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goldy313, thanks for the very informative post. I don't follow the other sports nearly as much so I didn't know the private schools were having that kind of success in those other sports.

It seems pretty consistent that the "sweet spot" for the private schools in most other sports is in the class just below the largest, just like hockey. I guess you'd expect that because that's where the enrollment of most of the private schools falls. In a sport like football where you need huge numbers, the privates won't fare well going up against the really big public schools like EP and Wayzata (Cretin being the lone exception here, but they don't seem to have the depth). Also you would think at least one of the privates would really focus on basketball where you need only 3-5 stars to dominate, but you don't see anyone being able to challenge the likes of Hopkins in 4A. I believe it was Minnetonka last year...I know that in girls 2A hockey Stillwater won it this year, and EP won it in 2008, and in 1A Blake won, but Alexandria took it the year before.

Anyway I haven't heard of any "concerted effort" yet to change the system, but maybe you're right that the momentum could build...but personally I still would oppose changing the enrollment-based system for the sole reason that some schools (whether they be public or private) excel in whatever sport they decide to emphasize - as long as they follow the MSHSL rules.

Goldy Gopher wrote:

Papa Bergundy wrote:

Goldy Gopher wrote:

We're all sorry that LF was bounced from the tourney, once again, by a better team. Just because you're rattled doesn't mean anything is wrong with the system. If the number was 9 of 10 or 10 of 10 you might have a point. In the last 20 class A tourneys publics are 12 of 20. Based on your logic all public class A teams should be in AA. We just can't have them dominating the tourney like this.

To you sir, I roll my eyes.

It's not all private's heads people are after. Its about 4 of the last 6 being won by Breck or St Thomas. The 12 of 20 publics argument is irrelavant, it has been a different public school 9 of those times. Different teams were winning the class A title every year. When Benilde won a couple in a few years, they opted up. Now look, they are a perennial contender in class AA. Karl conveiniently pointed out that moving up would "enhance there recruiting power". Maybe so, or maybe it's just that more kids want to play AA hockey. Then, by slim chance, Breck and STA could be perennial contenders in AA, the league they belong in.

As for your Little Falls comments, maybe people argue this issue because they hate seeing Goliath beat David, again.

Mite-dad said nothing about having a problem with only STA and Breck and I was simply responding to his comment.

If Goliath is better than David I would want to see Goliath win to give the crown to the best team in the state. Isn't that the whole point of the tourney? To find out who the best team is?

MSHSL created the two class system so David and Goliath were in different classes. If you truly want to find the best team, for both classes, put all the best teams in class AA.

Papa Bergundy wrote:

Goldy Gopher wrote:

Papa Bergundy wrote: To you sir, I roll my eyes.

It's not all private's heads people are after. Its about 4 of the last 6 being won by Breck or St Thomas. The 12 of 20 publics argument is irrelavant, it has been a different public school 9 of those times. Different teams were winning the class A title every year. When Benilde won a couple in a few years, they opted up. Now look, they are a perennial contender in class AA. Karl conveiniently pointed out that moving up would "enhance there recruiting power". Maybe so, or maybe it's just that more kids want to play AA hockey. Then, by slim chance, Breck and STA could be perennial contenders in AA, the league they belong in.

As for your Little Falls comments, maybe people argue this issue because they hate seeing Goliath beat David, again.

Mite-dad said nothing about having a problem with only STA and Breck and I was simply responding to his comment.

If Goliath is better than David I would want to see Goliath win to give the crown to the best team in the state. Isn't that the whole point of the tourney? To find out who the best team is?

MSHSL created the two class system so David and Goliath were in different classes. If you truly want to find the best team, for both classes, put all the best teams in class AA.

No matter who you put in what classes there are always going to be good and bad teams in each class. How does moving privates to AA take care of that "problem"?

You mean schools like SPA, Minnehaha, Providence, The Saints( private coop), Meadow Creek, Holy Family, should play AA?

power92 wrote:You mean schools like SPA, Minnehaha, Providence, The Saints( private coop), Meadow Creek, Holy Family, should play AA?

