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On to page 76 of this thread , well done !

Time for someone to put on a new poll?

Simple question :

“Is it time for Hermantown to move to AA?”

Rainier, if Hermantown played AA the things you point out would be better.

Westie, the poll would be almost 100% saying Hermantown should play AA and for the rare grey duck that says A we can find a few lackeys to carry their water making nonsensical arguments.

It's too bad there aren't enough people in positions of control that think having meaningful games against the state's best teams at the END of the season is as important as having them THROUGHOUT the season. They'll walk to a state title this year. No Gentry, no St. Thomas, no Blake, no Roseau. Breck no longer fields a hockey team.

The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something.

rainier wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:35 am

headsupsticksdown wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:39 pm

Rails Hockey wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:20 pm

I was referring to the transfers. Looks like all but Callaway transferred during Youth Hockey. Also another Soph from Denfeld not listed on the Hub so looks like 10 total actually. Probably fewer than previous years.

Not totally directed at you, Rails, but considering your ID, it's pretty obvious you're right in the thick of this discussion. Without getting into too many details, I live outside the US and yet I make it a "thing" to bring my boy out to the 218 for various skates and camps, meaning I have spent a significant time in HTown and St. Luke's. At first, it was entertaining seeing how all the kids kind of grouped together--you had all the navy/gold, green/white, red/white mixed together and having a great time in the early stages. Then after a few years you'd see hardly any navy/gold socks and a lot of the local Duluth associations would then venture off into other camps that were directed at their specific associations. From what I saw, the green/white kids seemed to be consistently skating all over the place, but the HTown and East kids with the exception of a few would be skating somewhere else. The talent of the kids from HTown and GA (just an example) were typically clearly ahead of what I saw from the kids in Proctor, but at the youth level, who really cares, right? However, the difference in skill level and intensity on the ice clearly suffers and if you consider your kid to be a strong or above average skater, it'd be hard to argue the decision to skate against better competition. Again, being an "outsider", I probably have 1% of the view of the local folks out there, but despite all the politics and craziness of what goes on in say HTown, their program builds a complete player that skates hard, scores and preaches defensive intensity. Proctor has always been viewed as emphasizing the offensive side of things with little to no defensive skill building, however, I'd say this has changed over the past 2-3 years. I really honestly hope Proctor pulls through as I've met tons of great kids and parents up there, but with HTown right across the tracks, it'll be like trying to convince a QwikTrip honk that Holiday is better and vice versa...

I've always defended HTown as a community and program because quite frankly unless you've seen it first hand, you really have no idea how much they put into that program. The volunteers, kids, association and entire community pretty much bust their arse so simply saying that they are only what they are due to "transfers" is unfair IMO. From SQ to Bantam's, there's talent up and down the roster. Kids come into that program/association because of it's reputation and the opportunities it presents. If you don't like it, build up your program and offer an alternative because quite frankly loyalty these days unfortunately means nothing sadly...

Where I am in agreement is the A/AA discussion. When you're literally outscoring your opponents 120+ to 5G's against season after season, you have to seriously sit down and ask yourself if that's the right decision. It's ridiculous seeing HTown rip off 40-50 shots/game against A opponents time and time again. It's pretty obvious that they *should* be skating in AA, but I won't hold my breath...

I appreciate your first-hand knowledge and see you also agree they should obviously be AA by now. I agree Hermantown has an excellent program and that the kids, parents, association, etc. put a lot into it. (I lived in Duluth for 15 years and one of my best friends has kids in the Hermantown program, so I am familiar with it.)

But I do have a couple of things I'd like to push back on a bit. From a AA persepctive, everything you say makes perfect sense, but since Hermantown plays in A, and people associated with the program (in what way I don't know) recruit players from surrounding A teams, to me it makes sense to look at Hermantown through the eyes of a non-metro, community-based team. So that's how I'll approach looking at a couple of your statements: not to attack you, just to re-frame it from a small town perspective.

"The volunteers, kids, association and entire community pretty much bust their arse so simply saying that they are only what they are due to "transfers" is unfair IMO."

