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That'd be great.

So we seed the section tournaments, but not the state tournament? Why not state? If you are gonna seed "none of em" then why stop at state? Who would want to see a 8AA tournament with Moorhead vs Roseau in a quarterfinal with Buffalo getting a bye? Its stupid, seeding gives the best opportunity for the two best teams to play in the championship. Also, seed all 8 teams, and the way they do it now is great. Have the coaches see everyother team 1-7. Its the best way to do things imo.

Section teams are seaded using in most cases head-to-head match ups, records against common opponents, and in some cases conference standings.
State tournament seedings use some of the previously mentioned, but mostly it is hype, reputation, and politics.
This is high school, seeding only 4 teams this year sure seemed to provide motivation for the underdogs. It might have also caused some teams to look ahead. I think the kids should decide who the state champs are, and not a bunch of balding middle age men who think the tourney is for them.

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Section teams are seaded using in most cases head-to-head match ups, records against common opponents, and in some cases conference standings.
State tournament seedings use some of the previously mentioned, but mostly it is hype, reputation, and politics.
This is high school, seeding only 4 teams this year sure seemed to provide motivation for the underdogs. It might have also caused some teams to look ahead. I think the kids should decide who the state champs are, and not a bunch of balding middle age men who think the tourney is for them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

That's sad you couldn't have said it better. Many section teams have no games against teams in their section, or at least very few, and get seeded horribly. You're always going to have that unless you use something like PS2 to seed.

HShockeywatcher wrote:That's sad you couldn't have said it better. Many section teams have no games against teams in their section, or at least very few, and get seeded horribly. You're always going to have that unless you use something like PS2 to seed.

Oh, no you don't. Leave PS2 out of this.

I think the problem some have (mainly from outside the Metro, and this has already been voiced) with seeding teams in the State Tournament is that they believe Metro coaches don't have a very good feel for outstate schools.

The example you seem to be making here (Rogers) is a very rare case where a team set their schedule based on a mistaken assumption on which section they'd be playing in. They'll have some section opponents on their schedule next year. Seeding sections by coaches works pretty well nearly all of the time, despte what the usual whiners bluster about their favorite team being screwed. On the other hand, at the State level it sure didn't appear to work very well this season in Class AA, did it?

Let them seed the state participants in sports such as soccer and basketball and leave hockey out of this. The old rotating basis of having each section playing every other section once every seven years in the quarterfinals was good enough. Tradition, remember?

Just my opinion, of course.

Lee

HShockeywatcher wrote:That's sad you couldn't have said it better. Many section teams have no games against teams in their section, or at least very few, and get seeded horribly. You're always going to have that unless you use something like PS2 to seed.

My son has a PS2. He would like to upgrade to a PS3 or Xbox. Last time I checked they had NHL'07 but not MSHL.
Let the kids play and they will show you the champ is. You have to beat the best to be the best.

Yes, Rogers is one example, so are Irondale, Robbinsdale Copper, Holy Angels, Benilde, Northern Lakes, St Francis, Worthington, La Crescent, St Paul Academy, and St Paul Saints.

And those are only the teams with very few. Many other teams have fewer than the rest of the teams in their section. In addition, many teams only play certain teams in their section. So ranking teams isn't an exactly science. And you're right, many people think that coaches in other parts of the state wouldn't make good votes, which probably isn't true in most cases.

As was stated before, not many would agree to not seed sections, so it doesn't make to not seed the next level either.

My point about PS2, if you guys really didn't catch on is that it's an unbiased system. Anything else isn't "fair". I wasn't saying to use PS2 exactly, but a system like that MSHSL would set up would probably be best.

I FEEL THEY EITHER SHOULD SEED ALL THE TEAMS OR NONE AT ALL. ALTHOUGH SEEDING THE TOP 4 SHOULD MAKE GAMES CLOSER AND MORE INTERESTING.

If you are OK with just seeding four teams at state, then you should also be OK when the MSHSL decides to use a random draw for sectional tournaments after determining the top four seeds.

The sections have to be seeded. Its single elimination hockey and the 2 top teams should never play each other in the first round. The regular season should count for something.

