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mnb327 wrote:Need to be careful, don't want to screw it up for all like basketball has done.

I agree move up to AA won't have problem with tournament there will be no talk then about A vs. AA.

Plus can chat all you want MSHSL controls tournament.

wannagototherink wrote:

mnb327 wrote:Need to be careful, don't want to screw it up for all like basketball has done.

I agree move up to AA won't have problem with tournament there will be no talk then about A vs. AA.

Plus can chat all you want MSHSL controls tournament.

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size. Unfortunately, STA or Duluth Marshall isn't a "community" school. they don't draw their players from a town of 2 - 3 thousand people (if that) like a true single A team does. Infact I would be interested to see how many different communities made up the STA or DM teams. This BS about school enrollment is garbage. If I start a school and have only 50 students that attend and of those 50 students 20 are the top players hand picked from several different communities than does it really matter what my schools enrollment is?


Private schools should either be in their own tournament or forced to play AA. If not, you should expect to see the A tournament consist of the same teams every year........Duluth Marshall, STA, Breck, Blake, Totino, Lourdes....am I missing any? I'm sure I am, and I'm sure some of these teams play in the same section, but I think you can get my point. That is not what the A tournament was intended for....

As far as the start of this post...Penalty Shot, I don't like. I would rather see the tournament go back to Tier I/Tier II. At least that way teams matchups were decided based on performance.

wannagototherink wrote:

mnb327 wrote:Need to be careful, don't want to screw it up for all like basketball has done.

I agree move up to AA won't have problem with tournament there will be no talk then about A vs. AA.

Plus can chat all you want MSHSL controls tournament.

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size. Unfortunately, STA or Duluth Marshall isn't a "community" school. they don't draw their players from a town of 2 - 3 thousand people (if that) like a true single A team does. Infact I would be interested to see how many different communities made up the STA or DM teams. This BS about school enrollment is garbage. If I start a school and have only 50 students that attend and of those 50 students 20 are the top players hand picked from several different communities than does it really matter what my schools enrollment is?


Private schools should either be in their own tournament or forced to play AA. If not, you should expect to see the A tournament consist of the same teams every year........Duluth Marshall, STA, Breck, Blake, Totino, Lourdes....am I missing any? I'm sure I am, and I'm sure some of these teams play in the same section, but I think you can get my point. That is not what the A tournament was intended for....

As far as the start of this post...Penalty Shot, I don't like. I would rather see the tournament go back to Tier I/Tier II. At least that way teams matchups were decided based on performance.

wannagototherink wrote:

mnb327 wrote:

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size...............................................................................

This BS about school enrollment is garbage.

Thats typical of the circle we go in whenever the topic is brought up.

"Class A was meant for small schools but remember enrollment size means nothing in hockey"



But thats the nature of the beast. There is no way u are going to have a class system in hockey that makes any sense so long as you have arbitrary criteria for class assignment.

Adding arbitrary stuff like "All privates should play in AA" is just as bad. Really, so St Bernards should play in AA because they are private and Roseau can play A?

If you are going to have a 2 class system in hockey that makes sense, you have to have a hybrid type of class assignment criteria that was originally proposed but rejected by the MSHSL because it would have required thought.

packerboy wrote:

wannagototherink wrote:

mnb327 wrote:

What gets lost in this whole discussion regarding the tournament is...The A tournament was created so teams like Mankato West, Virginia, Greenway, and other small communities could compete on a level playing field with schools from communities of similiar size...............................................................................

This BS about school enrollment is garbage.

Thats typical of the circle we go in whenever the topic is brought up.

"Class A was meant for small schools but remember enrollment size means nothing in hockey"



But thats the nature of the beast. There is no way u are going to have a class system in hockey that makes any sense so long as you have arbitrary criteria for class assignment.

Adding arbitrary stuff like "All privates should play in AA" is just as bad. Really, so St Bernards should play in AA because they are private and Roseau can play A?

If you are going to have a 2 class system in hockey that makes sense, you have to have a hybrid type of class assignment criteria that was originally proposed but rejected by the MSHSL because it would have required thought.

