what he is talking about!! The fans of Hermantown, back pedaling hockey coach and AD bootlickers defending the trophy chasing can stuff it where the sun don't shine!!ShakestheClown wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:54 pm The east range schools are the definition of what class A hockey is supposed to be about. They are comprised of smaller schools, who put together an once-in-a-decade team that has the chance to make a good run to state at the class A level. GR is exactly where they are supposed to be. They can make a pretty serious run once or twice a decade at AA. CEC had a similar chance that never panned out within the past few years as well.
Hermantown can make a run for the class A championship EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. That is not an accurate reflection of the intent of class A hockey. It is a program taking advantage of a loophole to chase trophies.
BTW Hibbing does need to fix their hockey program problems even the alumni from those great youth teams of the 90's early 2000's will admit that. Come in Hibbing you can do it!
Just a few years ago, Hibbing had a top three team in Class A, and the year after, they were top ten. The three years since then, yes, the team has swooned, but it's because a couple top forwards and the goalie left, not because no good players were coming up through the ranks. Had those players stayed, Hibbing would have been in the mix for the #3 seed, with a shot at #2. Take the top two skaters and goalie off any Class A team not located in a metro area and see what that does to the team's record. Even Hermantown would take a big step back if you took away Biondi, Pierce, and their best goalie.
So Hibbing has had a bad couple years, after a coach left because of off-ice issues, something we've seen in GR and CEC recently, and because some top players left, something we've seen in CEC, GR, and even Duluth East for god's sake; these things aren't unique to Hibbing. And, very soon, things will improve greatly. Here are a few examples of how they are improving, and as you read it, keep in mind that Hibbing has the 59th largest enrollment in Class A.
Bantams: Won VFW consolation title last year despite a top player being injured, won the district tournament this year despite top goalie being injured, ranked in top ten of bantam A teams that will actually play Class A once in HS, lost one goal games to #1 Warroad and #3 Tartan, went 9-3 against 7A teams, including going 3-2 vs #5 Virginia and #7 Denfeld.
Pee Wees: Won district tournament, came within one goal of being in regional tournament final, ranked #11 of pee wee A teams that will actually play Class A once in HS, went 12-5-1 vs 7A teams.
Squirts and below: Had four squirt teams this year, two of which are ranked in top five of teams that will actually play Class A someday, had a #2 ranked squirt team last year, and overall numbers at these levels are very high.
Are these mind-boggling, going-to-state-every-year results? No, but...THEY SHOULDN'T BE! To Shakes' point, the Class A teams that are not filled with transfers and open enrollees have great classes come through every once in a while and they make a run, like Hibbing in 16-17, or Greenway last year, or the TRF, LF, Luverne, etc. community teams we've seen compete well at state. Even Warroad, as good of a program as there is, who has the #1 seed in the tourney this year, DIDN'T GO TO STATE FOR A DECADE!
What Hermantown has done by sandbagging it's way to state every year is that they have created this hallucinogenic environment where it's not okay to have a down couple of years. No longer is it accepted that teams will have up and down cycles in talent, now it just means your program sucks, and any top players still there better transfer to Hermantown, or CEC, or someplace else with reportedly greener grass to make sure those players' NHL careers aren't derailed by having to play for the #4 seed in 7A. It's complete and utter madness, and with Range kids now going to Hermantown for their senior year to "get noticed", it's reaching full-blown, marbles-lost, truly-gone-fishing insanity.
I've heard the current Hibbing coach resigned, which, if true, is a good thing, because even with the talent exodus their record should have been better. I'm hoping the AD gets it right and hires a Clafton-like coach who will bring energy and dedication to his coaching duties. That said, Hibbing could hire a cyborg downloaded with the combined hockey knowledge of Herb Brooks, Scotty Bowman, and Scott Sandelin, but their 59th largest enrollment in Class A still isn't going to keep up every year with a program that collects talent from 150,000 person metro area and beyond. A team or two per decade? Sure, but NOT EVERY YEAR!
When Scott Perunovich steps on the ice for the St. Louis Blues this spring, he will be the second player from Hibbing to play in an NHL game this year, with both of those players graduating within the last seven years. How many other programs in MN can say this? Ten D1 players have come out of Hibbing over the last decade, plus some D3 players, and because a few of them have left recently because it's no longer acceptable to play for a 4 or 5 seed, that means the program needs to be "fixed"? You'll have to excuse me for thinking the problem just might be in the social media-warped minds of parents and players.
The true irony of players leaving Hibbing and people saying they need to fix their program is this: The two Hibbing players who made it to the freaking NHL didn't find it necessary to transfer to "better" HS programs in order to become world-class players. Adam Johnson stayed through his senior year, and Perunovich had every intention of coming back for his senior year, but Hibbing didn't offer online classes to allow him to do a USHL before-and-after.
Hermantown is killing 7A hockey. Scott Pionk knows it, Lou Nanne knows it, and 99% of HS hockey fans know it.
. Just a few years ago that resume would warrant people to encourage Hibbing to take a good look at it.I dream of the day the MN HS hockey community finds it necessary to call for Hibbing to opt up. But, they would opt up before that ever needed to happen, guaranteed.defense wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:08 amAnother way thinking has warped:rainier2 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:34 amWith all due respect, oldtimer, the idea that Hibbing needs to "fix" their program is inaccurate, and just further highlights how Hermantown has skewed expectations for Class A teams. Improve? Yes, for sure, but "fix" implies there is some long-term, systemic problem, which I totally disagree with.northwoods oldtimer wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:28 am
This man knows what he is talking about!! The fans of Hermantown, back pedaling hockey coach and AD bootlickers defending the trophy chasing can stuff it where the sun don't shine!!
