Page 9 of 9
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:07 am
by The Exiled One
There are two odd things I notice about this year compared to last. One, more players are leaving for major juniors. And second, fewer players are leaving with college commitments in hand.
Doesn't Make Sense
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:43 am
by RoseauFan
What I don't understand is why these kids leave HS early to only dress 50% of the games or play on the 3rd or 4th line. Being from Roseau I have followed the kid that left Roseau this year after an injury filled unproductive season last year who is now hurt again. When he was dressing he was playing 3rd or 4th line. The kid from Moorhead has only played in 6 of 11 games so far this season.
How much of this is either the kid or the parents thinking their kid is so much better than they really are? I'm not saying it is right or wrong for a kid to leave early but shouldn't you at least know you are going to be playing every night on either the 1st or 2nd line?
And lastly, would you rather win a MN State High School Championship or a USHL Championship?
Re: Doesn't Make Sense
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:36 am
by O-townClown
RoseauFan wrote:And lastly, would you rather win a MN State High School Championship or a USHL Championship?
What do you think? Just remember that many (about half?) of the kids that leave are from high schools that aren't really in the mix to win everything.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:12 am
by Neuuman
wblhcky24 wrote:Ben Walker Edina victoria royals WHL per stribs david lavaque
Can anyone tell me why playing in the WHL results in forfeiture of a players' amateur status? Do the players receive a stipend or "salary"?
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:42 am
by hockeyhound16
Neuuman wrote:wblhcky24 wrote:Ben Walker Edina victoria royals WHL per stribs david lavaque
Can anyone tell me why playing in the WHL results in forfeiture of a players' amateur status? Do the players receive a stipend or "salary"?
Yes. It is one of the Canadian Pro leagues. Players are paid to play in this league. All eligibility to play college hockey in the US is forfeited.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:54 am
by Neuuman
hockeyhound16 wrote:Neuuman wrote:wblhcky24 wrote:Ben Walker Edina victoria royals WHL per stribs david lavaque
Can anyone tell me why playing in the WHL results in forfeiture of a players' amateur status? Do the players receive a stipend or "salary"?
Yes. It is one of the Canadian Pro leagues. Players are paid to play in this league. All eligibility to play college hockey in the US is forfeited.
Thanks for the info.
HM
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:42 am
by stpaul
Take Hill-Murray senior forward Andy Faust off the list. He played in 10 games for Austin in the NAHL this fall. He is one of HM's captains. Solid player. He is capable of scoring 40+ points for the Pioneers this year. He had 24 (8 goals & 16 assists) last year. His dad was on the 1983 HM state champions and his brother Willie led HM in scoring as a senior in 2010 when HM finished 3rd in the state.
Re: Doesn't Make Sense
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:51 am
by auld_skool
RoseauFan wrote:What I don't understand is why these kids leave HS early to only dress 50% of the games or play on the 3rd or 4th line. Being from Roseau I have followed the kid that left Roseau this year after an injury filled unproductive season last year who is now hurt again. When he was dressing he was playing 3rd or 4th line. The kid from Moorhead has only played in 6 of 11 games so far this season.
How much of this is either the kid or the parents thinking their kid is so much better than they really are? I'm not saying it is right or wrong for a kid to leave early but shouldn't you at least know you are going to be playing every night on either the 1st or 2nd line?
And lastly, would you rather win a MN State High School Championship or a USHL Championship?
First I want to say that I really respect the way hockey is played and coached in Roseau. If there's a model for how it should be done I think Roseau is close.
That said, I think your answer might be in what these kids want and how they best see they might achieve it. In my opinion the USHL is probably better at developing kids for the next level than most HS programs. It's not about "how much will he play this season" as much as about how good will he be at the end of the season. The USHL plays twice as many games roughly so even playing every other game will even out.
The thing about the USHL is the support the athletes get. Coaching, off ice training, equipment...almost everything is superior there. This isn't to say I advocate every kid go play there, just that it's easy to understand why some kids do.
Your question about which championship you'd rather win shows how insulated most of us are from hockey in the rest of the country. If you asked that question anywhere else the response would be overwhelmingly in favor of the USHL. Partly that's because High School hockey is done so well in Minnesota and partly it's because there aren't any teams here since the Vulcans left and most people don't care. But IMO at this particular time the USHL is the gateway to almost every higher level that most Minnesota kids aspire to.