Interesting isn't it?

And we're the ones with no logic.

Papa Bergundy wrote:MSHSL created the two class system so David and Goliath were in different classes. If you truly want to find the best team, for both classes, put all the best teams in class AA.

I think they created the two tier system so David and Goliath would be separated. The two class system is based on enrollment, not talent.

If you want all the best teams in AA, why not just go back to the two tier tourney?

Lucia4President wrote:I think they created the two tier system so David and Goliath would be separated. The two class system is based on enrollment, not talent.

If you want all the best teams in AA, why not just go back to the two tier tourney?

That's what you would have to do to makes things as equal as possible, assuming that were to become the main objective of a 2 class tournament.

Just for fun, if you were to use something like the QRF system to divide the state's 154 teams into two halves and then identify the two "best" teams in the lower half (Tier II), this year you would have had Eastview (QRF 73.4) from the current AA and Sauk Rapids-Rice (QRF 73.0) from A. These teams had a combined record of 19-33-1. It wouldn't be very exciting and attract much interest, but it would be a lot more equal.

P.S. Interesting that there would have been five private schools relagated to Tier II: SPA, St. Paul Saints, Providence Academy, Holy Family and Minnehaha Academy. SPA and the St. Paul Saints were very close to the top of the Tier II half, just imagine the outcry if they had advanced and one of them won it.

There was a rumbling of support at lower levels but the transfer rule seemed to slow that a bit. The main reason seems to be that the availability of training facilities and coaching is far more prevelent in Rochester, Minneapolis, or St. Cloud than it is in Plainview, Mora, or Cold Spring. When a kid has access to that it should give an advantage to those who can go to an athletic club or Y vs. those who may be able to have the high school weight room open for a couple of hours each day. Add to that private lessons or indoor ice in July are for more prevelant in larger cities and you can see why Breck kids have a distinct advantage over kids from Redwood Valley no matter the enrollments. Another issue is private schools are much more likely to have junior high sports than their public counterparts, these sports if offered at a public school more often than not are run by volunteer parents instead of paid educators. You can watch the demise of Minneapolis public school sports parallel with the decision to cut middle school athletics. Being able to get kids involved early is a huge advantage in nearly all sports. I realize in a perfect world we would, as a society, be able to fund everything but we just can't and that's how it is and will be.

I'm not so sure that Hopkins basketball or Eden Prairie football ought to be the bar for determining if private schools should be able to compete with the public schools after all nobody outside 2 or 3 schools really competes with Hopkins or Eden Prairie.

Obviously determining class by enrollment is a cut and dry method and one in which their can be no argument as to in which class schools belong, thereby no complaints or charges of favortism or discrimination. I'm not so sure that's a bad thing. That said, personally, since the MSHSL did take action on enrollments based on the fact that kids on the free/reduced lunch program are significantly less likey to participate in athletics I'd like to see the MSHSL take the next step and start looking at drawing area as well. Meaning if your local public school is AA the local private school is AA as well, of course there wold have to be some type of appeal process and in a sport like football with 6 classes maybe only putting those privates up 1 class would be fine.

karl(east) wrote:

bluelineenvy wrote:Now I get it. Recruiting is really only a problem if the privates all move to AA. Then good AA programs like East would have even a smaller chance of ever winning state. I have no problem with open enrollment and kids playing where they want to, just put them up with the big boys.....

Very wrong.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Duluth East. Anyone who has read my posts knows that I want to see East beat the very best competition, and fully deserve whatever they win. Strictly as an East fan, I'd love to see all the privates in AA. We'd finally resolve the stupid East-Marshall argument, for one thing.

But as a more objective observer of hockey in Minnesota, I support the current system. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than any alternative that has been proposed so far? Yes.

Karl - What/where would be the turning point for you to understand something needs to be changed? When breck, STA, Marshall win the next 3 tournaments and make it 5 in a row? Don't look at the last 20 years look at the last 7 or 8, that tells the story of where things are and where they are headed.
The current system is flawed, just as moving up all the private schools would be also (I agree there are privates that don't belong in AA). Talking about it is good as someone may come up with a better solution..