BTW Hibbing does need to fix their hockey program problems even the alumni from those great youth teams of the 90's early 2000's will admit that. Come in Hibbing you can do it!
Just a few years ago, Hibbing had a top three team in Class A, and the year after, they were top ten. The three years since then, yes, the team has swooned, but it's because a couple top forwards and the goalie left, not because no good players were coming up through the ranks. Had those players stayed, Hibbing would have been in the mix for the #3 seed, with a shot at #2. Take the top two skaters and goalie off any Class A team not located in a metro area and see what that does to the team's record. Even Hermantown would take a big step back if you took away Biondi, Pierce, and their best goalie.
So Hibbing has had a bad couple years, after a coach left because of off-ice issues, something we've seen in GR and CEC recently, and because some top players left, something we've seen in CEC, GR, and even Duluth East for god's sake; these things aren't unique to Hibbing. And, very soon, things will improve greatly. Here are a few examples of how they are improving, and as you read it, keep in mind that Hibbing has the 59th largest enrollment in Class A.
Bantams: Won VFW consolation title last year despite a top player being injured, won the district tournament this year despite top goalie being injured, ranked in top ten of bantam A teams that will actually play Class A once in HS, lost one goal games to #1 Warroad and #3 Tartan, went 9-3 against 7A teams, including going 3-2 vs #5 Virginia and #7 Denfeld.
Pee Wees: Won district tournament, came within one goal of being in regional tournament final, ranked #11 of pee wee A teams that will actually play Class A once in HS, went 12-5-1 vs 7A teams.
Squirts and below: Had four squirt teams this year, two of which are ranked in top five of teams that will actually play Class A someday, had a #2 ranked squirt team last year, and overall numbers at these levels are very high.
Are these mind-boggling, going-to-state-every-year results? No, but...THEY SHOULDN'T BE! To Shakes' point, the Class A teams that are not filled with transfers and open enrollees have great classes come through every once in a while and they make a run, like Hibbing in 16-17, or Greenway last year, or the TRF, LF, Luverne, etc. community teams we've seen compete well at state. Even Warroad, as good of a program as there is, who has the #1 seed in the tourney this year, DIDN'T GO TO STATE FOR A DECADE!
What Hermantown has done by sandbagging it's way to state every year is that they have created this hallucinogenic environment where it's not okay to have a down couple of years. No longer is it accepted that teams will have up and down cycles in talent, now it just means your program sucks, and any top players still there better transfer to Hermantown, or CEC, or someplace else with reportedly greener grass to make sure those players' NHL careers aren't derailed by having to play for the #4 seed in 7A. It's complete and utter madness, and with Range kids now going to Hermantown for their senior year to "get noticed", it's reaching full-blown, marbles-lost, truly-gone-fishing insanity.
I've heard the current Hibbing coach resigned, which, if true, is a good thing, because even with the talent exodus their record should have been better. I'm hoping the AD gets it right and hires a Clafton-like coach who will bring energy and dedication to his coaching duties. That said, Hibbing could hire a cyborg downloaded with the combined hockey knowledge of Herb Brooks, Scotty Bowman, and Scott Sandelin, but their 59th largest enrollment in Class A still isn't going to keep up every year with a program that collects talent from 150,000 person metro area and beyond. A team or two per decade? Sure, but NOT EVERY YEAR!
When Scott Perunovich steps on the ice for the St. Louis Blues this spring, he will be the second player from Hibbing to play in an NHL game this year, with both of those players graduating within the last seven years. How many other programs in MN can say this? Ten D1 players have come out of Hibbing over the last decade, plus some D3 players, and because a few of them have left recently because it's no longer acceptable to play for a 4 or 5 seed, that means the program needs to be "fixed"? You'll have to excuse me for thinking the problem just might be in the social media-warped minds of parents and players.
The true irony of players leaving Hibbing and people saying they need to fix their program is this: The two Hibbing players who made it to the freaking NHL didn't find it necessary to transfer to "better" HS programs in order to become world-class players. Adam Johnson stayed through his senior year, and Perunovich had every intention of coming back for his senior year, but Hibbing didn't offer online classes to allow him to do a USHL before-and-after.
Hermantown is killing 7A hockey. Scott Pionk knows it, Lou Nanne knows it, and 99% of HS hockey fans know it.
The resume that was just drafted sure looks like the Blujackets could or should go to AA. Just a few years ago that resume would warrant people to encourage Hibbing to take a good look at it.
Yep, outscored their opponents in Regions 19-1. And their Bantam A team finished ahead of every other Bantam A team that will play 7A in High School. Guess those other programs need to work harder with the kids they have left who didn’t leave for Hermantown!SpreadOut! wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:02 pm I don’t have a year of spare time to read through this full thread, so if this has already been noted, sorry.
Koi
Hermantown’s AA Bantam team has been ranked in top 3 all year and is in the state tourney next weekend. These guys are gonna play Class A in high school?!
Other than the incredibly obvious fact that DM is located smack dab in the center of a metro area of 150,000 people, you're right, they are in identical scenarios.
defense wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:53 pm Just a few years ago the popular opinion on this board was that youth hockey and high school hockey are different and what happens in youth hockey doesnt mean much in high school. What changed??? Ot did the members here just turnover?
Yes. Very true. Cloquet PeeweeAA and BantamAA were in state tournament 3-4 years in a row 5-6 years ago and didn’t do anything in high school.