Yes ALL Private Schools should be required to play AA hockey. St. Bernards or any private school that may not have the resources to recruit now, but who's to say they won't next year or the year after. Again, if you are drawing kids from an unlimited area you should be required to play AA. There is nothin arbitrary about it. Hell, here is an even better idea, we (society) could work toward the timeless goal of getting everyone a trophy if you had the private schools in one tournament, than AA and A for the public schools. Can you imagine, all those extra trophies getting to those kids whose parent just can't live with being told their little jimmy and johny's just aren't quite champions. Three tournaments all those lives you could change by getting 160 more kids to the "special" event?


...Give me a break. It won't happen, but the only good option is going back to one tournament.

Doug Mackenzie wrote:With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Doug Mackenzie wrote:With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

mainefan wrote:

Doug Mackenzie wrote:With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Don't whine about tuition if the kid has talent the privates will find the scholarships for him/her. This happens all the time. So then, who would you choose if a bunch of monies became available to send your superstar hotshot hockey player to let's say Hill-Murray or would you send him to St. paul Johnson for free?

wannagototherink wrote:
Seriously???? Thats your argument? Well for starters, everyone in the Private schools are there from somewhere else.

Community based teams are not going to have the top to bottom talent a private school is going to have on a regular basis.

At the MAHA Bantam A tournament a couple of weeks ago, I saw coaches from.....Benilde, Blake, Holy Angels, STA, Cretin, Hill Murray, Breck and Providence.

I did not see coaches from any other high schools there, other than the ones who had their community teams playing. Of course Eric Aus was there, Centennial was playing, Giles was there cause Edina was playing. I didn't see South St. Paul or St. Paul Johnson, or Henry Sibley, or Burnsville, or Woodbury and countless other schools. Those guys don't show up at that event but coaches from almost 10 private schools were there and that is only the ones I saw.

Give me a break...You can't compare community/public schools to private schools.

How many of the kids playing on STA this year live with in a five mile radius of that school? How many playing for Edina live within a five mile radius of Edina High School? I bet the numbers are staggering. What do you think the furthest away someone drives to go to school at Woodbury?

How about Hill....actually, how many kids driving to Hill have to cross the state border to get to school from Wisconsin. How about Duluth Marshall, they have kids on their team that grew up 3 hours away. Alexandria, Virgina, Moose Lake...It is a joke.

I would love to see how many of these people would be sending their hockey players to these schools for "education" if they weren't top hockey programs. Do public schools recruit...absolutely, do they have kids move in to play...absolutely. Is there roster made up of kids from 15 different community programs.........no, and that is the difference.

I think once this new transfer rules has taken hold for a couple of years, you'll see a lot of private schools go away never to be seen from again. The bottom line is not everyone is playing on a level playing field.

Your argument about public schools being free so they have a better chance of getting kids in may make sense in a rationale world, but the hockey world is far from a rationale one.[/quote]

That we can agree on

Doug Mackenzie wrote:

mainefan wrote:

Doug Mackenzie wrote:With open enrollment, ANY school can draw players from an unlimited area.

Many public schools get players from outside their district as well. (Warroad? Elk River?) So to say private schools have an advantage in this sense is innaccurate. In fact public schools may have an advantage here. How? Let's look at this scenario:

Jimmy in a very good hockey player that lives in St. Paul. He wants to play hockey with other players that are at his level and have his same passion for the game. He and his parents don't see the local public school as a good option, so they start looking at other local schools. He could go to; Roseville for FREE, White Bear for FREE, or say Tartan for FREE. Also, he could attend Hill-Murray for $8,000 a year or Cretin for $8,200 a year.

or even if they were looking for a "second tier" program....St. Paul Johnson (Free), North St. Paul (Free)....St. Bernard's ($7,200)

tell me how the private school has the advantage here?

Don't whine about tuition if the kid has talent the privates will find the scholarships for him/her. This happens all the time. So then, who would you choose if a bunch ofShow me an instance of this happening. Not something you heard third hand, but something you know for a fact (can be proven). If you can give me a name, a school, who the donor was and an amount of $, I just might change my mind on the subject monies became available to send your superstar hotshot hockey player to let's say Hill-Murray or would you send him to St. paul Johnson for free?