The state tournament doesnt have to be seeded but should be. The state tournamnet doesnt have teams with 9-16 records in it. Its the top teams from the 8 sections, who have won seeded tournaments. So, the 'need to seed' isnt as great.

But seeding the state tournamanet is a good idea. I think it adds interest. I like the idea of the 2 top teams being in seperate brackets instead of playing at 11:00 AM on Thursday. I realize that who the 2 top teams are can be up for debate and there wont be a clear top 2 or 4 every year. But so what? An 'inaccurate' seeding job will be at least as good as picking it out of a hat.

I am OK with just doing the top 4. Its a good compromise. If they do all 8, I dont care.

I have yet to hear a good argument against seeding the state tournament.

pipersniper12 wrote:I FEEL THEY EITHER SHOULD SEED ALL THE TEAMS OR NONE AT ALL. ALTHOUGH SEEDING THE TOP 4 SHOULD MAKE GAMES CLOSER AND MORE INTERESTING.

Way to really put yourself out there and pick three of the four options.

They have discovered that with only 150 some HS hockey teams in MN the powers that be are only good enough to seed the top 4 teams after sections are done....and after that it gets fuzzy
The bad part about seeding is that you put those powers that be in a position be it (political or whatever) to choose the teams seed, and that tends to lead to skepticism and disagreement.

If you can seed 4 then you can seed 8.

Otherwise draw them all and the cream will rise to the top anyway, so what if by some chance, what everyone thinks is the 2 best teams play sooner then the final game, you have to assume the outcome would be no different.
And with upsets and all that... it's pretty wide open anyway.

It's called the luck of the draw...and at least there's no lobbying or influence in the decision......is there??

How bout you get some guy with a PhD in stats to put together something like PS2 (something like it, I'm not suggesting we use it) so that the rankings would be completely unbiased? This isn't something where we should care about hurting people's feelings. No one would argue it would be okay for one of the #1 seeds in the NCAA basketball bracket to get paired up with a #9 seed first round. The tourny was great this year, but the #1 team should never be paired up with the #5 team first. Edina worked all season long and earned the #1 spot. Along with a #1 spot you earn playing the lowest ranked team.

HShockeywatcher wrote:How bout you get some guy with a PhD in stats to put together something like PS2 (something like it, I'm not suggesting we use it) so that the rankings would be completely unbiased? This isn't something where we should care about hurting people's feelings. No one would argue it would be okay for one of the #1 seeds in the NCAA basketball bracket to get paired up with a #9 seed first round. The tourny was great this year, but the #1 team should never be paired up with the #5 team first. Edina worked all season long and earned the #1 spot. Along with a #1 spot you earn playing the lowest ranked team.

So what if # 8 beats # 1?? then they got it all wrong.....right?


I still say draw them.....it's honest and unbiased.

No, they didn't get it wrong. It was an upset. That's why we play the game.

A situation that happened in the AA basketball tournament to Maple River shouldn't happen. They beat the teams who would've (most likely) gotten the #1 and #2 seeds in the quarters and semis only to lose to another team. Yes, they lost the game and came in 2nd, but this is probably one of the only tournaments where you can beat the 1st and 2nd teams and not come in first.

What if # 8 wins the tournament??? all upsets?

For that matter what if any team between 5 and 8 seed win?

It doesn't matter you have to beat em all......I like the draw ya never know what your gonna get...and no one else does either....these are the best teams out of the sections..and isn't that what state is for? to decide who's best in state by the outcome of the games, not saying ahead of time.. team z is #1 and team k is #8

Can't Never Tried wrote:What if # 8 wins the tournament??? all upsets?

For that matter what if any team between 5 and 8 seed win?

It doesn't matter you have to beat em all......I like the draw ya never know what your gonna get...and no one else does either....these are the best teams out of the sections..and isn't that what state is for? to decide who's best in state by the outcome of the games, not saying ahead of time.. team z is #1 and team k is #8

I'd rather the top two rated teams not play on Thursday afternoon while I'm at work. Seeding works. You can't use any one year as an example. I think just seeding the top 4 is fine.