Re: Doesn't Make Sense
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:34 pm
by foiled up
RoseauFan wrote:What I don't understand is why these kids leave HS early to only dress 50% of the games or play on the 3rd or 4th line. Being from Roseau I have followed the kid that left Roseau this year after an injury filled unproductive season last year who is now hurt again. When he was dressing he was playing 3rd or 4th line. The kid from Moorhead has only played in 6 of 11 games so far this season.
How much of this is either the kid or the parents thinking their kid is so much better than they really are? I'm not saying it is right or wrong for a kid to leave early but shouldn't you at least know you are going to be playing every night on either the 1st or 2nd line?
And lastly, would you rather win a MN State High School Championship or a USHL Championship?
Not being from Roseau I have not followed the kid that left, but making the roster on a USHL team has nothing to do with the kid or the parents "thinking the kid is so much better that they really are." Do you really think that parents or players have any say in who makes a USHL team and especially the 1st or 2nd line? Take a look at the USHL rosters and see how many kids from Minnesota make the teams, and then maybe think about going and watching a few USHL games to broaden your hockey base. I think you may realize that there are some very good hockey players from all parts of the country.
Re: Doesn't Make Sense
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:18 am
by Mailman
RoseauFan wrote:What I don't understand is why these kids leave HS early to only dress 50% of the games or play on the 3rd or 4th line. Being from Roseau I have followed the kid that left Roseau this year after an injury filled unproductive season last year who is now hurt again. When he was dressing he was playing 3rd or 4th line. The kid from Moorhead has only played in 6 of 11 games so far this season.
How much of this is either the kid or the parents thinking their kid is so much better than they really are? I'm not saying it is right or wrong for a kid to leave early but shouldn't you at least know you are going to be playing every night on either the 1st or 2nd line?
And lastly, would you rather win a MN State High School Championship or a USHL Championship?
I'd say that is a very common reason, especially regarding the parent end.
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:00 am
by RoseauFan
Foiled Up - Your reply leads me to believe A) you take everything out of context and B) you thought you were trying to me a smart a.. on a message board.
Nowhere in my comment did I say that the parents or players get to decide who makes the team and where they play. What I'm saying is, are the parents the ones who are helping convince the kid that they are "too good" for their own hockey program or the coach isn't good enough for them.
My point is, the kid left Bemidji because the program wasn't good enough for him so he came back up to Roseau. Now he leaves Roseau because this program/team isn't good enough for him either. Is it the kid thinking/saying this or the parents? That's what I'm talking about. Every parent is proud of their kid and most think their kid is better than they really are.
As far as the rest of your comment, I don't even know what you are talking about. "Go watch some games and see their are other good players in the country"...no really? I thought all US born hockey players that are any good come from MN.
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:42 am
by student of the game
RoseauFan is oversimplifying things. Kids who leave early for the USHL are generally recuited to do so and are drafted in either the futures draft or regular draft. After that they must attend tryouts and earn a spot on the protected list an ultimately play on the team. This process can take over a year from recruiting to tryouts. While parents can encourage and provide guidence to their child, ultimately it's the USHL team that is determining whether the player is ready to move up or not. Players have pleanty of time to consider their options too.
The USHL and NAHL are NOT high school teams, they are privately owned organizations who rely on ticket sales to stay alive. Coaches can be fired and replaced. They generally take great care in choosing their recuits and new players. If a player leaves high school early and earns a spot on a team, you can be assured they have the talent to do so.
Players who leave do so because they are presented with an opportunity to move to a higher level of hockey and have chosen (for whatever reason) to do so. I am sure that each player who does move on, has considered his own circumstances in the decision making process.
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:57 pm
by Mailman
student of the game wrote:RoseauFan is oversimplifying things. Kids who leave early for the USHL are generally recuited to do so and are drafted in either the futures draft or regular draft. After that they must attend tryouts and earn a spot on the protected list an ultimately play on the team. This process can take over a year from recruiting to tryouts. While parents can encourage and provide guidence to their child, ultimately it's the USHL team that is determining whether the player is ready to move up or not. Players have pleanty of time to consider their options too.