Breck was fun to watch at the tourny, and would have been more enjoyable to watch knock off EP...

bluelineenvy wrote:Karl - What/where would be the turning point for you to understand something needs to be changed? When breck, STA, Marshall win the next 3 tournaments and make it 5 in a row? Don't look at the last 20 years look at the last 7 or 8, that tells the story of where things are and where they are headed.
The current system is flawed, just as moving up all the private schools would be also (I agree there are privates that don't belong in AA). Talking about it is good as someone may come up with a better solution..

Breck was fun to watch at the tourny, and would have been more enjoyable to watch knock off EP...

Interesting question, and yes, I think the situation you described is probably when I would start to say something needs to be changed. At that point, it would be glaringly obvious. And if you're the MSHSL and you believe in equity, you probably shouldn't make changes until it is that glaringly obvious.

Incidentally, the 16-team, 1-class one I made up last year (see http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ass+16team) was driven partially by a mild concern about private domination. After looking it over, though, I concluded this:

karl(east) wrote:the system we have right now is the best. For now, anyway. I don't see this year kicking off some stream of private school dominance at the AA level. Benilde and Hill are both going to lose a number of significant players. AHA and CDH had down years and I don't expect to quite be there next year. But we'll see.

Single A is a different story. If, say, 3-5 years from now we're still seeing consistent domination by STA and Marshall, and neither shows any desire to move up, then something should probably be done about it. But we'll deal with that problem if and when we come to it.

I didn't know as much then as I do now, but I think this is still very relevant. I might also (somewhat smugly) note that I was right. The AA privates weren't really in the state title picture by sections; in A neither Marshall nor STA made it, showing that A isn't just a playground for a select few schools. It so happened that the team that jumped into the vacuum was Breck, another private; but yes, I'd still give it another 2-4 years before I start to thinking something needs to be changed.

I agree that talking about it is good. I kinda like seeing the different possible formats and judging them, so long as the conversation stays civil. That's why I didn't pull out the MSHSL Mission Statement Card until recently...and though no one has touched it the three times I have brought it up, it is true that there's no mention of competitive balance in it.

If the "private domination" ends up driving down attendance at the A tourney (as competitive imbalance usually does to attendance figures), you can bet that the MSHSL will start paying attention. But until then, they have no incentive, nor any reason as given by their mission statement, to do anything. And though it might sound harsh and a bit cynical, I understand where they're coming from when they do that.

Who is it that you guys want to win?

The reason we have 2 classes is because whiners said that the playing field wasn't level and that the big schools had all of the this and that and blah blah.

For the 1st ten years or so of A, old time northern teams or Red Wing won. Was that OK? or did those teams have an unlevel playing field in their favor?

Now lately in A, privates have won a lot. Different privates but the same category. Never mind that one is religous and on the east side of town the others on the west and the other in Duluth. They are private so the playing filed must not be level and they must be all the same. They all look a like you know.

How ridiculous. Who do you guys want in the state tournament and who do you want to win it. Just tell the MSHSL and demand that it happen.

Old first tier suburbs like Richfield, SSP... ..forget it, it is over with.

Inner city hockey in either St Paul or Minneapols? Yah right.

Hockey south of the cities? Good luck with that.

What does that leave you?

Oh, how about the old time northern teams and the privates.

jackdaniels brings up a very good point. If we force the privates out of A, we're back where we were in the 90s in that class. This means pretty much nothing but the two northern teams in the title game. The only teams that broke that were Johnny Pohl's Red Wing squads.

As much as I love northern hockey, is that really what we want for A? Realistically, I could see Warroad winning the thing over 50% of the time.

Goldy Gopher wrote:

power92 wrote:You mean schools like SPA, Minnehaha, Providence, The Saints( private coop), Meadow Creek, Holy Family, should play AA?

Interesting isn't it?

And we're the ones with no logic.