.

BTW, I'm not whining about the tuition. What I was saying is that any kid can go to any school. I don't see how a school that costs thousands, has a built in advantage over a school that is free.

Penalty Shot wrote:Heh guys this was one of my reasons for posting my idea (first post on page 1). No one can get it perfect. There are arguments in every post that hold water and arguments that are far from what the actualities are. My suggestion that to get to state where each section would have the (smaller, tier1, single A whatever you want to call that class) play down to two teams and then play the (larger, AA, or whatever) two teams for two births at the tourney provides a format where every team that has been at state the last 5 years whether A or AA would still have a dream game to get there. How much more would a victory over Duluth East to get to state mean to Duluth Marshall (Dont start the argument they should be playing each other anyway. They SHOULD be but dirty politics are there and I do not blame East for not scheduling Marshall and I also understand what a great game it would be. Again there is no right answer when politics are involved). 16 teams could be tough to handle but could be a lot of fun, create at least as much revenue, and potentially take a great event and add substanially to it. Someone mentions that the single A tourney was meant for teams like Mankato West. They would have had a legitimate shot at the AA tourney this year especially if they would have had 2 teams from their section (Again the 16 team format). In addition when smaller less competitive teams come to state they are still getting drilled, and probably would be by most teams that play Friday afternoon in the Semi-Finals. Marshall, St. Thomas, Warroad would not be accused of being "trophy hunters". Talk about the time when if your team made it to state it was a cause for a major celebration let Warroad get their every 5 years and bring the party wagon down instead of every year and having people question the integrity of one of the most storied programs in the state. It has been mentioned that program supporters have paid kids way into private schools (there have been abuses in the public schools as well). Has it happened? I know it has and sometimes there are great reasons that truly benefit a kid both for hockey as well as for more important reasons. And there are times where it is flat out a hockey scholorship which is unfortunate as there are kids who need and deserve the help alot more. I do not beleive there has been a lot of recruiting by coaches in the last 5 years but I do beleive parents have recruited, I think coaches have been open to accecpting and encouraging open enrollment kids when contacted, but I think the biggest recruiters are the programs themselves and the traditions some of the teams and coaches have. Forget the arguments that cant be won. Could the 16 team format take alot of that away? I don't know. In addition all people that want to talk about the popularity of the A tourney, what do you think attendance would be like if it were held on a seperate weekend? Not trying to be nasty but I think they should recognize a tremendous amount of the A tourney's success comes from piggybacking on the AA tourney. Ask scouts how many would go to the single A tourney on a seperate weekend? The answer might surprise you.

wannagototherink wrote:The bottom line is the high school league went to a two tier/class tournament to give smaller schools a chance to get there and experience the tournament. The plan has backfired and part of me says good, cause they never should have messed with the tournament in the first place.

packerboy wrote: In a lot of peoples minds, it has backfired because the poor witto schools that they thought it (Class A) was created for, arent winning it.

The first 6-7 years it was all good. A small northern team won it every year except 1 and then it was Red Wing. Everybody is happy.

Now its been dominated by metro privates and people dont like that because they think that privates have a big advantage and shouldnt be allowed to play in A. So, for those fans it has backfired.

For everybody else, its a growing , successful tournament with maybe some more upside in attendence.

packerboy wrote:
I dunno about that.

It sounds good but is it reality?

Has Crookston, Little Falls and Albert Lea just been lazy?

Will DM and STA inspire those programs to go on to glory?

I dont think so.

pistol wrote:I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.

pistol wrote:I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.

pistol wrote:I love high school hockey.

I am blessed that my former high school has been one of the top teams for my whole life.

Hill-Murray is the definition of "community-based," because how much more close can people be who share faith-based values?

What is your "community" based on? The government? Wasted tax dollars? People you never even see? The neighbor you can't stand, because he is Catholic?

It's too bad that bored bigotry encourages shut-ins to slander Catholics with allegations of dishonesty, instead of participating in the so-called "community" to make it as top-notch as Hill-Murray's programs.