The USHL and NAHL are NOT high school teams, they are privately owned organizations who rely on ticket sales to stay alive. Coaches can be fired and replaced. They generally take great care in choosing their recuits and new players. If a player leaves high school early and earns a spot on a team, you can be assured they have the talent to do so.
Players who leave do so because they are presented with an opportunity to move to a higher level of hockey and have chosen (for whatever reason) to do so. I am sure that each player who does move on, has considered his own circumstances in the decision making process.
From what I've seen over the years, most kids could care less where they play, and it's the parents doing the "decision making process", pushing, etc.
At many levels.
In the kids best interest of course
Re: Who won't return
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:06 pm
by Maroon + Gold
Looks like Fergus Falls lost Blake Brazil - their top scorer from last season. He participated in the Advanced 16 Final 54 tournament last spring.
http://www.craigolsonsports.com/newsart ... &nid=50603
It appears he is now playing up in Alaska:
http://hometeamsonline.com/teams/defaul ... rID=263007
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:13 pm
by The Exiled One
Code: Select all
New Departures
Class Pos Player Previous Team New Team
JR F Hudson Fasching Apple Valley U17 NTDP
JR F Luke Voltin Hill-Murray U17 NTDP
JR F Zach Hartley Holy Angels Colorado Rampage AAA
JR F CJ Smith Holy Angels Austin-NAHL
JR F Blake Brazil Fergus Falls Palmer HS - AK
SR F Mario Lucia Wayzata Penticton (Notre Dame)
SR F Eric Brenk Moorhead Sioux Falls-USHL
SR F Josh Erickson Roseau Sioux City-USHL
SR F AJ Michaelson Apple Valley Waterloo-USHL (Minnesota)
SR F Eric Carlson Albert Lea Fairbainks-NAHL
SR F Zac McCarver North St. Paul Sioux Falls-USHL
SR F Gage Torrel Monticello Alexandria-NAHL
SR F Ben Walker Edina Victoria-WHL
SO D Travis Wood Hill-Murray Erie-OHL
JR D Gage Ausmus East Grand Forks U17 NTDP
SR D Neal Goff Stillwater Fargo-USHL
SR D Vince Pedrie Apple Valley Omaha-USHL
SR D Justin Brown Saint Louis Park Milwaukee Admirals AAA 18U
SR D Cody Corbett Stillwater Edmonton-WHL
JR G Hunter Miska North Branch U17 NTDP
SR G Charlie Lindgren Lakeville North Sioux Falls-USHL
not returning
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:06 pm
by rudy
Not to make more work for someone else just to satisfy my own curiosity, but ...
I wonder what a list would look like if it was not only those who have newly moved on, but those who moved on earlier from Minnesota but would still be MN high school hockey eligible this year?
Such a list might give us a better view of what the total talent is not playing MN high school hockey that could have been in this newly started season.
A guy like Logan Nelson (right?), who is from Rogers and is now in the WHL, comes to mind.
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:06 pm
by foiled up
RoseauFan wrote:Foiled Up - Your reply leads me to believe A) you take everything out of context and B) you thought you were trying to me a smart a.. on a message board.
Nowhere in my comment did I say that the parents or players get to decide who makes the team and where they play. What I'm saying is, are the parents the ones who are helping convince the kid that they are "too good" for their own hockey program or the coach isn't good enough for them.
My point is, the kid left Bemidji because the program wasn't good enough for him so he came back up to Roseau. Now he leaves Roseau because this program/team isn't good enough for him either. Is it the kid thinking/saying this or the parents? That's what I'm talking about. Every parent is proud of their kid and most think their kid is better than they really are.
RoseauFan: You must be very close to the family and have inside knowledge of why he left Bemidji and why he left Roseau. How do you know it was because either program wasn't "good enough for him". Maybe it had to do with a family decisions that involved many different things that only the family discussed. Maybe the kid made the team and the coach wanted to go and the family supported that decision. Maybe the kid and the family talked to many different people including former players and coaches and as a result made the decision to play in the USHL if he he made the team. What is the right decision for this player? I guess time will tell, but I don't think this is the right place to bash a kid or a family for making a decision that you dont agree with. If you really want to find out the whole story, since you are from Roseau and have followed the player, I'm sure you know the family well enough to give them a call and let them know how you feel. You may find out that you don't have all of the facts.