Because that's what I said right? I thought I stated clearly, St Thomas and Breck should be in AA. If your such a wealth of knowledge, put together a paragraph on why Breck shouldn't play AA.

This isn't about MSHSL changing rules. To some it may be. But to me it's using the "opt-up" choice given by the MSHSL, or lack of, that bothers me. I'm not asking the league to force them, I'm simply asking why dont they. I'm not calling these wins a tainted championship because the league won't even the play, I dont understand why the schools that clearly could compete at a higher level don't take it upon themselves.

I understand the class system is based on enrollment, but as I said earlier it doesn't take half a brain to figure out certain privates schools get certain players there for athletic reasons specifically.

And to those who brought up the 90's northern teams. Specifically Warroad. Warroad is a hockey machine similar to Roseau. If, after teams like Breck, St Thomas etc. make the jump, Warroad wins 5 of the next 6, is it too much to say we'd be having this same argument about them moving up? If you opt up one year it isn't some 10 year package plan (I think...). You can choose not to the next year.

I'm fine with the system, it's clearly the fairest way to do it, but I think aforementioned schools should take it upon themselves to make it even fairer. Thoughts, comments etc. encouraged, thanks.

Papa Bergundy wrote:I'm fine with the system, it's clearly the fairest way to do it, but I think aforementioned schools should take it upon themselves to make it even fairer. Thoughts, comments etc. encouraged, thanks.

Papa, I understand your point, but please consider: if the teams that have had success lately all moved up, like Warroad, St. Thomas and Breck, just to name three - wouldn't that leave a weaker Class A tournament? As it is they are having a hard time drawing fans - less than half the attendance of the AA tournament on average. If all the "aforementioned schools" move up, and continue to do so with each good showing in A, where would that leave the Class A tournament in terms of something the average fan would want to watch? Just something to take into consideration....

P.S. I don't have any affiliation with any of the Class A schools, but the way it is now I really enjoy watching the A tournament, because it's good hockey, and I just want it to stay that way.

karl(east) wrote:
As much as I love northern hockey, is that really what we want for A?

What do you (not meant to be personel) want?

Whatever it is that people want, the teams that win will be from schools that have hockey as a priority.

ALL of the A titles have been won by old northern power teams or a private except 1 by RW. Why?

If you move all of the privates to AA, you have to do the same with the notherners.

If you do that maybe you end up with what people want for Class A, which in my opinion isnt worth the bother.

jackdaniels wrote:

karl(east) wrote:
As much as I love northern hockey, is that really what we want for A?

What do you (not meant to be personel) want?

Whatever it is that people want, the teams that win will be from schools that have hockey as a priority.

ALL of the A titles have been won by old northern power teams or a private except 1 by RW. Why?

If you move all of the privates to AA, you have to do the same with the notherners.

If you do that maybe you end up with what people want for Class A, which in my opinion isnt worth the bother.

I'm agreeing with you. I prefer the system as it is. The question was rhetorical, and directed at the people who disagree with us.

Papa Bergundy wrote:This isn't about MSHSL changing rules. To some it may be. But to me it's using the "opt-up" choice given by the MSHSL, or lack of, that bothers me. I'm not asking the league to force them, I'm simply asking why dont they. I'm not calling these wins a tainted championship because the league won't even the play, I dont understand why the schools that clearly could compete at a higher level don't take it upon themselves.

I can't give you a reason for Breck, but this person can give you one about STA:

DotaDangler wrote:I have many close family ties at STA, and the reason STA doesn't opt up to AA has nothing to do with being trophy chasers or wanting to make the state tournament more often. This year they would have had a better chance at making state in other AA sections anyways. The reason they don't opt up is because the donors and board of directors(the people behind the money) want STA to stay academic and tradition focused, and moving to AA signals a shift in focus and priorities. Cretin and STA used to be mirror images of each other, but 20 years ago Cretin combined with Derham, made JROTC optional, and shifted their focus more towards athletics. This is obvious as they have produced outstanding athletes like Joe Mauer and Chris Wienke and have become a sports powerhouse. The "old school" people don't want this to happen at STA, so they will remain in A until they are either comfortable moving up or are forced to.