Hermantown is a great program, but they have reached the level of success they have had because of transfers and open enrollees. This is just an inescapable fact. From very young ages all the way to varsity, the strength of Hermantown teams grows as players that are already known to be good put on a Hawk jersey for the first time. People associated with the program absolutely recruit, and certainly some families just decide on their own to go there because it is a good program, but the fact remains that if Hermantown varsity were made up of players that had lived in Hermantown and worn a Hawk jersey their entire lives, we'd be seeing a team that looks a lot more like TRF or Hibbing than EP or Tonka.

Case in point. Take the incredible 2016 Hawk team that had two fantastic lines and three fantastic defenseman. Two of those forwards and all three of those defenseman were transfers/open enrollees. That leaves you with four top Hermantown-only forwards. At least one of those players would have to be moved to defense, and what are you left with? A team with an excellent top line and 1-2 quality defenseman, which, strangely enough, is exactly the make-up of most good non-metro Class A teams.

Outstate teams are subject to the ups and downs of talent cycles; even the Roseaus, Warroads, and GRs have their down years. During these down years, outstate teams hope for the best, cheer their teams on, and look forward to the next great group that comes through. A down year in Hermantown just means there are more spots to be filled with surrounding talent as the teams progresses towards varsity.



"If you don't like it, build up your program and offer an alternative..."

This one really grinds my gears, because it's been repeated a lot on here, and I've heard it from Hermantonians first hand. I get that you're saying to build up your program so you can attract more players, which is good thing, but this is a concept that really doesn't apply to non-metro teams. What nearby youth association will International Falls attract players from? Should TRF people be prowling (pun intended) Red Lake Falls mite games recruiting kids who show some promise? Does it makes sense for a Greenway or Rock Ridge parent to do an extra hour of winter highway driving every day so their neighbors can shun them for having their kid can go play for a hated rival in Hibbing?

And what really gets me is that in 7A over the past decade, Hibbing, Greenway, Denfeld, Virginia, and even tiny Eveleth have produced some very good-to-excellent teams, and only once was anyone able to break through Hermantown, which only happened because Greenway had two top six forwards and a goalie transfer there that season. Is this what all 7A teams, and outstate teams in general, should be trying to do?

I mean, in 2016, Hibbing had a top 3 Class A team, with a future NHLer, two other D1-caliber players, and two others that played D3. They had all this yet they lost to Hermantown 8-1! This is why when people say "Make your program better", I ask "How much better are they supposed to get??!!"

We may see this again this season with Warroad : they have an awesome community team, yet I don't think anyone would bet a cent on them being able to beat Hermantown.

Again, I'm not attacking you. From a AA persepctive, what you say makes great sense, but there are people out there who try to apply the Hermantown standard to community A teams, and then rip on these teams for falling short. And the Hermantown recruiters use this same false equivalence to hoodwink parents into thinking their home program sucks, and that by joining the Hermantown program their kid will be subjected to some magical development program no one can match.

Just in general, for anyone out there who subscribes to the "Hermantown's program is great. Quit whining and make your program better." viewpoint, I ask that you think about these two questions:

How good would Hermantown be without transfer and open enrollment?

How much better are outstate programs supposed to get?

Thank you for your insight, Rainier. I will preface this with noting that I attended many Blue Jacket games back in the day while visiting gma/gpa and still make it out there when I get a chance to pay my respects. I will also again mention that I am a supporter of the Hermantown program and community, but believe they should make the move to AA.

How good would Hermantown be without transfer and open enrollment?

I kinda get where you and most of the opposition are when it comes to this, but every school in the state has open enrollment so it's not like Hermantown has somehow found a loophole in the system and using that to it's advantage in steam rolling the competition. Transferring a child to another school is at the discretion of parents, so any decision that is made where it's considered to be unethical or "unfair", should be directed at parents. Not the school, association, coaching staff, etc.

As a parent (and I speak for myself here), you want what you viewto be the best for your child. Whether that's putting them in an environment where you feel they are more comfortable or a better position to succeed or whatever. Unfortunately, some parents do what they feel is best for them and their egos and if it's against the wishes of their child, then they deserve all the backlash coming their way. However, each situation may be different and if a kid moves schools because of the aforementioned reasons, I personally do not feel as if that should be viewed as being negative. It's been mentioned in this thread earlier, but if you're a parent and you're literally driving past one school on your way to another and make a decision that it makes more sense having your child attend that school instead, then so be it. If you feel moving your child in to a program where you believe they'd excel, develop and be challenged more and you know that's the type of kid they are, then so be it. The fact is, there are kids that play and act totally different when they're in a different environment, whether they're the type of kid that needs more talent around them to be pushed, or a certain type of character trait around them to fit in or whatever, it's definitely a valid reason IMO for kids to move around. Again, any program can benefit from a kid coming in and are bound to no restrictions, meaning rule/legal wise Hermantown has no advantage over any other program out there.