As far as the rest of your comment, I don't even know what you are talking about. "Go watch some games and see their are other good players in the country"...no really? I thought all US born hockey players that are any good come from MN.
Re: not returning
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:24 pm
by The Exiled One
rudy wrote:Not to make more work for someone else just to satisfy my own curiosity, but ...
I wonder what a list would look like if it was not only those who have newly moved on, but those who moved on earlier from Minnesota but would still be MN high school hockey eligible this year?
Such a list might give us a better view of what the total talent is not playing MN high school hockey that could have been in this newly started season.
A guy like Logan Nelson (right?), who is from Rogers and is now in the WHL, comes to mind.
Last year's list is on the page before this one. The list from two years ago should be available with a quick search. One caveat though, the list is only for players who LEFT HS HOCKEY. So, if they left before playing varsity, they aren't included. I believe that was the case with Nelson, was it not?
who left
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:43 pm
by rudy
Good point about leaving before HS hockey. the parameter, then, should be who left when the next season would have most likely been their first year in HS and who among those would still be a HS player now. My guess is that would add another 10-12 to the newly departed that we see in this chat string.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:22 pm
by Rookie Scout
EH wrote:mghockey18 wrote:You have plenty of time to play Jr's. To be quite honest, the level of play in the NA has gone down a lot in the past 2 years, so the level of play between the NA and HS (especially Elite League) isn't as big as you would think.
Good point.
That's what I'm saying. I have seen this kids play a few times and he's to good of a player for Albert Lea High school but not ready for the NAHL. Most kids use a third year to prepare for JRS so you can make more of a impact your last two years in JRS. The system can backfire on players or parents that push there kids. If you have a extra year use it to your advantage to get stronger by playing your level of play.
Example ( 3 year plan ) = 1. Leave high school early , go to AAA , play NAHL or USHL , D-1.
2. Leave high school early as a invite to USHL , D-1.
The NAHL gets watered down each year. Look at how many teams they have now than say 3 to 5 years ago. The more teams they add the weaker it gets.
Look at the USHL. It will only keep a smaller number of teams. That's why it's a stronger system. I think the NAHL should be a smaller and stronger feeder system for the USHL.
Looks like poster EH hit the bullseye on this on. I have been following this player to see his progress since he left Albert Lea high school early to play with the NAHL Fairbanks , and then was traded to NAHL Jansville & then released. Now playing on a Tier 3 team in Clouqet ,MN.
http://www.wildernesshockey.com/roster/ ... ason=82112
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:34 pm
by Rookie Scout
EH wrote:The Exiled One wrote:Code: Select all
New Departures
Class Pos Player Previous Team New Team
JR F Hudson Fasching Apple Valley U17 NTDP
JR F Luke Voltin Hill-Murray U17 NTDP
JR F Zach Hartley? Holy Angels Colorado Rampage AAA
SR F Mario Lucia Wayzata Penticton
SR F Eric Brenk Moorhead Sioux Falls-USHL
SR F Josh Erickson Roseau Sioux City-USHL
SR F AJ Michaelson Apple Valley Waterloo-USHL
SR F Eric Carlson Albert Lea Fairbainks-NAHL
SO D Travis Wood Hill-Murray Erie-OHL
JR D Gage Ausmus East Grand Forks U17 NTDP
SR D Vince Pedrie Apple Valley TBD
JR G Hunter Miska North Branch U17 NTDP
SR G Charlie Lindgren Lakeville North Sioux Falls-USHL
We're up to 13. I imagine we'll fall short of last year... that was a brutal off-season.
Any more info about the Hermantown kids?
Looks like the Albert Lea Carlson kid might have made the jump to early or to high of a level. I have seen this kid play a few times and he has good talent. He's way to good for Albert Lea , but in my OPINION he would benefit more in the long run from playing at the AAA , MJHL or NAHL3 level his first year of the three years in JRs. I think his talent would have a better chance to grow. Time will tell. GOOD LUCK to the kid.
More info.