I can't give you a reason for Breck, but this person can give you one about STA:

DotaDangler wrote:I have many close family ties at STA, and the reason STA doesn't opt up to AA has nothing to do with being trophy chasers or wanting to make the state tournament more often..... The reason they don't opt up is because the donors and board of directors(the people behind the money) want STA to stay academic and tradition focused, and moving to AA signals a shift in focus and priorities..

Absolute BS. Cadet Kool Aid.

They need the exposure winning brings and are afraid it would be significantly less if they played at the top levels of competition.

They have to play at AAA in baseball and it doesnt destroy their academics. Why would playing at AA in hockey affect academics?

The focus of all high schools is academics. Many schools have standout AA hockey and outstanding academics and many AA hockey players are great students. You would think that for 15K a year , the STA folks could figure out how to blend AA hockey and excellent academics like everybody else does, private and public.


STA focuses on athletics as much as any school and always has and hockey is a big deal there.

They play in A and the lower classes in other sports so they can be more succesful in the postseason and enjoy the exposure that brings. I dont know why they just dont say that and forget the BS.

DotaDangler wrote:I have many close family ties at STA, and the reason STA doesn't opt up to AA has nothing to do with being trophy chasers or wanting to make the state tournament more often..... The reason they don't opt up is because the donors and board of directors(the people behind the money) want STA to stay academic and tradition focused, and moving to AA signals a shift in focus and priorities..

Agreed with Jack.
You cannot possibly say this with a straight face.
Hockey is a HUGE priority at STA.

Hockey is also a HUGE priority at Breck. Would you contend that their focus or priority is NOT on hockey, because THEY play in Class A?

The "donors and board of directors" want STA to succeed. Hockey success gets them a lot of time in the limelight, which is good and cheap advertising. If the focus and priorities were fully "academic and tradition focused" they wouldn't participate in sports at all. Hockey is a priority, alright. And it's a BIG one.

jackdaniels wrote:I can't give you a reason for Breck, but this person can give you one about STA:

DotaDangler wrote:I have many close family ties at STA, and the reason STA doesn't opt up to AA has nothing to do with being trophy chasers or wanting to make the state tournament more often..... The reason they don't opt up is because the donors and board of directors(the people behind the money) want STA to stay academic and tradition focused, and moving to AA signals a shift in focus and priorities..

Absolute BS. Cadet Kool Aid.

They need the exposure winning brings and are afraid it would be significantly less if they played at the top levels of competition.

They have to play at AAA in baseball and it doesnt destroy their academics. Why would playing at AA in hockey affect academics?

The focus of all high schools is academics. Many schools have standout AA hockey and outstanding academics and many AA hockey players are great students. You would think that for 15K a year , the STA folks could figure out how to blend AA hockey and excellent academics like everybody else does, private and public.


STA focuses on athletics as much as any school and always has and hockey is a big deal there.

They play in A and the lower classes in other sports so they can be more succesful in the postseason and enjoy the exposure that brings. I dont know why they just dont say that and forget the BS.

First, do you actually know anything about the school or are you just making up crap like so many people on this board??? I gave you the facts, deal with it.

The school has been around for 150 YEARS, they have been good at hockey the last 6 YEARS, they have not always focused on hockey. Again, do you actually know anything about the school?

They are assigned to play AAA at baseball, so they play there. If they were assigned to play AA at hockey they would.

ATTN:If you dont know anything about the school or how it is run, dont make things up and call me a liar.

DotaDangler wrote:
I gave you the facts, deal with it.

The school has been around for 150 YEARS, they have been good at hockey the last 6 YEARS, they have not always focused on hockey. Again, do you actually know anything about the school?

They are assigned to play AAA at baseball, so they play there. If they were assigned to play AA at hockey they would.

ATTN:If you dont know anything about the school or how it is run, dont make things up and call me a liar.