Now, the elephant in the room is Hermantown as a community. You bring up towns on the Range and IF; again, I have soft spot for the Range so I'm in no way knocking the Range, but why would I pack up my family and move to IF, Hibbing, Taconite, Eveleth, etc.? Comparing the community of Hermantown to any of them is absolutely ridiculous. My point here is that there are more reasons why people choose to move into Hermantown than just hockey. It's the schools, proximity to the greater Duluth area, jobs, extra curricular activities, etc. As a parent, if I have two choices, one that allows me to continue to work or easily find work, put my kid in a good school where not only do they get good academics, but have a strong athletic program or two, move to a place that has no jobs, a run down and declining community/population, a decent athletic program and average academic program, which one of the two do you think I'd choose? I know hockey parents are notorious for putting in tons of hours and effort into assuring their kid gets to practice, etc., so this should come as no surprise. Heck, I've driven my kid 5 hours round trip on a school night to get 1 hour of ice time simply because he says he likes the coach and ice time and literally has fun. People tell me I'm bat __ crazy, but that's what we hockey parents do for our children. My point here is as a parent, I'm not moving the entire family somewhere on the Range or to IF because it makes no sense; hockey aside.

This is a HUGE reason why Hermantown benefits from open enrollment when compared to other towns, especially when we're talking specifically about up North. And now that they've got a Costco, watch them come in droves now. It's literally over.

So, when I say build something comparable, this is where I'm coming from. Having D1 talent certainly helps, but is only another part of a bigger whole. There are plenty of teams/programs that produce D1 talent or are stacked top to bottom and STILL lose. It only goes to show that it's not just about talent, coaching, environment, etc., play a HUGE if not bigger role. If not, Hermantown would be winning State year after year yet they don't, further proving the point. This conversation is super similar to a lot of what's happening nowadays. In your job, regardless of how long you've been there, if a competitor offers you more money with better benefits, are you going to take it or turn it down out of loyalty? Then if you do end up taking the other job, is it your fault? The company that hired you's fault? Or should you be looking at your previous employer and saying "you should've provided an environment that made me feel like I never wanted to leave"?

O-townClown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:07 pm Rainier, if Hermantown played AA the things you point out would be better.

Westie, the poll would be almost 100% saying Hermantown should play AA and for the rare grey duck that says A we can find a few lackeys to carry their water making nonsensical arguments.

It's too bad there aren't enough people in positions of control that think having meaningful games against the state's best teams at the END of the season is as important as having them THROUGHOUT the season. They'll walk to a state title this year. No Gentry, no St. Thomas, no Blake, no Roseau. Breck no longer fields a hockey team.

The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something.

Are you saying Delano or say Detroit Lakes have no shot?

headsupsticksdown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:19 pmAre you saying Delano or say Detroit Lakes have no shot?

Yeah. I'm not one to regulate greatness, but winning the NIT isn't as big of a deal as being Division II champs. Truth is most of the Class A state tournaments would be awesome without Hermantown and St. Thomas. Orono, Mahtomedi, Greenway, and the like may bubble up with awesome games from the Alexandrias and Luvernes.

Virtually everyone thinks it is a joke that Hermantown plays Class A. Those that don't mind being the butt of the joke don't care, so here we are.

O-townClown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:07 pm Rainier, if Hermantown played AA the things you point out would be better.

Westie, the poll would be almost 100% saying Hermantown should play AA and for the rare grey duck that says A we can find a few lackeys to carry their water making nonsensical arguments.

It's too bad there aren't enough people in positions of control that think having meaningful games against the state's best teams at the END of the season is as important as having them THROUGHOUT the season. They'll walk to a state title this year. No Gentry, no St. Thomas, no Blake, no Roseau. Breck no longer fields a hockey team.