Yeah, it does matter who you have to play. That's the whole point of it. Using a draw gives certain teams an easier time than others. By using a draw, we are saying that all teams are equal, which we all know is untrue.

Yes, if they seeded all 8 and the 8 seed won, they would be all upset. Just like if the #16 seed won the NCAA basketball tourney, ti would be all upsets.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Yeah, it does matter who you have to play. That's the whole point of it. Using a draw gives certain teams an easier time than others. By using a draw, we are saying that all teams are equal, which we all know is untrue.

Yes, if they seeded all 8 and the 8 seed won, they would be all upset. Just like if the #16 seed won the NCAA basketball tourney, ti would be all upsets.

Or they got it wrong!

So your saying that seeding is infalable? and that those that seed them know who #1 thru 8 are before the tourney? Why play then? to prove them wrong?
Did that pan out this year?
Everyone is 0-0 going in.
Yes, the fact that what people think is the #1 and #2 teams, could face off early in the tournament is something that probably most people don't like, so there is your argument...but upsets happen and you end up with the same thing in the end anyway, the team that plays the best thru the tourney wins....#1 and #2 don't always end up playing Sat. night.

Oh yeah and playing well all year gets you to the X that's the reward.

CNT, why do you accept a random draw but get in all in a tizzy if they seed them "wrong"? Why are we so afraid of people making decisions abut these things?

Thats what I dont get.

Seeding 4 is fine because it is a tournament whose participants have won seeded tournamnets to get there and are deservng teams. Its not an invitational tournament like the NCAAs.

The answer to the question "Why not seed them all?' is, I think ,: because you dont have to.

You seed 4 because year in and year out it will make it a better tournament.

packerboy wrote:CNT, why do you accept a random draw but get in all in a tizzy if they seed them "wrong"? Why are we so afraid of people making decisions abut these things?

Thats what I dont get.

Seeding 4 is fine because it is a tournament whose participants have won seeded tournamnets to get there and are deservng teams. Its not an invitational tournament like the NCAAs.

The answer to the question "Why not seed them all?' is, I think ,: because you dont have to.

You seed 4 because year in and year out it will make it a better tournament.

A tizzy?? PB
I really couldn't care less...I mean it doesn't matter what any of us want or think to MSHSL anyway....
Good point though a random draw can be as good as someone getting it wrong in seeding so what's the diff.
In a random draw there is no influence or someone making the decisions that people can complain about...luck of the draw... all fair.

That's also why I said earlier just pick the top 2 so then you have the majority in a blind draw while insuring that 1 and 2 don't knock each other out right away.....Got to read all the post in here to get it.

But really PB I was "bored" so I thought I'd throw a few random arguments at it to get HSwatcher all riled up but it looks like other fish are biting today too

Like Lee, I am for maintaining tradition with the old rotation. The Sections, however, must be seeded, because we want the best teams to have the best opportunity to get to the State Tournament. But once there, lets determine it on the ice,....with no advantages given by old guys in a board room, or a computer program for that matter. Let the players decide it, with no additional advantages to any team.

With the exception of a team or two each year, the teams that are in the State Tournament are all capable of winning the championship. the team that can win all three games, wins the championship. Why give any team, when they are all relatively good teams anyway, any advantage? Furthermore, why introduce another exterior variable, especially a biased human element, or a machine? Let the players decide the champion on the ice as much as possible.

Nothing wrong with a championship caliber game on Thursday. The game may be even better, with both teams with fresh legs. Often times the semi finals on Friday night are some of the best games. Bottom line, the champ has to win all three, sometimes the toughest may be game one, or game two.

You guys watch the whole tournament, right,....or do you just watch the championship game? If the latter, you have missed a lot of very good games.

P.S. Neut, with the time you spend on this board, I assume while "at work", how about taking Thursday off, and watch. Just a suggestion.

In a random draw there is no influence or someone making the decisions that people can complain about...luck of the draw... all fair.

Sure its all luck of the draw but all fair? That can be debated.

I think we sometimes make bad policies and defend them by saying its "all fair" and "its the same for every one".

It seems we dont care how horsecrap the result is so long as we can label it all fair and the same for everyone.

I think we sacrifice quality a lot of times so we can be sanctimonious about the process.