You gave us no facts.

You gave us a lot of BS.

Do you actually beleive that a school that has been around 150 years cant play AA hockey and still maintain high academics. Its incredible that anybody would say(or believe) that.

What did they do when there were no classes for 130 years? Everbody flunk out?

If someone at STA is telling you that they cant play AA hockey and maintian academics, they a feeding you a line of garbage.

If STA wants to play A hockey, I dont give a rip but dont hand us the BS that it's because of academics.

Jack Daniels, here are the facts for you-

You claim STA plays A because "They need the exposure winning brings". This is simply false, and you just made it up. The school has been around for 150 years and will stay open regardless of how good the hockey team is. They dont all of a sudden need the exposure when they have managed just fine for 140 or so years without good hockey.

You claim "They play in A and the lower classes in other sports so they can be more succesful in the postseason". Also false, they play where they are assigned by the MSHL at all sports. They have always played where they are assigned and always will. This has been explained at least a hundred times.

Just because they are good for a couple years doesn't mean they are trophy chasers. They didn't go to state in Football, basketball, or hockey this year. They haven't won a football state championship in 25 years, yet you think they should opt up from where they have been assigned??

"Do you actually beleive that a school that has been around 150 years cant play AA hockey and still maintain high academics" I never said that. They probably could play AA, as could many other schools, but they wont, because STA is unlike Breck, Blake, Cretin or any other private school. They still are an all-male, military school, as Cretin once was. Notice how Cretin started to form into the sports/recruiting powerhouse they are today when they made military optional and combined with Derham. Its not a coincidence, they shifted their priorities plain and simple. The people at STA dont want this to happen and as a result they will not opt up.

STA doesn't opt up because it would signal a shift in priorities leaning towards athletics, which has stated a couple times now. I don't know how people don't understand this. It is not BS. I went there for 6 years, I would know. It is unlike any other school. Administrators want to see the athletic programs succeed only because they genuinely care about the students. Winning conference championships and state titles does nothing to attract new students. A random student isn't going to decide to go to STA because when they won a state title. People don't go to private schools on a whim. Their is a capacity number at the Academy that is there to preserve the professor-student ratio. There is almost always a waiting list to get in to the school and it has little to nothing to do with winning state titles. I don't know what more can be said about said about this, STA plays in the class they are assigned, it is as simple as that.

DotaDangler wrote:Jack Daniels, here are the facts for you-

You claim STA plays A because "They need the exposure winning brings". This is simply false, and you just made it up. The school has been around for 150 years and will stay open regardless of how good the hockey team is. They dont all of a sudden need the exposure when they have managed just fine for 140 or so years without good hockey.

You claim "They play in A and the lower classes in other sports so they can be more succesful in the postseason". Also false, they play where they are assigned by the MSHL at all sports. They have always played where they are assigned and always will. This has been explained at least a hundred times.

Just because they are good for a couple years doesn't mean they are trophy chasers. They didn't go to state in Football, basketball, or hockey this year. They haven't won a football state championship in 25 years, yet you think they should opt up from where they have been assigned??

"Do you actually beleive that a school that has been around 150 years cant play AA hockey and still maintain high academics" I never said that. They probably could play AA, as could many other schools, but they wont, because STA is unlike Breck, Blake, Cretin or any other private school. They still are an all-male, military school, as Cretin once was. Notice how Cretin started to form into the sports/recruiting powerhouse they are today when they made military optional and combined with Derham. Its not a coincidence, they shifted their priorities plain and simple. The people at STA dont want this to happen and as a result they will not opt up.

Just what we need - our future military personnel competing at the lowest level.

STA calls Cretin out on recruiting! Says they have shifted their priorities plain and simple!

Quick someone from Cretin tell us what is actually going on over there.

Papa is right - the successful A programs need to opt up. It is the right thing to do on so many levels. Imagine when one of them opt up and win the big one - there will be no more arguments on this board - other than recruiting

"It is the right thing to do on so many levels."

What levels? Why is it the right thing to do?