The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something.

Agree completely. If Hermantown were in AA, I'd have no complaints about the way they do business: it's the norm for AA programs. If there were still transfers, I wouldn't celebrate it, but at least kids wouldn't be transferring just because of a guaranteed trip to state.

As a rabid Bulldog fan (UMD hockey, not actual bulldogs with rabies), I love Hermantown and how their players have helped the Dogs become the best college team in the country the past decade. (I also must add that Hibbing players have have played a huge role in this also)

I'll root like hell for Warroad if they get a shot at Hermantown at state.

O-townClown wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:07 pm Rainier, if Hermantown played AA the things you point out would be better.

Westie, the poll would be almost 100% saying Hermantown should play AA and for the rare grey duck that says A we can find a few lackeys to carry their water making nonsensical arguments.

It's too bad there aren't enough people in positions of control that think having meaningful games against the state's best teams at the END of the season is as important as having them THROUGHOUT the season. They'll walk to a state title this year. No Gentry, no St. Thomas, no Blake, no Roseau. Breck no longer fields a hockey team.

The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something.

Ouch, OTC. Hitting below the belt there (but sadly true)

I wonder if the kids on the team would prefer to compete in the AA tournament.

"The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something."
Yeah the kid from Eagle Lake Ontario beating the recruiters, Lots of irony there.

BleedGreen5 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:23 pm "The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something."
Yeah the kid from Eagle Lake Ontario beating the recruiters, Lots of irony there.

Didn’t he spend a few years out there? I remember watching a documentary about how they moved to Warroad and Mom was going back/forth for work…. Why’d he end up leaving (and then coming back)?

headsupsticksdown wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:24 pm

BleedGreen5 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:23 pm "The only thing that would make this ruse of them playing Class A funnier is if they got beat by Warroad in March. Gardner with 4 goals or something."
Yeah the kid from Eagle Lake Ontario beating the recruiters, Lots of irony there.

Didn’t he spend a few years out there? I remember watching a documentary about how they moved to Warroad and Mom was going back/forth for work…. Why’d he end up leaving (and then coming back)?

https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/5 ... on-gardner
Gardner played Bantams and Midgets in Winnipeg, then went down to USHL Omaha last season. He started this season with the Lancers, but presumably left due to the complete disaster that franchise has become (google it for details). Don’t blame him for getting out of the Omaha situation, but returning to Class A high school hockey seems like a big step down, even at Warroad.

Stang5280 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:46 pmreturning to Class A high school hockey seems like a big step down, even at Warroad.

Great story whenever a player chooses MSHSL over something higher. The poobah at YHH was hoping to see a recent Minnesotan return to his HS program after two seasons with NTDP.

So far this year Hermantown has beaten Benilde 6-5, Hill-Murray 4-1 and Wayzata 2-1 and they jump down to Class A for the playoffs. How ridiculous? Hermantown is a disgrace not only to the game of hockey but humanity as well.

O-townClown wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:45 pm

Stang5280 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:46 pmreturning to Class A high school hockey seems like a big step down, even at Warroad.

Great story whenever a player chooses MSHSL over something higher. The poobah at YHH was hoping to see a recent Minnesotan return to his HS program after two seasons with NTDP.

I forgot to add this the other day (slow clap)

StanleyCup55 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:49 am ...Hermantown is a disgrace to humanity....

Yes, all humans past and present should be ashamed.

I find it extremely weird that Hermantown continues to celebrate with happiness and joy after winning 11-0 in a section final after outscoring opponents 30-0 in the three games. How can you actually be excited about that when you’ve beat all the top teams in the state and you’re one of the best overall. So effen weird.

StanleyCup55 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:56 pm I find it extremely weird that Hermantown continues to celebrate with happiness and joy after winning 11-0 in a section final after outscoring opponents 30-0 in the three games. How can you actually be excited about that when you’ve beat all the top teams in the state and you’re one of the best overall. So effen weird.

Especially when they've spent their entire hockey lives beating EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata, DE, etc.

Hermantown decision makers continue to rob these kids of a chance to really show what they have against top competition when it really matters.

rainier2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:23 pm

StanleyCup55 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:56 pm I find it extremely weird that Hermantown continues to celebrate with happiness and joy after winning 11-0 in a section final after outscoring opponents 30-0 in the three games. How can you actually be excited about that when you’ve beat all the top teams in the state and you’re one of the best overall. So effen weird.

Especially when they've spent their entire hockey lives beating EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata, DE, etc.

Hermantown decision makers continue to rob these kids of a chance to really show what they have against top competition when it really matters.

I’d say Beth Clark the AD is the main one. I was hoping they would be in AA this year. Could they move after this year or is this year 1 in the 2 year cycle?

pekyman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:32 pm

rainier2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:23 pm

StanleyCup55 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:56 pm I find it extremely weird that Hermantown continues to celebrate with happiness and joy after winning 11-0 in a section final after outscoring opponents 30-0 in the three games. How can you actually be excited about that when you’ve beat all the top teams in the state and you’re one of the best overall. So effen weird.

Especially when they've spent their entire hockey lives beating EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata, DE, etc.

Hermantown decision makers continue to rob these kids of a chance to really show what they have against top competition when it really matters.

I’d say Beth Clark the AD is the main one. I was hoping they would be in AA this year. Could they move after this year or is this year 1 in the 2 year cycle?

Not sure where they are in the cycle, but it seems the Hawks might be even better next year, as scary as that sounds. Shame to see what might be the best team in the state not get a chance to prove it in AA. Especially when the head coach said he thinks they're ready, which he said a few years ago!

I agree with you. It’s not Pat unless he has been brainwashed. You never know these days in this upside down world.

Streaming this 7AA final. Sad to say but north eastern MN hockey is dead other than Hermantown. Yet they still choose to sand bag. If they move up, the area might not be considered an after thought in hockey circles. Here’s to hoping they move up for northerners prides sake.

pekyman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:57 pm I agree with you. It’s not Pat unless he has been brainwashed. You never know these days in this upside down world.

If the Hawks we’re playing tonight and won it would be the biggest victory in program history.

pekyman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:32 pm

rainier2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:23 pm

StanleyCup55 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:56 pm I find it extremely weird that Hermantown continues to celebrate with happiness and joy after winning 11-0 in a section final after outscoring opponents 30-0 in the three games. How can you actually be excited about that when you’ve beat all the top teams in the state and you’re one of the best overall. So effen weird.

Especially when they've spent their entire hockey lives beating EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata, DE, etc.

Hermantown decision makers continue to rob these kids of a chance to really show what they have against top competition when it really matters.

I’d say Beth Clark the AD is the main one. I was hoping they would be in AA this year. Could they move after this year or is this year 1 in the 2 year cycle?

This is year 1 of the 2 year cycle. Hermantown will be A again next year.

Goose21 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 8:02 pm

pekyman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:32 pm

rainier2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:23 pm

Especially when they've spent their entire hockey lives beating EP, Tonka, Edina, Wayzata, DE, etc.

Hermantown decision makers continue to rob these kids of a chance to really show what they have against top competition when it really matters.

I’d say Beth Clark the AD is the main one. I was hoping they would be in AA this year. Could they move after this year or is this year 1 in the 2 year cycle?

This is year 1 of the 2 year cycle. Hermantown will be A again next year.

Oof, just in time for another "down" group to come up, justifying staying in A. Nevermind that the "down" group will see some more top players magically show up there.

BigWorm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:58 pm Streaming this 7AA final. Sad to say but north eastern MN hockey is dead other than Hermantown. Yet they still choose to sand bag. If they move up, the area might not be considered an after thought in hockey circles. Here’s to hoping they move up for northerners prides sake.

Maybe I'm taking your statement the wrong way, but NE MN hockey is absolutely not dead. Over the past 5-6 years, Hibbing, Greenway, Virginia, Eveleth, and Denfeld have all had some excellent teams, sometimes in the top 5. I agree this year was down overall, but Denfeld is a top ten team, and they lost 11-0!!!! Hibbing was the #3 team in 2016 and lost 8-1!

Virginia and Eveleth both have strong bantam teams that will join forces next year as Rock Ridge, and Hibbing has a pee wee state champion group coming up in a few years. There are good teams and players up here, but getting to state has been near impossible because Hermantown has been able to use the Class A cheat code that Bruce Plante vociferously and publicly railed against for years.